Add your comments, questions or general discussion about the April Contest entries as well as the contest itself here...

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

Correct. Presumably they'd use a real frame.

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

Added my entry, but have to say that getting an 8M file down to 100K has lost any texture and detail that was in the image. The image posted has posterised quite noticeably because of this. I have to ask if the 100K limit is sufficient for judging a retouch of this nature on anything but the most superficial impression.

We were expecting heavy cropping, etc., to get the stylized romantic portrait. That's why the original is at such high resolution. It never occurred to me that people might just leave it as-is.

I was wondering about that. The colorful window could be something that the couple would want in the picture. But you'd have to know what the people were looking for, overall.

Cedwar

Just a friendly reminder that in this contest you are the neighborhood photo retoucher and your goal is to present this couple with the best possible wedding portrait.

Take your time to look over the photo and decide what needs to be done…
How’s the lighting and composition? Does the color need to be corrected? Are there any distracting elements, should the bride be closer, should you crop the image and so on. Should it be a black & white, selective color, or full color? Do you want to diffuse it, add sparkles to their eyes, add cupids flying around their heads (well hopeful not the cupids -- you’d probably get fired, but you get the idea).

Now since this is a contest, we are not going to tell you exactly what to do. That's where your creative talents come to play. What you decide to do is up to you; it’s your call. Just approach this like the bride and groom are your clients. This is a treasured memory for them and you need to decide what needs to be done to the photo to give them the best quality portrait possible.

I didn't quite leave it as is, but obviously I didn't crop tightly either. It appears if I want to display anything like an acceptable image, I will have to crop really tight, but if everyone does that then there'll be little variety in anyone's entries.

I'm all for variety!

I'm waiting for the day (well, not "waiting", I intend to enter the contest), but anticipating the day that contests can be 200k as challenges are. 100k is just not sufficient to portray any kind of quality work.

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

That might be a valid point. A person already entered can see things others have done, or something they might have overlooked, and keep changing until they have all the ideas of others combined into their image.
kiska

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

But, also, if you wait to the very end to post an entry, you can still 'borrow' others' ideas. It's a problem, either way. I think I will wait till near the deadline. I was going to improve the full lenghth portrait, already had, when new posts suggested a more close-up version. Now, not certain which way to go.

Another forum (Innographx) I belong to just had a contest. No entries were 'published' until the voting began. All entries were then assigned numbers. You voted with a number and it was done. Very 'clean'. No tweaking of entries,no borrowing, etc.

But from what I saw of the colorizing discussions, this site does not have that capability. BUT, the moderator at INNO used a free image posting site to post entries for the voting. Didn't someone here do that with the previous contest??

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

Keep entires hidden until voting.
Assign numbers instead of names.
Publish entries in a gallery for easy viewing.
Allow all "registered" members to vote.

All those are excellent ideas.

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

I think Vikki would be honoured if someone tried to copy or use some of her techniques, however, many can follow but few can lead. I changed my image at least 20 times in the first contest and look where it got me.

Dave

Sometimes people might not go back and check for changes.

Since editing was expressly allowed in the Mar. contest and nothing to the contrary was spelled out for this one, I don't think it should be an issue until the rules are changed. I didn't notice excessive editing in Mar. and most of those seemed to be as a result of mis-understandings about the contest. As for hiding entries until voting time, I would think this would negatively impact the interest generated in these contests (and the contest discussions). I personally enjoy checking-out the new entries as they dribble-in over the course of the month (not sure alot of people have the time or energy to evaluate all 40+ entries in one swell foop).

Chris,

If you don't want to change your entry, that's your choice. I changed mine because the original 100K posting did not reflect the work I had put into it.

So I chose a tighter crop and re-modelled picture as I felt it showed my work better.

My choice.

I did not "borrow" anyone else's ideas as is readily seen if you look at the "changed" submission.

If you don't wish others to borrow any of your ideas, don't submit your entry till nearer the last day of entry.

I've now finished with mine, if anyone wishes to borrow any of my ideas, they are more than welcome. I still see this as a friendly and open competition. It will not affect me in the least if others change their entry as often as they wish, that's their choice.

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

I'd suggest waiting until the voting period starts before actually deciding on your top 5. Only one entry is allowed per person, but they can change that one entry as many times as they like up until the thread is locked and voting period begins.

Maybe the advantages and dis-advantages of editing balance out? Whether I use it or not, I take great comfort in the edit button - it allows me to sleep at night without worrying that I've over-looked the spinach on the bride's teeth, or the groom's open fly.

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

Maybe the advantages and dis-advantages of editing balance out? Whether I use it or not, I take great comfort in the edit button - it allows me to sleep at night without worrying that I've over-looked the spinach on the bride's teeth, or the groom's open fly.

Doug you made me laugh! :lol:

Don’t let a contest change the intent of this site. I think the real key that you need to remember here is that RetouchPro is for learning and more importantly learning from each other. The contest is just a bit more incentive to get more people involved…and more people means more ideas that can be shared. :)

Quite simply, RetouchPRO is a resource for anyone, professional or hobbyist, who is interested in photo retouching, restoration, and manipulation. It is a place to learn, to teach, to share, to connect, and generally to talk to others with the same interests.

No problems T, I was not really upset by Chris's comments, just expressing my own. I know him to be a fair and reasonable person from reading his past postings. I see this contest as a little bit of fun, and whilst I give it my best try, do not take it too seriously. I am more than happy to share information on anything I've done, and am sure that others here feel the same.

