Hi All...

Just reaching out to the world... seeing what comes back.

-conrad
http://conraddigital.com

Great work!

I was looking at your "befores", are your photogs using digital or scans? I see that same fuzzy, red, yellow look from some of my photogs. They shoot digital, but with their SLR lens. I always have to color correct and sharpen. Well, done. :)

Conrad, welcome to RetouchPRO :bigthmb:

Your before and afters are a lesson and an inspiration for all! :classic:
And your attention to detail has made me one very unhappy nitpicker - no wait a minute, the "Nokia Still Life" is a a dud!! :wink:

BTW Marinari Sauce can de posted here ( The RetouchPRO Cookbook ( http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=93))

Congratulations!

Rô

Nice work Conrad.

Were you just posting for views of your work or are you looking for position?

Chris

Hi All..

Thanks for the kind words.. I really wasn't looking for a pat on the back, but it certainly looks like I got a few. Being from NYC, you don't come across so many cordial people.. so a heart felt thanks from a jaded ole New Yorker :)

GRAPF:

about 90% of the images are analog... The digial photos were quite problematic.. all but the Prescriptives work I did with Jesse Frohman... His digital files are quite nice. Had problems with quality on the Tom Munro stuff though... It never fails... even great film is held captive by the scanner operator. The old saying.. a chain is only as strong as it's weekest link really holds true here.

ByRo:

Thanks for the kind welcome to the site. I'd supply my recipe for a Marinara, but then I'd have to kill you and I really don't want to do that just yet ;) Keep in touch... i'm getting soft in my old age.

Cricket1961

Well, I've been viewing this area for a while and thought I get involved. What I'd really like to do is network with some working photographers, reps and such. I'm currently VERY employed, but looking to branch out a bit... Always up for new challenges


THanks again everyone.. i'll be popping my head in and out to see what kind of trouble you're all getting into..

-conrad

Hi Conrad,

Congratulations on your work! It is always good to see nicely retouched images!

Cheers!


George Rutherford
www.seagullsfly.com
www.fotolog.net/rutherford

Amazing work there. Do you freelance or are you employed by a company. I work in the UK at a DVD packaging company but I would really like to do more freelance work. Any advise? My website is www.retouchme.co.uk :pleased:

Are you looking to freelance in the UK? I'm not sure what the market's like there, but here in NYC there's always plenty of work. There are many retouching agencies here and they're always looking for retouchers.. The thing that's big now is "transparency" when retouching. You tend to use a lot of blurring to achieve soft skin and that will DEFINITELY get you nowhere... I find myself doing a lot of dodging and burning at very close zoom ratios to achieve my skin work...

Good eye, though... and best of luck

-conrad

Hello

I am doing some work now for a New York based fashion photographer. The last few examples on my website are his images. I can accept files via ftp so it doesn't really matter where the photographer is based. I haven't tried the technique you mention regarding dodge and burn. Is this used to even out the skin tone? I do use some Median blur but at a low opacity. I spend most of my time using the healing brush and clone stamp. I am really interested to learn new ways of doing retouching. Are there any tutorials on how to achieve this? Or is this a trade secret? ;-)

Thanks a lot

Shelby

Conrad is right. The use of a softlight layer filled with gray and painted with either black or white is the only way to get realistic skin texture. In Katrin Eismanns book it is gone over how to achieve this. In the new version coming out this October, I have an image that shows exactly what is going on with the technique in conjunction with the healing tool.
One thing I forgot to add when I told her about the technique for the second version of the book is that using a black brush can leave a gray "film" that is not nice when used on flesh. For Darkening(burning) pick a area around the hairline that is a darker area of the flesh. This will give you a good balance that you can then change in the color picker using the brightness slider to make darker/lighter while keeping the balance.
Good luck. Conrad is right. For high end retouching blurring the flesh and recreating texture will not fly at all.

Chris

Chris,

If you use black to burn and get that grayed over skin color can you not just use a low opacity brush with mode set to Color, and pick a good color surrounding the grayed area and brush over it to restore the color. Seems to work for me but then I am not high end.

