Highly esteemed fellow Photoshop-ers !

Now, I've been around this place for some time now but yet haven't made any "fuzz" about it, so I guess it's time to do so. And, typicly, when I do I'm in bad need of all or any pointers to this hair problem of mine.

What I'm up to is making a 3D render for a perfume ad - alas, fictive and intended for my upcoming promo portfolio, but anyways...
What I've done so far is setting up the model in 3DS Max, lighted it whith 2 Area Lights and rendered it out as a Tiff with acompanying Alpha Channel.

Everything comes out just dandy - except for the rim of the hair cap.
Yes, I say hair cap since it is a modelled cap on top of the head with a transmapped texture ( a black-and-white bitmap driving the transparency channel to decide what parts are transparent and what parts are not - very much like an alpha ).

The problem can be seen in the attached image.
It doesn't realy look the way you would expect an all-back hairstyle to look, does it ..?
Partly the problem is the very dark areas "under" the hair ( kind of ) and partly it's the "flat" apperance of the "chunks" ( since it's basically a polygon model ).
What i do want is to make the hair look like hair.

Now, I've done every manipulation I could think of in Max to make it come out better - trust me - but this represents the best result of all the umpty-thirteen renders I've done ...

So - I "resorted" to getting it fixed up in Photoshop 7.1, right ?
Wrong !!
Well, not wrong per se, but I haven't come up with anything that actually does the very trick ... yet ....

What I've tried so far is every layer blending mode in the dropdown - including "blend if's", cloning, healing, patching, copy/paste bits and paint, paint in, draw new strands, use eraser with various brushes and opacities and dynamics and soforth, etc.. etc.. etc ....

I've even tried Flora's method to adress the very image with an enhanced and firm tone of voice, but it's definitly got this hearing problem ...

As I see it from where I stand now, I've got but a few options left to try.
One of them is to re-model the hair in Max until I get it to my liking. A tedious, time consuming and probably uncalled for task..
Another is to completely re-draw new hair in Photoshop (can be done very sucessfully in Photoshop) which will take me anything from 10 hours to eternity.
So before I end up a babbling idiot locked away at some asylum, I thought I'd seek council here with you good people.
I'm sure there is some (somewhat) simple solution I just haven't seen yet.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Flora came up with one of those Ta-da solutions that makes me whack my head repetedly in the monitor .. :nod:

Now, if anyone would like a slightly larger ( 1500x1440 and 375k ) image to have a go at, you can get it at:
GraceLarge.jpg (http://www.jiger.org/GraceLarge.jpg)

Should anyone want to tinker with the original Tiff you can send me a mail at:
Webmaster@jiger.org
But mind you - it's a 4000 x 3000 at a staggering 6.4 mb even in LZW compression .. !!

Oh - btw - if anyone knows of any good method to paint skintones that preserves the underlying texture I'd be very happy to learn.
The "preserve texture" option in Brush settings doesn't quite seem to do it and I would very much like to keep the skin pore texture in certain parts of the model.

Thank you very much for your attention and sorry for a bit lenghty post.

-- Jiger --

Hi Jiger !

I didn't know about Flora's sound advice of addressing the image in a stern voice, would love to try that !

I have just dwld your jpg and intend to see what happens with the good'ol rubber stamp tool --unless you have already tried it and discarded as unsuitable-- :aghast: and see what I can come up with.

Hope to have some results in a little while. I love these kind of challenges !

Regards - Martha :wavey:

Hello Martha !

>
>I didn't know about Flora's sound advice of addressing the image in a stern voice, would love to try that !
>
Well, I don't think she ment that as an advice, really ... (and she is a bit reluctant to admit she does this, so don't tell anyone I told you, right ?).
In any ways, I can assure you it doesn't work.

>
>...what happens with the good'ol rubber stamp tool --unless you have already tried it and discarded as unsuitable--
>
As said, I've tried "everything" but for that does not discard anything or any idea. Could be that I've overseen something in the process of trial and - mostly - error.