I agree completely with T Paul. You took the words out of my mouth. I think having the contests is a great thing and that having only those who enter allowed to vote is a good thing because it gets more people to enter, gives them more of a reason to at least try it. It is the only way to learn. And I love the extra incentive to try new things as well. :D

Dawn

I had asked during the first contest if a link could be made to view a larger version of the image.
T-Paul wrote back yes IF you uploaded your image to RetouchPRO in the format provided in the rules.
So those of you who want to keep a full protrait, and have access to a hosting site this could be a good work around --- just remember you must UPLOAD your image to Retouch also.

Just one point. I posted my retouch and noted that its appearance was different from what I saw when I used the save for web command in photoshop. So I edited it and increased the contrast. I guess the point is that the poster should be able to edit his or her photos within a short time period of posting it.

Personally, I'll upload my entry at the last minute because I can't stop tweaking. It's a curse.
Kudos to all who have posted early for whatever reason.

You are right about that. It seems that these projects can always use improvement and the initial post leaves a lot to be desired. You have a good idea. My method is to avoid looking at the picture as much as possible. ha.

Well, I feel dumb. I did not know that I could go back and fix a few things on my image in the March contest. I had so many things that I wanted to go back and repair. I don't mind that it it's okay to go back and do a little editing. Sometimes the picture looks different when you post it and it needs some fixing.

Cathy

Cathy i wouldnt worry about last months, i really like your april contest picture.

Hello All,

First, Congratulation Vicki on your March win: Well done!

I do have a few questions about this area of "retouching". As I indicated in March, I am new to all of this and so am having a little difficulty trying to determine the "parameters" of "photo retouching.

My efforts had me moving quickly into what i would define as photo-art. or if I reworked it that little too much, strokes and plasticity or colorization versus photographic WOW - Hue and sat.

What distinguishes photo-art / colorization and hue-sat tweaks from photohgraphic enhancement. Looking at the outstanding work in the gallery I see those traditionally viewed as photo enhancement: black and white / sepia tones/ sharpening, blurred backgrounds; "artistic improvements", cropping, etc..... At the same time there are also colorizations and photo-art or perhaps improvements that seem to cross the photo-enhancement boundary - with my limited understanding.

While I like /admire the variety and interpretations, how do the judges define what is within the realms of the guidelines ??

Confused and struggling,

Sean

I tried many renditions of this photo and found that my efforts kept moving into colorizations and brush strokes - (photo-art?) when utilizing the liquify tool or other source material - also wasn't sure about rules of background replacement or substitution.

Great work by everyone so far!!

Hi all.. I am surprised reading about editing already entered pics. I never thought about it, and I do think it opens a can of worms. However, changes within a short time frame, like 24 hours would be okay, since uploads don't always look like they should.
Also as to the question on what is restoration and what is Photo Art, I would have to say the resulting image for me is the deciding factor. A good photographic result means restoration/retouching by whatever means, while a painted portrait outcome for me means photo art.
I'm going to upload mine now and follow the sage advice of not looking at it again!
Good luck to all - Margaret M

I want to thank Doug and T Paul for starting these contests.

People have brought up good points concerning early submissions, editing entries, etc. But, since the contests are new, I think it might be better to wait a while before changing anything.

I'm just happy that I don't have to write a detailed description :)

Lorraine

Just a thought.

As this is a competition whose intention is also to promote exchange of ideas and technique, perhaps it could be a condition that the winner of the competition gives a breakdown of what they did to create their image.

I appreciate that an exact breakdown is not always possible as many members (myself included) adjust things on the fly and can't always remember every single adjustment they may of made.

the 'Breakdown' could be a rule of the Contest... :idea: [for some reason I want to know how the winner Retouched the pic...]

Well, let people re-edit if they want, if you have a problem with it don't vote for them.
The only thing that bugs me is the 100k limit, it really can degrade the quality of the finished item. Please make it at least 200k next time.

I just uploaded my entry and am fairly happy with it. Yes it looks a bit different than on my machine but that was expected and I may or may not tweak it.

My point being I do not think there needs to be any rules forbidding an entry from being edited at any time before voting begins. The idea of this forum is to share and learn and have fun. If someone can learn something from my work or If I can learn something from your work (after all, that's what we are here for)...then it's all good!!!


As for the photo vs. photoart question: If it looks like a photo...then it must be.

Hi Folks!

I entered my photo in the contest and I don't think I did it correctly. As gorgeous as it was when I finished it in Photoshop, it looks a little "washed out" when I uploaded for the contest. This is what I did. I saved it for the web, then sized it to 800x600 and played with the quality so it was just below the 100kb size allowed.

Can I delete this photo and enter it again? I don't want to change anything I did, I just want to see if someone can give me some suggestions as to how I can keep the same crisp rich colors and smoothness that I have in Photoshop.

Everyone is doing a great job so far, good luck!!

Thanks

Hi Ms Bay, its quite easy to replace a photo. Just go back to your post and click on the edit button. This will bring up the edit page, scan down to manage attachments and click on it. Click on remove picture to remove your existing image, then browse and enter your new picture as usual, now click to confirm changes aand you're done.

As for trying a different resizing. I've found if you save for web, it changes your colour space to sRGB, if you were working in AdobeRGB or some other space, there will be a colour shift on resizing. I usually just resize my image, then save as jpeg, adjusting compression slider to get below 100K, I don't use the Save for Web function to do this, just the normal save as.

However, I believe RetouchPRO works on sRGB anyway, so there is some colour shift when you post. So the answer is work in sRGB, then there will be no colour shift on posting. I don't, but I don't expect it to post exactly as I see it on screen either.