Larry

To dodge and burn using a soft-light layer, and avoid getting distracted by the off colours, make a duplicate of the original layer and place it above the soft-light layer with blending set to Colour. Now you'll only be tweaking the luminosity.

The hue of skin varies very little with the luminosity, but if you are doing some heavy dodging / burning you'll probably have to correct the saturation, in which case Larry's tip will help - if you have a reference tone to copy.

Rô

Chris,

If you use black to burn and get that grayed over skin color can you not just use a low opacity brush with mode set to Color, and pick a good color surrounding the grayed area and brush over it to restore the color. Seems to work for me but then I am not high end.

Larry
Larry

What you suggest would work but with one caveat. You are doing twice as much work. When doing the initial painting with white and black(or the color of your choice) you are using a low opoacity brush to begin with on RGB images. You will find that with CMYK images that opacity will increase.
The graying out that occurs with a black brush is really pretty minimal. But the retouchers who are very anal will notice it and be bothered by it.
You could do what Ro suggests, but you really need to keep the number of layers down when doing retouching. Also if there needed to be any kind of healing brush work or stamp tool work done you will find that you have to really figure out more logistics than you want to deal with. At this point most retouchers will create a merge of all layers and place it on top, effectivley losing the adjustability of all layers beneath.
If th esoft layer technique is done correctly there should be no introduction of oversaturation into the image. THe softlight layer however is a excelent way of getting rid of a cast in any direction by usiing a selection and curves. Locally with a brush and going into individual channels.

Chris

Everything being discussed here so far can be considered a great way of achieving the end result. The important consideration here is flexibility. If you use a GRAY layer in an overlay/soft mode, you can dodge and burn with white or black till your heart's content.. The problem is, that if your dodging and burning are on the same layers-- no flexibility... If you REALLY wanna get your hands dirty and do things the smart way...-conrad

Conrad

Nice detail. One thing to add is that the layer filled with Gray should alway be underneath any color adjustment layers. Otherwise all hell breaks loose.

I am with you about thte credit stuff. I have one photographer who gives me credit on everything he gets published. One out of many.
I talked with Melvin Sokolsky, a sometime client of mine about just this thing.
It was just a talk in general that he started. He had a retoucher in California that asked him to give him credit for the image since he made it look good.
Melvin took all of his work away from him. His opinion is that he took the shot, it is his vision of what it should be, and his direction that the retoucher is following. Therefore it is 100% Melvin's shot and the retoucher was just another tool to get there.

I understand his point of view. But as a retoucher, I have seen to many of th ebig name photographers come in with half assed images that were lacking from proper photography technique and making them look stunning. Just to see that they get credit as a incredible photographer who really understands the use of light and shadow.

I'll join that orinization if you start it Conrad.

Chris

I don't use a Gray layer when I've got my D&B set... It replaces the need for a gray layer. Although... A gray layer can replace my DARKEN/LIGHTEN curves for those who like useing the overlay method..

Now, as for the credits. There are a few mags(mostly European) that will give the retoucher credit and that's wonderful. Don't see it here too much. In regards to art buying and retouching. I don't believe in asking for something that i dont deserve. If a photographer sits with me and directs me to his final vision, then that's fine... it's his work. HOWEVER, about 35% of the time a photographer will simply ask me to perform "MAGIC" on his/her image... and that's when it gets mirky because the photo then becomes MY interpretation and thus credit should be due. I was talking to a French collegue recently and he was talking about Pascal over at Box and how he's trying to get rights to images. He's way over the top anyway, has more money than God and turns away people because it's a Tuesday and hasn't had his coffee yet(this is all rumor, not necessarily fact).

This new organization would have to have some influential people in it to work. Remember... right now i'm the little elf in the dark room, Michael Thompson and Steven Miesel don't have my home phone numbers(yet) and leverage is the key to any successful coup... So I plan and strategize and wait to pounce. Glad to know I've got some brave soldiers like yourself lying in wait ;)

hey guys, tips and clues well appreciated by many I'd think. So thanks :)

Heyrad, other than all else, classy stuff

I don't use a Gray layer when I've got my D&B set... It replaces the need for a gray layer. Although... A gray layer can replace my DARKEN/LIGHTEN curves for those who like useing the overlay method..