The very problem is really not to get hair into the parts I want, but to make it look like the hair that's in the rendered image. To interact with the flow and texture of it without any noticable manipulations.
Well, you'll see what I mean as you go along with it.

Will be very excited to see what you come up with !

Thank you for your kind assistance, Martha ! :)

-- Jiger --

Jiger

Welcome to RP

I don’t understand rendering but I do see the problem.
Does the background have to be white as it would be easier if it were Darker?
Can you accept any blurring or do you want to keep it sharp?

Ken

Hi Jiger,
Ok about Flora, won't mention this to anyone (except of course two or three good friends :ditsy: )
I include here two results. In both cases I duplicated the background and worked mainly with the copy, the problem I found here is that when removing the yellow circles first had to fill in the spaces. Well in short I used the stamp tool and then had to resort to the smudge tool, with a special brush not a solid one. Then used the polygonal lasso to outline the part of the hair I wanted to keep (after smudging it looked like poor Grace had feathers instead of hair ;) ) Managed to give it a more rounded shape.

Kept the selection and used in the background image, used "liberally" the stamp tool to give it a more solid background to the parts I worked on and also cover the lighter parts left by the yellow circles.

Once finished with that, made a copy of the file and on Grace 2 set the blending of the top layer to "pin light" and on Grace 5 to "lighten" both 100 % opacity.

Hope it helps ? :)

Show us the final result you get for your presentation pls :nod:

good luck !

Regards - Martha :wavey:

>
>Welcome to RP
>
Thank you very much !
Actually, I've been around here lurking for some time, but not participated in anything - until now ...

>
>I don’t understand rendering but I do see the problem.
>
No need to understand, really.
Rendering is the 3D way of producing the final image(-s), but as you can see there's still a need for postwork.
That brings us to Photoshop (for instance) which we both/all/most have in common. Only difference is a 3D image doesn't have filmgrain - unless put there intentionally or in post

>
>Does the background have to be white as it would be easier if it were Darker?
>
Unfortunately, yes. It has to be white to fit the concept of the (fictional) ad. It is ment to be a 4-colour offset print.
Advantage with the Tiff is that there's an Alpha (mask) which makes it possible to separate the model from the background, and that leaves some more options for post editing.

>
>Can you accept any blurring or do you want to keep it sharp?
>
Again, unfortunately - no, I can't accept any blurring.
Blurring, or softening, have been a sideeffect from many of the methods I've tried and it's a dead giveaway there has been some "tampering" done to the image - emidiately spotted.
You see, the original image is 4000 x 3000 pixels in 300 dpi (print res) so attention to minute detail is imperative.

Currently I'm trying to find a way to make the dark (black) areas "under" the hair become invisible (as in transparent) in hopes to be able to fill in missing peaces by re-using parts from the image.

No luck this far, tho ...

Thank you very much for having a go at it, Cameraken !
I really appreciate it !

-- Jiger --

>
>the problem I found here is that when removing the yellow circles first
>
God Lord, Martha. Did you work on the thumbnail .. ?
There was a link i my post to a 1500 x 1440 you could have used - without the yellow markings.
My God - you must have spent a whole lot of work just cloning the yellow's out to begin with ...

Yes, I understand what you've been doing and it is a workable method. I've tried something similar myself, but it also takes out the darker shades of the hair at the top - and if possible I want to keep it to make the model "stand out" from the background.
Never the less I'm very greatful for your contribution to solving this problem.

>
>Show us the final result you get for your presentation pls
>
If I get this thing floating the way I intend I sure will.
Also, I'll provide a description of what I did ( if for nothing else, so someone can tell me there was a much easier way to do it ... ).
If you read my answer to Cameraken you'll know what I'm currently up to with trying.

Thank you very much for your contribution, Martha !! :bow:

-- Jiger -- :wavey:

:lmao: Didn't realize there was a larger image I could have worked with duhh!! :o: :ditsy:

What I am sorry about is that I could not give you an easier solution. Though I wonder what would happen if you use the PS "replace color" option ? But then, perhaps it is included in the trial and (mostly) error ones ? ;)

Good luck again Jiger !