Thanks Gary, I'll try it.

I see photo art as changing a photo into art…such as a painting, sketch, oil, watercolor, graphic and so on. Basically changing the image so that it no longer looks like a photo.

As for retouching, it could be as basic from removing scratches and dust to removing/adding people and body parts. Common retouching techniques include color correction, cropping/rotating an image, brightening and enhancing eyes, whitening teeth, removing glare, removing fly away hair and maybe even reshaping a nose or mouth or more. On the arty side of retouching you can still add arty effects such as a vignette, tint the image, change to B&W or sepia, add sparkles and so on and still be considered retouching because all those things can be done by a photographer with filters, dark room techniques and so on.

Hi Folks!

I entered my photo in the contest and I don't think I did it correctly. As gorgeous as it was when I finished it in Photoshop, it looks a little "washed out" when I uploaded for the contest. This is what I did. I saved it for the web, then sized it to 800x600 and played with the quality so it was just below the 100kb size allowed.

I don’t know if it will make a difference or not, but when I am working on an image for the web I set my color settings to a web profile for better color management.

Edit>Color Settings
I change my setting to Web Graphic Defaults. This changes your working space to sRGB

Then I open my file to start working on it.

When I am done, I do use the Save for Web option.

Thanks T,

That helps me understand the divide a little better.

Sean

:confused: Guidelines for judging
I'm downloading the entries as they come, bacause I think there will be more entries in this months contest than the last. I'll check for the edited entries at some point.
The variations in the entries are hard to ignore. How do we judge this months contest? I'm not a professional photographer, so I don't really know what to look for in a photo, a retouched photo at that.
I know, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", I just want to consider a professional's point of view.
...soleah

Hi!

If you want some guidelines that you can use to judge the entries on, just look in the March contest discussions under Ro's suggestion. I'm going to use those and a few more like creativity and originality. Not that the last two would mean that's who would win, because you don't know how high up the totem pole the other catagories are leading.

Isn't this a great contest? I just love looking at everyone's variations on the entries. And I must admit, guilty as charged. I changed my entry several times already, but not what I had done to my entry. I just couldn't get it to upload and look like it did in Photoshop. I got some good suggestions on how to do it from Gary and T Paul. T I'll use yours next entry. I hope Ro's suggestions help you out soleah!

I found that I had trouble with the 100K limit as well. I opened my jpg in ImageReady, made necessary adjustments and it came out fine at the smaller size. might be worth a try for some of ones posted so far.

Thank you Ms Bay.

...:tired: I knew byRo's suggestions. But I thought, it only applies to colorization. After reading it again, well...

Judging will come down to your own opinion--what do you think of the photo and how it met the contest challenge:

Your challenge was to transform the wedding photo (portrait.tif) into a polished wedding portrait. You were also suppose to add a smile to the bride and remove the groom’s five o’clock shadow. Then it was up to you to decide what else needed to be done in order to create a wedding portrait that the bride and groom would be proud to hang on their wall. The finally note was that the photo must remain as a photo.

A few things I would look for:

Composition: Does the photo emphasize the bride and groom. Are the horizontals horizontal and the verticals vertical? Has it been over/under cropped?

Retouching: Noise removal, object removal (things that are distracting), color correction (is there a color cast), tidying up (gaps, clothes wrinkles, yellow teeth, dull eyes, crooked ties, hot spots and so on)

Manipulation: Does the added smile look natural? How does the groom’s face look? Do any new elements looks unnatural/out of place?

Final Appearance: Would you be happy of the work if you were the bride or groom?

Just one point. I posted my retouch and noted that its appearance was different from what I saw when I used the save for web command in photoshop. So I edited it and increased the contrast. I guess the point is that the poster should be able to edit his or her photos within a short time period of posting it.

Does my retouch look washed out and yellow to anyone? I'm wondering if it too is the cause of "save for web"

Please let me know,

S.

I think it loos great! Of course, I'm on my computer at work so not sure how it is on my monitor at home (much better CRT).

Looks really good, no pixellation or posterisation, how did you save it to get such a good posting.

I'm not really sure. I was working with sRGB color settings in Photoshop and I actually worked "at size" 600x800 @ 200 dpi. I then used the "save for web" command, set for .jpg and played with the quality slider until it was just under 100 kbs.

I'm running on a Mac here at the office and all my web preview windows make things look yellow and washed out. I'm glad you guys cannot see it in the way I am.

Thanks for the feedback.

Guess next time we have a contest with a large file I'll try resizing before I do any work on it.

Photoshop. Love your entry.

Some thought on saving images for the web:

Photography: Preparing photos for the Internet (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=96)

Saving images for the web (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/webphotos.html)

Saving Photos for Web (http://www.caleida.com/community/photoshop/609.html)

Processing Digital Images for Web Presentation (http://www.naturescapes.net/042005/gd0405.htm)

All very interesting, but none explain why a 800x600 pix image, compressed to 100K, which views satisfactorily on my screen, without pixellation or posterisation, does not do so when uploaded and displayed at RetouchPRO.

There's no processing of any sort done to attached images here. The file displayed is (quite literally) the exact file uploaded. Try viewing your local file in a web browser instead of in Photoshop. If it looks different, then there's something set incorrectly in the Photoshop color management (might be worth another thread). If it looks the same in your web browser and Photoshop but different when uploaded here, call an exorcist :devil:

My most abject and sincere apologies Doug, just looked at it in Widows Picture and Fax viewer, and it looks as posted, will have to check settings in Photoshop, either that or check it when it's dark and I don't have light on my screen.