Now, as for the credits. There are a few mags(mostly European) that will give the retoucher credit and that's wonderful. Don't see it here too much. In regards to art buying and retouching. I don't believe in asking for something that i dont deserve. If a photographer sits with me and directs me to his final vision, then that's fine... it's his work. HOWEVER, about 35% of the time a photographer will simply ask me to perform "MAGIC" on his/her image... and that's when it gets mirky because the photo then becomes MY interpretation and thus credit should be due. I was talking to a French collegue recently and he was talking about Pascal over at Box and how he's trying to get rights to images. He's way over the top anyway, has more money than God and turns away people because it's a Tuesday and hasn't had his coffee yet(this is all rumor, not necessarily fact).

This new organization would have to have some influential people in it to work. Remember... right now i'm the little elf in the dark room, Michael Thompson and Steven Miesel don't have my home phone numbers(yet) and leverage is the key to any successful coup... So I plan and strategize and wait to pounce. Glad to know I've got some brave soldiers like yourself lying in wait ;)

Conrad

Hmmm. They(and a few others) do have my cell number. Not nice that they do always : )
Pascal works much differently then us. He has contracts with everyone, most especially with the Photographers. He really does have the rights to many many things, and for this reason, Mario Testino and others are shopping around for new retouchers. They are starting to dislike his style of look and want to have their own shine through.I have meetings set up with many to get their work in here. Fingers crossed. Luckily I have done a lot of work for them already.

I think we can make it work. Just need to get it started.

Chris

I constantly see credits going out to stylists, hair, makeup and often times their assistants, but NEVER do you see credits to the retoucher. The retoucher NEVER gets the credit ....I'd say there's a Catch-22 situation in there somewhere. :wink:

Not sure exactly, but when things like this happen it's often because it's the logic that runs that way. (and saying "Catch-22 situation" makes you look fiendishly clever :D ).

Something like... if you are a really good retoucher and you get your name associated with an image, then that'll end up meaning that the original photographer could be (or was) crap. BUT, this is the guy that's paying you the money.

go figure......

Rô

copyright is a dark doormouse, as of maybe 5 years ago, a 15% difference in the graphic content in Australia consituted a claim for copyright. Maybe different now, maybe different elsewhere also. Was attached to artwork, but heck, define artwork

Wow, sounds like I might have stirred up a hornet's nest :)

The perfect example of our industry and the pros that make those images look so amazing and transparent is similar to the CIA lobby.. all those "unknown" operatives who died in the line of duty who's lives were reduced to a single, anonymous star on a wall. Maybe we're a noble breed, like the Samurai of old who don't seek recognition, fame or wealth but study the art and devote their lives to an ideal....

What the hell am I talking about? I livei in friggin New York City!!! Somebody stop me already :)


Chris....

We need to talk

-conrad

ribs are breaking here, yes you have opened a hornet's nest, lol, rolfmao here

despite all else, thanks for your sharing....however, if I can get you alone, m going to hijack you for jewellery retouching, lol

Sounds hot Cassidy.... ;)

Interesting d/b technique. Something like this? (see attached, drag folder to working image of any rez).

Picking up all the retouching tid bit crumbs here!
Yummy! YUMMY! :wink:

Good brain food! :bigthmb:

Loverly

P.S.Heyrad and Chris keep the "trade secrets coming"! :nod:

Interesting d/b technique. Something like this? (see attached, drag folder to working image of any rez).

Hi Doug... Yup.. that's essentially it. The rest is up to you. It's not much different than the gray layer d&b technique, but i've added some helpful hints to make the job a bit easier..

As for the trade secrets... I'm sure Chris(being Italian like myself) will agree that we COULD share more, but then we'd have to kill you....

-Don Corrado(conrad)

hmmmm or maybe we could all just be retouching slaves instead of you killing us?
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: (we are not worthy)
Think about all that power! :lol:

PLEEeeeeeease???????????????? :wink:

Loverly

This may be considered heresy, but retouching is a craft, not really an art. It can come close sometimes, but our task is to make someone else's work look even better. The job of retouching has plenty of exciting challenges and rewards, but there will be few clients who will want to recognize you with more than a thanks and a check.