Regards - Martha :wavey:

hmm, been a while since i worked with 3d models and alpha channels as applied to such. in my enclosed image, the blue is one of the problems and the green is the other problem. a simple clone could fix both...if i understand the problem correctly. if this image is taken from a 3d model, then i'd say the first problem, the blue, is a polygon issue. it's sitting up too high and isnt flat enough. the other is the green; it's an unnatural line lined with a black line. you've got a lot of these 'perfect' lines along the whole top of the hair line. they make nice arcs, but dont look right.

as for this part: Currently I'm trying to find a way to make the dark (black) areas "under" the hair become invisible (as in transparent) in hopes to be able to fill in missing peaces by re-using parts from the image. i believe what you want is a mask from luminosity, invert it so the dark areas are white mask areas. use the replacer tool to change the black to white or any other shade you want.

and for your other question in your first post about painting skin tones, see nancyj's response is this thread: http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11212

Craig

I thought it would be a simple defringing; take out the white matte and then the black in and around the hair.

But the white around the model is not white; it's antialiased white. Can you turn that feature off? There's also a black drop-shadow on the right. The black in the hair is nicely shaded; that's a problem when trying to delete it.

Ah well, in a few years we'll have the cpu power to model individual hairs. In the mean time, can you defringe the hair texture so those edge hairs are distinct before importing the "cap" of hair?

Pierre

Assuming the attached is what you are after then...

Try using the smudge tool at about size 3 and 80%. smudge in with the white and out with the hair. Do this on a new layer and then sharpen as necessary.

Christine

I suggest visiting Renderosity and check out the Poser Hair tutorials. Concepts could easily apply to Discreet MAX as well.

Jiger

Well this is the best I can do using a hair mask. Maybe someone knows a better way but the black extends deep into the hair.

Ken

Hello again good people !

At 04.25 am (my local time) after answering Marthig's post I finally gave it quits, but I see there's been folks busy while I was sleeping :pleased: .
Haven't tried anything new since, but as the day passes I'll see what I can do with your suggestions.

Marthig: >What I am sorry about is that I could not give you an easier solution.<
You have absolutely no reason to be sorry about anything, Marthig. You gave it a go and came up with a solution that was something else than when I tried the similar.
Even though it didn't quite "hit the mark", posting this problem to RP made me come out from my home office "cubicle" and start talking to people active in this kind of work. As such - that is a great reward and in the process made me start thinking in other directions.
I'm most happy you decided to give it a try :thumbsup:.

Kraellin: You spotted the basic problem just right, there, and your solution will for sure be one I'll consider. From there I'll be able to fill in strands to break up the "perfect" lines using a one pixel brush. All it takes is to make it look right.
Also, I did contemplate the masking approach - but didn't think of the luminosity channel .. :o: . I'll give that a spin and see what happends.

>...about painting skin tones, see nancyj's response is this thread:<
Yes ! Yes, yes yes... thank you very much for this pointer :thumbsup: . It's exactly what I was looking for. I was going in about this direction but missed some of the things NancyJ points out.

Panpan: Yes, I've tried that too, but since the texture is a jpeg and not my own (it's a Kozaburo) I can only take out mats and defringe in photoshop. The black drop-shadow comes from the lighting rig in Max. Two Area lights - one from front right and one fill from "oblique" left.

Xaran: Very impressive, and very close !!
I think that in the end run I'll be using bits and pieces of all the suggestions I get here.
Thank you for showing me this :classic:

panjak: >I suggest visiting Renderosity and check out the Poser Hair tutorials.<
I see you spotted my "fake" .. :wink:
Yes, it's DAZ Vicky 3 and Kozaburo's "All-back Hair" imported from Poser 4 to 3DS Max 5.1. This since I can't afford a photographer, model, hair artist, make-up artist etc etc, so I'll have to go with what I got access to.