Thanks for your forbearance.

Now that's what I'm talking about! Grafx, your posting is so pretty and clear. That is what I was trying to do. I went back and changed my settings to sRGB and overly contrasted the picture. The color came out better, but the colors are still not as sharp and clear as it is in Photoshop. I guess you have to change that setting when you're doing it from scratch. But since the color is better, I think I had better leave well enough alone.

I haven't really taken the opportunity up to now to thank Doug (and moderators) for the wonderful resource of this site. The more I read the more I love it.

This contest was wonderful fun. I haven't done anything that involved retouching like this before, but it reminded me of how much I enjoyed creating collaged greeting cards as a teenager, with all the cutting, pasting and resizing. Guess my interests haven't really changed so much! :classic:

I just read the discussion about editing a picture after you've post it. I just want to give my opinion about it.

I edited my post several times. I see this contest as a way for me to learn how to use photoshop and everytime when I learn something new I try it out on the picture for the contest and then resubmit it if it looks better.

It wouldn't be a real problem to wait untill the last few days before the deadline and then submit it but I am the kind of person that forgets to submit it if I wait :grin:

and if you think someone copied an idea from someone else you just dont rank him as high.

regards

As I was reading the comments on this thread I hought " this is a site for learning and sharing of ideas and techniques", how ever this is a contest and as such I think once a pic is submitted it sould stand on its own merrits. but after the voting is done i think the thread should be reopened for the first five place winners to post the steps they used to ascheive their results

Can someone explain the rationale behind the 600x800 pix requirement? Some of these pics (especially the conservative crops with smaller faces) really suffer from lost facial details. If the pic size is kept below the 100k limit what's the harm in allowing pixel dimensions that prevent fuzzy faces?

800px guarantees everyone can view it at 100%, so no compression or zooming artifacts are introduced. It also allows everyone's entry to be judged at the same resolution, and was determined a long time ago to be about the top end of what can be handled by a 100k filesize.

You can feel free to link to a higher-rez version, for discussion or to simply show your work at its best, but the 800px images are the ones used for voting.

I've noticed that a lot of entries have not been named after their owners. This may cause some difficulty when it comes time to vote.

4. When you submit your entry put your username in the filename (ie: tpaul.jpg). This is so users can save the images to a local directory and remember who did what.

I don't know if I'm telling something that's very basic, but it may help somebody. On my computer, when you click on the thumbnail and open the picture, you can mouse over the picture itself and a button appears in the bottom right hand corner and if you click it, it will expand the picture up to the size it is suppose to be. Sorry, if everybody already knows this.

I guess the rule of thumb when posting for a contest like this is "don't sacrifice quality for size". I'm experimenting with my own image, there is a noticeable difference already between 70% and 80% quality when saving in jpeg. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than 75%.

Is it possible to get runners up listed as well as 1st place? With so many entries, and everyone nominating top 5, it would be good to give some of the other entries a bit of a pat on the back, even though they don't get the prize.

I know it's probably a lot of extra work in vote counting, but could we list the overall top 5 results? It may help by giving some of the newer/less experienced retouchers some recognition and encouragement.

Another thing - I noticed that someone had posted all the images on one site to help with voting last time. Any chance of doing that again? Seems much easier to compare that way. (Happy to help if it's required) :ditsy:

Is it possible to get runners up listed as well as 1st place? With so many entries, and everyone nominating top 5, it would be good to give some of the other entries a bit of a pat on the back, even though they don't get the prize.
I added the top five to the March contest results and I will post the top five for April as well.

Another thing - I noticed that someone had posted all the images on one site to help with voting last time. Any chance of doing that again? Seems much easier to compare that way. (Happy to help if it's required) :ditsy:
If someone is willing to do this, I will add the link to the voting thread. Just remember to wait until the end of the contest submission period and check for edited images to ensure you are posting the most current image. Send me a PM if you want to do this.

The deadline for this contest is fast approaching!!! Don't forget to submit your entry before the deadline.

Deadline for entries is 5pm EST 23 April 2005

Oh, no. It might take more than 2 days for me to read this 'discussion thread' :dead:
By the way, I've made four versions from that wedding portrait. The stained glasses and flower vases were sort of obstacles in my workflow, but I see some very impressive works of other people.
They didn't changed perspectives but the stained glasses and flower vases seem not to be obstacles anymore. :cat:

p.s. I spotted some horizontal stripe in "portrait.tiff" It doen't look like sort of stain. Is the stripe look things from film scanning? Just from curiousity. :tongue:

With all the huh-bub about changing an entry image, I figured I would explain my change. I'm not one to rehash much of anything.... I had to reload my image because (for some unknown and exhaustively researched reason) my computer drops pixels and leaves streaks in images or only loads half the pixels in an image or whatever.... I've searched the web a hundred times (or more), and I can't find ANYONE who can tell me why this is happening. It happens w/ email attachments, ftp uploads, java uploads, http uploads, and any other imaginable type of upload.

I would certainly be appreciative if some of you computer/image gurus could help me figure this one out. I'm about ready to take my little computer out for some target practice....

Thanks in advance, and keep up the good work!

Mark

Think I need to make my point clear about the editing entries comment I made. This wasn't meant to cause a problem or fuss, it was something I assumed was against the rules. When I read the rules it stated "7. Only one entry per person." , and I assumed that meant you couldn't change your entry. It has been said that you can change an enrty if you wish, so that cleared the matter up. Now the rules regarding editing have been cleared up, I have no problem with it.
I wasn't comfortable with changing my own entry, as I would like people to judge my first entry as a customer would if shown the picture. That is a personal test on myself, and not something I would expect others to follow :happy: .