I agree with the dodge and burn by channels method being one of the most efficient methods for skin edits. Reality is richer than the imagination; skin detail can be faked relatively easily, but seldom is it done in a convincing way. However, client taste varies...what works for Clairol may horrify an art director at Vogue...

This may be considered heresy, but retouching is a craft, not really an art. It can come close sometimes, but our task is to make someone else's work look even better. The job of retouching has plenty of exciting challenges and rewards, but there will be few clients who will want to recognize you with more than a thanks and a check..

Well I don't know how long you've been retouching or how well you do it or the kind of retouching you actually do, but I have to strongly disagree with you. First off, Webster states that a craft is "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill". An art is the "subtle or imaginative ability in inventing, devising, or executing something". From these definitions alone we can see that retouching is both an art and a craft. Not either or. There are times when I simply have to correct a bad scan of a good photo(not art) and there are times when I have to create something from nothing. When the photographer asks me to be creative for a still life job because photography alone cannot achieve the end results... that's art. And if the photographer is incapable of creating his/her "art" without the creative input of others than is he/she really an artist as well? Better yet.. if an advertising department comes up with an idea for an ad campaign and the art director develops the concepts right down to hiring the photographer and that photographer merely captures on film the concepts created by said art director.. then is THIS photographer now a craftsman or an artist? And does he/she deserve proper credit for his/her work?

I'm sure you're a very capable retoucher and I have nothing but respect for anyone who gets involved with a discussion like this one... just try and keep in mind that we, as retouchers, are as an important part(artistically or otherwise) of any project as anyone else.. and in my experience.. often more so.

I'll take the clients thank yous and i'll cash his check, but that doesn't mean I can't change his attitude....

Just my opionion.. i could be wrong

-conrad

ok, my question on the credits thing isnt if a retoucher deserves credit or not, it's where are you going to show it? in a hollywood movie you always have a credits list at the end of the movie and they'll rightfully include the makeup artists, set directors, grips and all those that played a key part in the making of that movie. but, where are you going to put the credits list on a retouched photograph? in a fashion shot, for instance, there may be a makeup person, a hair stylist, the photographer, his assistants, a retoucher, etc. that just aint gonna fit on the photo ;)

ok, that was a bit tongue in cheek. but seriously, what credit do you want and how would this be done? if you're in a 'photographic house', not even the photographer gets individual credit, just the company. Ford Motor company doesnt list all the people that did the work to make a car on its advertising nor on its product. so, what we talking about here specifically? if a client hires a photographer who in turn sub-contracts a retoucher, you want the photographer to give credit to the retoucher when he presents the finished product to the client?

i think realisitcally, this is always going to be a hit and miss kind of situation. the movie industry does it. the music industry usually does it, but a lot of other industries dont. if you're a contractor building a home, you list YOUR company as the builder. you dont list the sub-contractors you might end up using. i see reasons for and against both ways. as the contractor, regardless of the industry, you are the person the client went to. it's your job. how you get it done is your responsibility and the client doesnt care as long as the job is done satisfactorily. thus, the contractor is the overall responsible agent, even if he NEVER does a single piece of the work himself. and, being the responsible agent, gets the credit. HE got the job done.

now, yes, i do think retouchers/restorers deserve credit. i do. but you ARE the sub-contractor. you get credit FROM THE CONTRACTOR, not the client. you get it in the form of a paycheck and maybe a thank you. and i think that's all you're truly obligated to get. that the contractor might include you in a credits list is an extra bonus, but i dont believe its necessarily obligatory. you got the job, you got the paycheck. you were not the principle agent. yes, hollywood does list the folks that worked on the film, but i also recall a story i heard years ago about folks that worked for free on a hollywood film as long as they got their name in the credits. it was like free advertising and worth far more than an actual paycheck. so, i would ask the same question here, would you be willing to receive no paycheck for your work if you got in the credits list for your retouching?