As for Renderosity - yes, I've been there for years now and much of what I've learned this far stems from there. Though I still use it as a resource I wouldn't take the problem there for debate.
You see, in a thread at their forums I accedently happend to lower my guard and admit I'm having this problem with being slightly dyslectic and English is not my native tongue.
This proved to be a bad move since it was found an easy target for ridicule ...

To most part, that's why I brought the subject matter to RP instead.

Cameraken: What you did is good enough and shows there's a possibility to use a mask. As I told Kraellin, I've been thinking about a mask of some sort, but just havent found the right approach yet.
Personally I think a combo of masking-cloning-painting will be the way to go.

Thank you all for your efforts with coming up with a solution !
You have all contributed to making my thinking process take new routes and see the problem from new angles.
My hopes for getting this thing done has risen conciderable and I've met some really nice people in the process.
Love this place now !

-- Jiger --

jiger,

you're welcome :)

yes, nancy's tips are quite good. flora has some great one's too regarding this sort of thing. i just dont know where to find them at the moment. i also know nancyj just wrote and posted a tutorial on the subject, so you might check the tutorial forum.

and regarding other forums where you get ripped to death, yeah, been there, done that, burned the place to the ground :) there's two kinds of critiques/critics, invalidative and constructive. i like it here because folks here are of the 2nd type, constructive.

so again, welcome to RP :)

and keep us posted on how this all goes!

Craig

Thank you, Kraellin !

I must say I've never felt more welcome to any forum or resource as I've done here at RP. I mean - after my initial post there have been half a dozen people doing their best at helping me out and sharing their ideas of possible approaches. All of them in a warm and freindly manner.
That's a lot more than I could have ever expected.

...and regarding other forums where you get ripped to death, yeah, been there, done that, burned the place to the ground Well, I see you've had your share of this - shall we say - pityful behaviour..?
Why some feel the need to do this is beyond my comprehension since it's not as if you're competing for some prestigeous seat at an animation studio, or anything. Perhaps it's their way of feeling acknowledged when they can put someone else down in the dirt.
i like it here because folks here are of the 2nd type, constructive.
... and very true you are !

I've spent a good part of the last 48 hours browsing the RP's forums, tutorials and resource pages and I haven't forund one single shred of arrogance or condescense anywhere in any thread.
As you say - all constructive and aimed at sheding light in darkness.
Perhaps this is since image editing and retouch is a discipline with it's unique terms and those who have walked the path for a while know and understand what kind of difficulties you can run into.

And - yes, I will keep you posted on the progress.
Today (saturday) I've decided to "take the day off" - apart from reading and answering posts, and then I have to put it aside in favour of some "real" image work (yes, I do a bit of work for a local commercials producer).
But I'll get back to it, rest assured !

// and - since now having revieled my tendency towards dyslexia, I hope you have patience with my spelling, laguage errors and strange choise of words //

-- Jiger --

// and - since now having revieled my tendency towards dyslexia, I hope you have patience with my spelling, laguage errors and strange choise of words //

you're doing fine. i speak fluent 'gibberish', 'dyslexia', 'garbage', 'foulmouth', and a few others ;)

Craig

Phew ... nice to know.

Then you won't have any problems understanding me.

(To brag a bit - I can keep my trap shut in 14 different languages and that doesn't include the local African dialects... ) :lmao:

-- Jiger --

Jiger Kraellin

No argument here I got The Prize for Speaking gibberish and strange choice of words.

Ken

Well, well !
Seems I'm in the best of company here .. :)

Btw - I now see that this post have had 132 (!) viewings since posted (my own not counted in, I take it) and so far 18 replies.

I for one find that rather astonishing.

-- Jiger --

Hi, me again !

After having done some simplier color correction jobs for a client and having dinner, I suddenly remebered a couple of lines from the movie "Matrix - Reloaded".
They're from the scene where Neo have entered through The Door of Light and is faceing The Architect who tells Neo about the six versions of The Matrix :
The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art.
Flawless. Sublime. A triumph equaled only by it's monumental failure ...
// ........ //
I've since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.
...............
I then realised that in the case of "Grace" I was not working with a photograph of a real humanbeing, but with a 3D approximate I had constructed. A representation of a person and thus - an illusion.
Ergo - my striving for pefection with the troublesome hair was overkill.
Since I was working with an illusion I only required a level of "perfection" which maintainded the illusion.