I wasn't fussing about the comment, Chris... I was just clarifying why I changed mine, since I forgot to note it in the "Reason for Edit" box... NP's here, dude!

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

Deleted and leaving this forum due to the actions of member rondon (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/member.php?userid=366)

hi,

i found this site on monday. i registered on tuesday and didnt look at the contest topic until today. thus, i wasnt in time to enter the actual contest. nonetheless, i decided to do a version up myself and am posting it here. i just liked the photo and the challenge :)

the rules said to give her a smile and remove his 5 o'clock shadow. i notice a lot of folks cut and pasted in from the source files. i didnt. i used the warp tool and simply turned the edges of her mouth up a bit to give her a closed-mouth smile. and as for his shadow, it appeared to me he has a moustache, so i left that intact, since that wouldnt really be part of a 5 o'clock shadow.

at any rate, i was curious for any comments anyone might make on my version.

K.

Kraellin, I find your version of the wedding photo very nice. Only one thing, by turning up her mouth, you made her chin look long. Moving her smile down just a tad would have made her face look more balanced to me. Just my opinion, but overall a nice portrait.

One other thing, if someone could answer it for me. Why didn't most of you fix his tie. From my wedding and some others that I have attended, his shirt should have a closed collar. The shirts made with the open collar don't have the long "lapel" collar with it. They are either one or the other. Am I out of date with wedding fashion?

Kraellin, I find your version of the wedding photo very nice. Only one thing, by turning up her mouth, you made her chin look long. Moving her smile down just a tad would have made her face look more balanced to me. Just my opinion, but overall a nice portrait.

One other thing, if someone could answer it for me. Why didn't most of you fix his tie. From my wedding and some others that I have attended, his shirt should have a closed collar. The shirts made with the open collar don't have the long "lapel" collar with it. They are either one or the other. Am I out of date with wedding fashion?
I agree about the tie Ms Bay see my comments on the voting forum

I DID fix the tie, lapel. First thing. Didn't help.
kiska

Hi Kreallin,
Nice work. I think the close-mouthed smile in the original is as far as it can go. You can't turn it up any further.

I find these contest now comical. Is so amazing how so many people see so many different things in so many different ways. Everyones screens show different colors at different sizes and so forth. So the whole contest ends up being a crap shoot. I am a graphic designer working on a mac and I have spent hundreds of dollars on calibration hardware and software for my monitors. Mine are setup to Heildelberg digital presses. So I know when I design something it will print at the exact color on my screen. But the average windows user has never even changed their factory settings and their screens are way to saturated in the red channel. Especially LCD and laptops screens, Hince the reason why people say mine looks to red. But it is probably the reason why I think Jamies is to flat for my taste because I have my red balanced low. I design by the numbers skin should be not the look of it, if you learn the number ratios you will always be right no matter whos monitor sees it. For my 2 cents I think the bride and groom should vote on this so we can see an opinion of someone who lives with these faces day in and day out. They would recognize who has the more natural look. I also think we need to have EXACT voting guidlines for the next contest. Looks like T-Paul tried to give them to us but not to many people listended. Well that was my 2 cents... Good job everyone on your entries, see ya next contest!

Everyone's screens show different colors at different sizes and so forth. So the whole contest ends up being a crap shoot. I am a graphic designer working on a mac and I have spent hundreds of dollars on calibration hardware and software for my monitors. Mine are setup to Heildelberg digital presses. So I know when I design something it will print at the exact color on my screen. But the average windows user has never even changed their factory settings and their screens are way to saturated in the red channel. Especially LCD and laptops screens, Hince the reason why people say mine looks to red. But it is probably the reason why I think Jamies is to flat for my taste because I have my red balanced low. I design by the numbers skin should be not the look of it, if you learn the number ratios you will always be right no matter whos monitor sees it. I appreciate what you're saying rhd, and I am certainly even more guilty than many of having no dealings with proper colour calibration (working here on my little 12" laptop screen). I'm sure my colour balance is nothing like yours. :tongue: Though based on the testing I have done not too bad I think...

But having said that, these things are still a matter of taste as well. I can see that your skin colours are more realistic (based on my totally uncalibrated screen!), however I think that sometimes colours in photos - even skin colour - can look more pleasing to the eye cooled down a notch or two. It's all related to mood, as well as personal preference. Photographic images aren't science no matter how much we may want them to be. They are an art. Maybe if we were restoring an image of a Rembrandt where faithful colour reproduction is crucial; but this is a mood peice - just as the couple don't want to remember themselves with dark circles under their eyes, they may also be happy to remove a little of the redness from their nose :classic:

This isn't a professional competion, so I don't think we can have professional standards for rules etc. (Apart from anything else it would wipe 70% of us out I think!) I agree though that the more everyone can work off the same basic concepts, colour settings, understanding of the rules etc the calmer the whole process will be :-) However given that there is a big range of skill, experience etc here I think it has to be accepted that this is the standard that will be judged and be judging. I thought it was fun, and a good exercise. And I learned a bit too (Always watch out for those crooked windows *lol*) A few votes is nice too - but just a cherry on top :grin:

It's a shame there seem to be a lot of people not voting though! (Unless they are all going to put their entries in as a last minute dash)