Craig

Well I don't know how long you've been retouching or how well you do it or the kind of retouching you actually do, but I have to strongly disagree with you. First off, Webster states that a craft is "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill". An art is the "subtle or imaginative ability in inventing, devising, or executing something". From these definitions alone we can see that retouching is both an art and a craft. Not either or. There are times when I simply have to correct a bad scan of a good photo(not art) and there are times when I have to create something from nothing. When the photographer asks me to be creative for a still life job because photography alone cannot achieve the end results... that's art. And if the photographer is incapable of creating his/her "art" without the creative input of others than is he/she really an artist as well? Better yet.. if an advertising department comes up with an idea for an ad campaign and the art director develops the concepts right down to hiring the photographer and that photographer merely captures on film the concepts created by said art director.. then is THIS photographer now a craftsman or an artist? And does he/she deserve proper credit for his/her work?

I'm sure you're a very capable retoucher and I have nothing but respect for anyone who gets involved with a discussion like this one... just try and keep in mind that we, as retouchers, are as an important part(artistically or otherwise) of any project as anyone else.. and in my experience.. often more so.

I'll take the clients thank yous and i'll cash his check, but that doesn't mean I can't change his attitude....

Just my opionion.. i could be wrong

-conrad

Conrad

I have nothing to say to add to this. Hear Hear!
It is just a matter of time when an effective retoucher can influence his clients ability to shoot better. It becomes a collaborative effort to achieve a destination, and any good photographer will admit it.

Chris

ok, that was a bit tongue in cheek. but seriously, what credit do you want and how would this be done? if you're in a 'photographic house', not even the photographer gets individual credit, just the company. Ford Motor company doesnt list all the people that did the work to make a car on its advertising nor on its product. so, what we talking about here specifically? if a client hires a photographer who in turn sub-contracts a retoucher, you want the photographer to give credit to the retoucher when he presents the finished product to the client?
Craig

Craig

In the past my Credits have always been in the magazines right under the Photographers name. Cleary in view at the front of any story.

Chris

To all those interested... :)

In this month's GOTHAM magazine, there's a wonderful spread/story at the back of the book. Forget who shot it, but it's editorial. What does that mean to all those who don't know? It means that everyone involved(especially the photographer) got paid little or nothing to do the job. Why would they do this? Well, it's simple.. High-end photographers do editorial work for little or no money in effort to attract the advertising money. The more a photographers work is seen, the more prestige he/she is said to have. And if you get editorial spreads in magazines like French Vogue or Numbero or Another Magazine.. then you're next year should be blooming with all kinds of catalog and advertising work(if you've got a smart rep.).. SO... what happens when these photographers shoot these spreads(i.e., GOTHAM)? They make sure that the opening page contains credits to the photographer. In some cases, it's just the photographer. In other cases, like GOTHAM, they listed the shooter, the hair person, the makeup person, the stylist and even the friggin stylists assistant.. but NOWHERE was there a credit for the retoucher. The same person who probably made next to nothing for the job just to get it in his book. Why was he not included? Your guess is as good as mine, but it's wrong no matter how you slice it. I know very few retouchers or retouching studios who make money on editorial because it only pays a few hundred an image(if any) and the client usualy wants proofs(which are expensive). God forbid you have a second round of color.. your margins go right down the drain and you can right off another time consuming job and hope it looks great in your book... Oh boy!

Let me be clear here... I live and work in New York City. Where the average rent for a studio apt is about $1800/month.. Some of you live in the boonies and have no idea why i'm making a stink... Well, here in the big city... things cost money and they cost a lot of money. 4 color prints(CMYK for you home gamers) run anywhere from $75 - $300 depending on size and turnaround time and most clients wanna see 'em when you're done retouching... So when I talk about a few hundred an image for editorial.. Don't gimme crap cause you think that's a lot of money where you come from... New York City is not Kansas, my little Dorothy's.... just an FYI. And all due respect to all those who live in Kansas.. it's merey a metaphor :)

My next issue is with "usage". That means that when a photographer shoots an artist, celebrity or what have you, he owns the rights to the photograph... He can then resell the license to that image over and over and over again over the course of his life.. making him a great deal of money, depending on the image and the subject.. Now, in my experiences... these images are highly artistic compositions and demand great care in achieving the final look and feel of the image. This is where the retoucher comes in... In many cases, I've "made" the image with my "eye" and my abilities... Maybe here, too.. I could get rights to that image. Because that image would not be worth a plug nickle if the retoucher didn't make it pretty.... This sharing of licensing and photographers will probably happen when monkey's fly out of my ass or Osama Bin Laden is captured-- whichever comes first-- so I won't rant and rave about it.. But it's something to consider.... if not for fun

I'm getting too cranky in my old age... I think I'll change the subject on my next post...