So, with this in mind I began with separating the model and hair (as was) from the background using the Alpha Channel that came with the Tiff. After pasting as new layer on top of a new, white background it was actually quite a straight forward job.
Working with an image in 3000 x 4000 pixels naturaly made it a whole lot easier.
Copying bits and pieces from "perfect" parts of the hair I simply pasted them in where needed, did some slight displacement here and there, rotated "an itch" if necessary and sort of "melted" the copied pieces into the image using the Eraser Tool with various brushes and Opacity settings. Kind of "defringing" the patches.
A bit of Healing Brush, a bit of Clone Tool and - voila - there it was !

There is still a lot of work to do with the image (finetuning tones in the hair, improving skintone, eyes etc etc) but I have made a test print with it in the size it will have in the final image - and it works.
There is no need for better detail than is now. The illusion holds.

So - I want to thank each and everyone of you who assisted me with advise, hints, recommendations, analysis and having go's at it yourselves.
You all contributed to getting my thinking process going in directions I would not have thought of by myself.

Also, this process have ment I've met some people whom I like to count as my friends from now on as well as a very positive first experience of Retouch PRO.

Thank you all very much !

-- Jiger --

that looks a ton better. very well done!

Craig

... and it took a ton off my chest !! :)

Thank you !

-- Jiger --

You can render the alpha channel seperate in 3D MAX and use this as the mask, I have done this on several occasions with both still renders and motion video render (taken then to after effects) This should give you a solution straight away to use in photoshop. I will try to remember to look at this tomorrow at work to get exact details correctley for you.

Hello creeduk !

Thank you for replying to my post. Nice of you to do so. I appreciate it.

You can render the alpha channel seperate in 3D MAX and use this as the mask...
>......
I will try to remember to look at this tomorrow at work to get exact details correctley for you.
Thanks creeduk, but you don't need to do that. In as good as all cases when I use Max to generate image bases I always render Tiffs with Alpha. If you check three posts up (Bad hair day - conclusion) from your you'll see I mention separaing the model from the background using Alpha.
In the case of fixing "Grace's" hair it was very helpful since from the models outline and out it was transparent. No background to erase when copying hair pieces.

Rendering Tiffs with Alphas is a true asset since most of my things in Max ends up as composites in Photoshop. As with the fake soda pop ad below.
The model, hat, bikinitop, right forearm and hand, can and straw were all rendered out as separate Tiffs and then composited back together in Photoshop. I even separated the top of the can from the rest of it and did the shiny metal effect in Photoshop.
Unfortunately, much of detail and colour tone is lost from scaling the image down and applying jpeg compression.

-- Jiger --

Nice work, I used to create tiff with alpha with but I guess when i started doing the video I changed to 32 bit targa files in sequence they seemed to work better.

I thought as you had already started to edit you might have wanted to just get a new alpha.

I guess that is where speed reading gets you...lol you miss the answer has already been found. glad it all worked out.

Creeduk !

Nice work...
Thank you, creeduk !
Well, using 3D is just a way for me to get around involving a photographer, model, hair stylist, make-up artist and all that - which I couldn't pay for even to save my life... :grin:
The result leaves much to ask for, but hey - it's "cheap".

I used to create tiff with alpha but I guess when i started doing the video I changed to 32 bit targa files in sequence they seemed to work better.
I fully understand since I originally learned this "trick" to render out Tiffs with Alpha from animation studios. Seems the pro's do this all the time - render out as sequenced stills, that is, rather than AVI's or QT's.
Leaves space to frame-by-frame editing (if needed) in apps like Photoshop.
Afterwords the sequenced stills are taken to - say Premiere - to be converted to video.
But I guess you know all about that since you work with the media.

Thanks for wanting to help me out, creeduk !

-- Jiger --