I agreed with righthanddesign about that the bride and groom would recognize better than any of the participants which image has the more natural look, etc, and therefore, would like to hang on their wall. With Caitlin, I’m also surprise about the few of the people who are voting considering the high number of participants, but perhaps they are waiting until the last minute.

ms bay,

thank you :)

i took your comment about her chin to heart and took another look at it. i had noticed this also when doing the retouch. so, i went back and looked at this again and even went as far as overlaying the original selection over the retouched one. it's the same size, so i didnt alter the chin at all. i only turned the corners of her mouth up a bit. still, the apparency is that it might be larger. and i tend to believe that apparencies are often more important than realities :) also, she just plain has a fairly large chin; not quite a jay leno chin, but it's prominent to begin with.

also, maybe i'm missing something here, but what's wrong with the tie? his collar looks closed to me, or is this an angle thing, perspective?

i'll also make a comment about folks posting one entry and then pulling it and placing another. i liken this to showing a client a given piece of work and they're not quite happy with it as is. so, you re-work it a bit and show it to them again until you get it how they want it. so, i dont see much wrong with this. the work has a deadline. the client must have it by a certain time and it's the same with the contest. as long as the work is DONE by x time, then ok, it doesnt matter how many revisions it took.

as for the monitor calibration, i've a question here. i know monitors can be 'off' by a fair amount, as i've changed monitors on a system before and can get quite a different view of things at times. but, wouldnt you be alerted to this if your prints come out quite a bit differently from the look on your monitor, either in luminosity or color? also, someone posted a link to a web site for calibrating your monitor, but wasnt that only for luminosity/gamma? does anyone know of a site where you could calibrate for color/hue? and righthanddesign, what calibration software do you use?

also, i've done up another version of the wedding photo, this time with a fuller smile.

K.

I got a lot out of this contest, particularly the voting portion (what the heck is wrong with my pic? ...then, there must be something wrong with my pic...and finally, how did I not see that?!). Competition can be invaluable as far as forcing you to re-evaluate what you thought was O.K. It still amazes me how staring at a pic for hours can result in my not really seeing it - maybe it's image dyslexia? Anyway I went back to the drawing board (again) to (hopefully) fix some of my 'over-sights' and to address the nagging problem of subtly integrating that stained glass window.

lol doug,

yeah, that was subtle :)

K.

Spending all the money in the world on calibration software and doing all the work by the numbers is not going to change people's tastes regardless of what a person does for a living. If I tell a client they are wrong because I use a highly calibrated moinitor on a Mac and I am a professional, I will have one less customer.

I also think that if one is going to dish out criticism about anothers work, one should be willing to accept the same without lashing out and blaming others equipment (it is what it is). RHD's reaction is exactly why I only placed my votes and did not elaborate as to why or how I came to my conclusion.

If we were to place more strigent standards on (entering) or voting we would have fewer members participating.

Last of all I invite the Bride and Groom to come place their vote.....just as soon as they place their entry.

AP

Ha ha - Doug. Must be a marriage made in heaven.

Yikes! There seems to be some hard feelings brewing. Well, I will enter my two cents. I have really enjoyed the contests and I always learn something by doing them. I work on a Mac and a PC and have a little (not much) knowledge on the calibration issues and how they effect how an image is seen. It seems to me that since so many people are participating in the contest with so many different calibrations, that there will always be a slight problem with how the image is finally seen. Maybe in future contests a monitor color profile can be suggested so that the entries might be viewed better.

I think that this is a great learning site, and I really enjoy the challenges that we have a chance to work on and also get feedback from. I am an artist and use the computer for most of my designs on canvas. I have really learned more about Photoshop by taking on the challenges that this site provides, and by reading how other people approach photo restoration.

I think having a contest offers us an opportunity to put our skills to the test and see how we do with a challenge on a more competitive level. I feel that a contest is a competition and that we enter knowing that we may or may not win or place. I think that once we enter we should have limited revisions (it is a contest) and then let the cards fall where they will. The judging guidelines were clear and made the choices a little easier, but personal taste also is part of the final decision that we each make.

I like the idea of the bride and groom voting; after all they are the ones that would hang the photo on their wall. Maybe in a future contests we could have a guest judge that is a professional? It would be interesting to hear yeas and nays from a pro.

I hope that we will have more contests and continue to put what we have learned to the challenge.

Doug, your revision would have had my vote!

Cathy

[QUOTE=Kraellin]
...also, maybe i'm missing something here, but what's wrong with the tie? his collar looks closed to me, or is this an angle thing, perspective?...QUOTE]

Kraellin
His tie isn't tight...doesn't look neat and tidy. Shot on left is our groom...shot on the right how it should look in my opinion for a photograph.

Doug
You didn't include a smile...I didn't want your entry 2 to be disqualified so I added one for you :grin: ...I know one shouldn't manipulate another's image without permission but the deadline is here...

Basically, people don't want to be criticize. But some are ok with it after the initial reaction.

I'd rather reserve my comments/critique until asked, because I'm not sure everybody here welcomes it. I don't want to sound too nice but what's the point if one is not receptive of it.

Righthanddesign,
If I'm not mistaken you've got the most votes. Congratulations!
If people voted for your entry, that means you must have done something right, despite the comments. Take heart.

Doug
Love your entry. :bigthmb: Why didn't I think of that?

ogee,

ok, i see what you're saying now.

i think part of that might be a perspective thing, though. in the original, you're looking almost straight down the vertical of that collar, but yes, yours is tighter.

K.