-conrad

That was quite a rant!
I have to agree with Conrad on these 2 points.

1: Retouchers definitly deserves more credits for the VALUE / WORTH he adds to a picture. (Im sure anybody who ever saw a "before" of any beauty shot can attest to that)

2: and Yup, I can confirm that NYC is a hella expensive place to be living. (especially for a canadian) :)


-loc

Hey guys,
I tied Heyrad's niffy layers on a pic that was very dark. I have to say it is very clever and works great! I'll post it in my Loverly's show N Tell in the critics forum.

Loverly

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?p=100765#post100765

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/03/1046540121180.html?oneclick=true

Wouldn't it be wonderfull to be famous?

If you were to be famous/renouned for producing wonderfull images from rubbish shots (the phase I like - to polish a turd), you would get every half decent photographer sending you images of poor quality expecting some kind of magical, super fast, cheap, result.

I trained (within graphic design employment) as a scanner operator, for those who think I was placing document on an epson flatbed, let me expand. I worked for a repro house in Leeds (UK) with a team of 'old school' repro guys, who worked with film, making colour corrections with masks, and exposing Neg/Pos/Neg. Our scanner was a proper drum scanner that would image a flat copy or transparency direct to film or onto system for output. We worked within the ar community producing duotone books (real duotones, produced by scanning a B/W original with different gradations 'curves' and printing in two black plates or black and a colour) We produced for Norman Parkinson, Martin Parr, John Stoddart, Fay Godwin and won many awards for our efforts.

Ah yes - my point... I think most retouchers would rather do creative work on good images and be payed as such than do mostly corrective work and try to justify the cost to the photographer/client.

I recently had a photographer I work with 'go digital'. He was a very good photgrapher when shooting on film and I get the scans produced (DRUM SCANNED) especially on one particular job I am involved with where sports shots are taken on fast 35mm film, a grainy kind of quality after being enlarged by 900%. I am now working with this photographer, setting up profiles, conversion factors and a new system of lighting as he has become obsessed by exposure scales, MBytes, USM, 'are the eyes sharp'. OK the eyes may look sharp but the overall image is 'flat as a fart'

Whenever the issue of credit for the retoucher comes up I remember a story about a retoucher who published to the net (I would let you see, but I can't - read on) a before and after image from a magazine to show the model was not after all the goddess she looked in the final print as she had pi**ed him of at his workstation with crazy demands. (he was swiftly unemployed and legal action was taken by the models agent...)

All in all, I am glad my name is recognised within the industry (hope to more) and get payed for the work I do.

I am glad of my traditional back ground (knowing how USM really works, scanning by LED numbers in CMYK or CYMK as it used to be, knowing that a highlight is never, NEVER 0.0.0.0 or 255.255.255, understanding that a highlight in an ICR set can be -4% black and that a red colour can be 110% magenta in the brightest point [WHAT! I hear you cry]) LOL...

but thats another story involving the phrase "what do they teach in college now"

sorry if this makes no scence - just thinking out loud.

Ian

The rest of us had to start somewhere... when I did my course it was on (what was then) the new imacs. 15" monitor, crazy coloured backs... but then again I did my course 7 years ago now... so I have 6 years industry experience (Artworking and Design - DCS2, spot colours, foils, embossing mean anything to anyone?). Perhaps a drop in the ocean to some, but I am still willing to learn as much as possible. I am actually working on a fashion image now and I will be utilising the Dodge and Burn method discussed here. I will post my work as soon as it is complete. Wish me luck.
:classic:

Really interesting reading. And I share the frustration. Yes, I agree that retouchers should get credit when it's deserved. I think though the problem is in the term "Retoucher." Sounds so light and unimportant. I think some of us should be called "Photo Illustrators."

I've been at it 14 years. I don't do much fashion, but I think I'd like to try. Mostly I'm doing manipulations and turning multiple photos into what I consider works of art. But what I'm complaining about lately is the perception in the industry that what we do is easy. That anybody with Photoshop can be a retoucher.

I live in Northern NJ where it's just as expensive to live as NYC. After all I gotta maintain a car. I consider myself a high-end retoucher and I also get no credit. As I work for agencies, I never have contact with the end-client. I've worked on jobs for all the major car manufacturers as well as other big-name companies, but none know who I am. The credit always goes to the photographer and the agency.

Well, I would like to change that. Marketing is too expensive to let a good job go unnoticed. Word-of-mouth is the best way to get more clients. But if no one is talking about you, it's really tough. I mean, I can't even use samples of my work in my online portfolio.

If an association is formed, I'll sign up too.

I think though the problem is in the term "Retoucher." Sounds so light and unimportant. I think some of us should be called "Photo Illustrators."

I've been at it 14 years. I don't do much fashion, but I think I'd like to try. Mostly I'm doing manipulations and turning multiple photos into what I consider works of art. But what I'm complaining about lately is the perception in the industry that what we do is easy. That anybody with Photoshop can be a retoucher.

Hello everyone,

I agree with emart's point of view. As "retoucher", I think we are doing a lot more than just "re-touch" an image, but to create a new one. I had jobs that need to change the mood of a picture, change the lighting or combine several photographer's pictures into one image. I think we did so much, but still without a credit. It seems unfair for us who have supplied something to made the picture better, but are not mentioned and unknown. I think different retouchers have their own style of retouching as well, just like different styles of different photographers. So we should have a credit as well.

Sometimes I think instead of retouch, we are like "photo re-constructors" *LOL*

Hi All...
Chris and Conrad are right. The use of a softlight gray layer, painted with white and/or black small size brush is the best and fast way to preserve skin texture. Channel by channel, pore by pore retouching is another alternative, if you know additive/ subractive color principles, or your retouching background
has chrome retouching experiences.
Good luck all.

Yonac

http://www.retouchnyc.com

yonac@mac.com

How much time do you spend on each image using that method? I am spending about 3 hours, sometimes 4. This would be for a full shot image (not just a facial shot).

Hiya Shel,

Well that depends on the file size, the amount of retouching needed and so forth. On a commercial beauty ad, for instance, it can take a full day to achieve the desired results. Especially when the art director(s) cast a model with really bad skin and expect "transparent perfection" as I like to call it. They throw you a less than perfect subject and want a Rembrandt in return.. Not that it can't be done.. it just takes time. The key here is transparency. you DON'T want it to look like it's been retouched. There are millions of different ways to remove texture and bring it back, to dodge and burn till your eyes bleed and to achieve the perfect blend of detail and color...

Just remember the Triangle theory... fast and good isn't cheap, cheap and good isn't fast and fast and cheap isn't good....

You'll get a feel for where things need to go and with the contrast layers added to help you see the "finer" problems.. you should make it look nice in no time...

Keep it at!

-conrad

Hey Chris! You got anything to add to this?

I consider myself a photo-mechanic-- not retoucher-- because I fix problems, change parts, do a little tuning, a few upgrades, and do the occasional overhaul, and I don't have much to do with retouching as it stands.

As for the recognition-- I don't know, recognition is nice because it does boost business, but what photographer or model really wants it known that they needed "work"? Retouchers are the unsung heros and sidekicks of photography, often saving the day, but never getting the kudos for it. I don't expect it to ever change.

Personally, I think there's a lot more recognition in low/mid-end work than there ever could be in high-end work. If you want the big money and the big jobs, I guess you have to forego the recognition. But I do dislike the high-end industry for this "I'll hire you but you don't exist" attitude.