His tie isn't tight...doesn't look neat and tidy. Shot on left is our groom...shot on the right how it should look in my opinion for a photograph.Hmm.... See I don't know that I agree on this one. Here I think taste comes in. I personally think it looks ok as it is, and if I was to do this modification at the very least I would ask the client if they wanted me too. It might be part of the grooms' personality never to tightened his collar, and this could look out of character!

Doug - you're a genius! (That arm around the waist is a bit creepy though! *lol* Jesus with Ronald McDonald hands....)

ogee, much happier (and just a little bit more disturbing).

Try flipping the brides smile horizontally and then take out a bit of the yellow. After flipping it, push the dark corners on the left side inward just a little bit.
Dont forget to add subtle shadows in between the chin and lower lip to emphasize the ridges as she is now smiling diffrently. It would be better if you keep her laugh lines. Study how she smiled in the other source image.
I think it would also be better if you leave just a little bit of the shadows/highlights on her face to make it more natural.
Sorry, I couldn't show an image of what I'm saying because I'm a slow retoucher. It could take a while.

Kraellin, there you go! If you overlayed it on the original, then that's it. I guess her chin is a little long. But I do like your second rendention better. As everyone is finding out, and mostly not from a professional point of view, it's all in the eye of the beholder. You did a good job!

ogee, much happier (and just a little bit more disturbing).
Disturbing is a good word...and I think we will not go any further down that road...

I have learnt awful lot just by participating and follow the thread. Thanks everyone.
Thomas Foo
Hey Doug, your re-work would have won hands down :)

Well a big congratulations to everyone in the competition (All participants - not just top 5!). Though it does make me feel like some kind of 'Everyman' as I voted for all the winners! (Well, the 4 I could!) I think I should take up betting on the horses or something.... :tongue:

It was a fascinating process, and great to see the variety of interpretation. It really brought home (particularly that last 'groom' vote) how much these things really are in the eye of the beholder.

Attached is a newly 'straightened' rendition of my entry - I got the hint on that one very early on! *lol* Though no-one mentioned it in voting, a friend did point out my groom seemed to have a rather liberal application of eyeliner and I sheepishly had to admit that I agreed - but it's not something I've taken the time to fix. :tongue:

Photoshop. I really appreciate the encouragement and votes - very flattered to be amongst such talent!

Congratulations RHD! And thank you all at RetouchPRO for having these contests. I really enjoy these little incentives to try. Congrats to all!

Dawn

Congratulations to the winner, RightHandDesign, the top five and to all the participants. Thanks to the participants who vote for my entry and for your comments. Thank you TPaul for letting us know the groom opinion.

soleah,

thanks for the tips. i took a look at your work on this pic (hoping it would be terrible so i could dismiss your comments ;) ), and found it VERY professional looking! so, i guess i have to take your comments to heart :) on a straight retouch i do pretty good, but when it comes to a chop (altering an image with another image's parts) i always tend to lose a bit. yours is quite good! there was one thing i was a bit concerned with in the chop process; the mouth from the other image isnt quite skewed the same and i was able to correct for that a bit, but i also noticed that the vertical alignment forced the chopped smile to be moved over a bit. i tried to correct for this with a few things, like horizontal skew and rotate of the selection and it almost worked. i also noticed that in your image her teeth seem to be not quite vertically aligned with the rest of her face. her two front teeth seem a bit to the left to me. i'm not trying to be critical of your work here; it's more of a question. how would you line up the chopped piece to the face, vertically, and still get the whole thing looking right?

as for the smile lines, i didnt use the smile from the larger smile pic, i used the other one where the smile lines werent so pronounced. i did try to shadow some in, but i guess i didnt get enough. like i say, chops are something i still need a lot of work with.

so, thank you :) i copied your image over to my drive to study it a bit. it really is quite good!

ms bay,

thank you :) i'm learning ;) and i couldnt agree more about 'eye of the beholder'.

K.

soleah,
there was one thing i was a bit concerned with in the chop process; the mouth from the other image isnt quite skewed the same and i was able to correct for that a bit, but i also noticed that the vertical alignment forced the chopped smile to be moved over a bit. i tried to correct for this with a few things, like horizontal skew and rotate of the selection and it almost worked. i also noticed that in your image her teeth seem to be not quite vertically aligned with the rest of her face. her two front teeth seem a bit to the left to me. i'm not trying to be critical of your work here; it's more of a question. how would you line up the chopped piece to the face, vertically, and still get the whole thing looking right?
K.

Thanks, Kraellin. My work still needs work. I'm not a professional "anything" to give you advise. But sometimes, you miss out on things for staring at it too long. For instance, the one that you noticed on mine.

As for your concern on vertical alignment, have you tried the liquify tool?

Much better!

there was one thing i was a bit concerned with in the chop process; the mouth from the other image isnt quite skewed the same and i was able to correct for that a bit, but i also noticed that the vertical alignment forced the chopped smile to be moved over a bit. i tried to correct for this with a few things, like horizontal skew and rotate of the selection and it almost worked. Well, we were asked to give some feedback on what we did on our entries, so maybe now's a good time to give mine!

I have never done this kind of thing before, but as I said in another thread, even back as a child I loved to cut up images and text from books, photocopy in various sizes, and 'photoshop' with uhu-glue and paper :-), so maybe I have a bit of a natural affinity for it!

Just to describe what I did in a rudimentary sense:-

THE LIPS: I cut from the 'party' picture of our bride. Pasted to a new layer, and it looked wrong straight away. After resizing to fit her face, I flipped it horizontally - better (The bride has her face at a different angle in the other pic so this matched the view better). I thought it looked a bit too 'wide' for the situation so I also resized it to be narrower, while maintaining the height. To make it blend I fiddled with colour balance and brightness, then used the eraser to gently erase (with a soft edge) around the mouth. Some tweaking was still needed of the shape which I did with transform skew.

THE EYES: Same process, also 'widened' the eyes a little. To make sure I placed them accurately (did this with mouth as well) I moved the opacity of the layer from 0% to 100% until I was happy they were aligned and matching in size.

THE FACE: I did some other minor work on the faces - primarily removing the dark shadows under the couples eyes with clone and heal. I also wasn't happy the chin on the bride matched her new smile, and took some chin, and laugh line from one of the other images (don't remember which!) and merged it in with the eraser. Slight gausian blur masking key features on brides skin, to create a smoother appearance.

THE STUBBLE: Used a combination of techniques - Blur, clone stamp, and finally a light paintbrush with a sampled pink from elsewhere on his face.

OTHER: Fixed her discoloured left shoulder, and his hand. Took a fold out of her bodice. Gausian blur of the b/g - removed shadows and some of the marble patterning from the floor. Neat Image to remove noise overall.

Nb. Not in that particular order though!

Hey everyone thanks for voting for mine. This was very exciting I have never won anything like this before.

I also want to apologize to the people who read my comments and were offended. I am just very used to people critiquing my work honestly. I have been through art school and there they always say 5 things that are bad about it before they ever say anything good. That way it teaches you to seperate yourself from your work and not take it so personal. As far as monitor calibration I was just stating why people see things differently. I am not bragging about how much I have spent on calibration I am just stating for me and my line of work I have to have mine calibrated to a printing press.
I just thought it was so funny how some people voted for some people and not others then the very next person put someone as #1 and the other person didnt even include them in their votes. It just seemed like a crap shoot. I just thought you would see consistant voting across the board...guess not.

Well again thanks everyone... see ya next contest

I just thought you would see consistant voting across the board...guess not.


I also react the same way sometimes but I have to remind myself that people's taste vary. That's the reason why we're tallying votes. Majority wins. Congratulations, again!

Thanks for the tip about the eyebrows. Never thought about that one.

Hi all, I was one of the unruly contestants that didn't vote, so should I beg for forgiveness now or is it too much to ask for mercy. I know no excuse is good but I got a little busy with work and a few side projects and then my windows pc would freeze up whenever I'd right click or drag an object to another folder, so it's not really my fault, it's mr. gates fault I tells ya. After a system restore though that problem was fixed. Also the lousy calendar I received for Christmas had April with 31 days, d'oh (what??? it could happen). Now had I voted my top 5 were 1)1stlite, 2)jaime, 3)grafx, 4)TPaul and 5)righthanddesign. Congrats to RHD for winning and also congrats to the groom for his excellent taste ;-). Just my luck the only vote I get doesn't even count, aw shucks.

I just thought you would see consistant voting across the board...guess not.

I am a bit surprised also. Some of the things I saw in many of the entries other people missed completely or didn't view them as important. I didn't put your entry in my top five, even though your skin tones and smile were excellent- maybe the best, because I notice that when you manipulated the bride you removed the veil on her left side by the groom and also removed some of it on the right side above her shoulder...to me it looked as if her veil was flying out of one side of her head. Once I noticed this I couldn't get the genie back in the bottle.
Congratulations though righthanddesign...as someone who is merely trying to learn how to do this for my own enjoyment I admire your ability and knowledge.

Good job ogee I completely forgot to uncover that part of her veile by the groom. I had it under a layer mask and just missed it. You stare at these things so long you start to go crazy. You are so right once you see it you can't miss it. See just like I said everyone sees different things. i will be more careful next time. ;-)

Congratulations, Wooden Bender!

I like your entry, too. I just wish it's colored. But that's me.

I wonder though, if the bride agrees with the groom. ;)

Hi Wooden Bender,

Thanks for your vote which I appreciate.

Good job ogee I completely forgot to uncover that part of her veile by the groom. I had it under a layer mask and just missed it. You stare at these things so long you start to go crazy. You are so right once you see it you can't miss it. See just like I said everyone sees different things. i will be more careful next time. ;-)

That is why I like the idea of restricting judging to entrants...because we have done the work we know where the bodies are buried... :dizzy:

Congratulations, righthanddesign!!!!

Also, congratulations to the four runners up and everyone who entered the contest.

Lorraine

Hey everyone thanks for voting for mine. This was very exciting I have never won anything like this before.

I also want to apologize to the people who read my comments and were offended. I am just very used to people critiquing my work honestly. I have been through art school and there they always say 5 things that are bad about it before they ever say anything good. That way it teaches you to seperate yourself from your work and not take it so personal. As far as monitor calibration I was just stating why people see things differently. I am not bragging about how much I have spent on calibration I am just stating for me and my line of work I have to have mine calibrated to a printing press.
I just thought it was so funny how some people voted for some people and not others then the very next person put someone as #1 and the other person didnt even include them in their votes. It just seemed like a crap shoot. I just thought you would see consistant voting across the board...guess not.

Well again thanks everyone... see ya next contest

I'm fully agree with you. ^^~
By the way...though the April Contest was over, it has encouraged people to enhance their work to show us a better result. I enjoyed it.

Congratulation righthanddesign!

Thanks Tpaul for letting us know the brides vote. I was only wondering about her thoughts on this so I was surprised. I also thank her for taking the time.

I am just getting around to saying congratulations to righthanddesign, and all of the people who placed. Congrats soleah for the bride's vote. Great job everyone.

Cathy