I like low-mid end work because it provides a nice balance between work and play, there is recognition, and there's no stress factor or definitive deadlines. I've been approached by a couple of high-end photographers, but when they've given me samples I've purposely sabotaged the returns just so they would look elsewhere and I wouldn't have to look like a jerk by saying, "Look somewhere else." I'm far from a Flora or a heyrad in my work (they are awesome), and I do aspire to reach that level of detail and mastery, but at the same time I've no ambition to enter the same arena. I want to someday be the "photo arts master" living in the quaint village. :)

I will keep at it. I spend a lot of my spare time retouching and I am using that dodge and burn method now :ditsy: Hope to get better and better at it. I would actually like to work on some images that have a bit more atmosphere to them. I have been in contact with a photographer based in LA who needs some retouching - so I will keep you all posted.

I aspire to work on high-end fashion and beauty shots. The reason for this may be that I am a keen amature photographer myself and can think of nothing better than working on stunning images all day!

Thanks so much for the tips and advise!

This is the exact reason why I am Shooting and retouching. And I agree with the retouchers to an extent.
The picture is a TEAM finished product. Model/H&M/Photographer/Art direction if any/Retoucher etc...
Just couriuos what people my think of my stuff. Check out my site.
Shelby, I agree that some sort of Blur median technique happens. Depends on how painted and cloned you have made the Skin.
I do all my retouching on my pictures on my site..>>
http://homepage.mac.com/ekphotography/2005/
For the exact reason as to not be Dependent on ANYBODY except myself..
No offense to the pure retouchers. We could not live with out you.. But I prefer to atleast know what I am doing to some extent.
Dropping out backgrounds and Building backgrounds is not my cup of tea.. You lose me there, But basic Color and retouching should be known by almost all photographers.
People like steven miesel who have million dollar post crew working with him are not going to run crying the picture is theres b/c they retouched it...
On that high level, You may be easily replaced!! :nod:
E:K:

http://homepage.mac.com/ekphotography/2005/

Maybe you could share some more stuff. Like how a lot of people are getting that Ghetto look for most rappers. Like desaturated then painted back in stuff.. You know how to do that.. I guess like the dragan look?
Thanks, for anymore tips.. :kisses:
E:K:

Stunning images, really nice.

When I was at school I actually wanted to do photography. I ended up doing a graphic design course instead because in Durban (South Africa) the photography course at the Technicon was far to expensive. I have been in the UK now for 5 years and I do photography as a hobby - still waiting to get an image published in a photography mag!

Retouching is now my speciality, however I am still drawn to the photographic side.

snook305, really stunning images, and nicely retouched too... (ie. undetectable)

Thank a lot...
Hope Conrad comes back for some more tips!! :vampire:

Maybe you could share some more stuff. Like how a lot of people are getting that Ghetto look for most rappers. Like desaturated then painted back in stuff.. You know how to do that.. I guess like the dragan look?
Thanks, for anymore tips.. :kisses:
E:K:
Do mean this sort of thing?

Its quite easy, 2 layers, original/retouched colour version and a desaturated layer, overlay the colour with soft light and adjust the opacity to your tastes.

Nancy That must the Basics to begin, But check out some others. They are much more "Satiny" looking and the colors POP hard.
I just posted in another forum, That I do not understand that almost all RAP and Hip Hop Promos and albums are using this technique. Plus A LOT of movie labels use this technique, HOWEVER no one seems to pick up on the threads on it or "Know" how to do it. Is it that "BIG" of a secret.
For example DRAGAN style. That has Popped up on every forum from here to timbuktoo... And No one has really gotten that close in my mind :dead:

Well me must just be patient I guess and it will come out.
Andre Dragan mentions tweaking around with the blue channel etc.. And there are several actions, But none really come that close at all.
Ofcourse Composition wardrobe, lighting etc.. Are a big Factor.
But how are those skin tones accomplished... That is the Million dollar question I guess.
Looks Good Nancy, But it is missing a lot at the same time. They are not just simply desaturated.
They are desaturated, replacing and modifying several color channels.
Plus adding a "gleem" to the skin!!
Thanks and let's keep trying!
SN@@K :rolleyes:

Plus Nothing is QUITE EASY in the world of Photoshop in my mind and I have been using it for about 10 years now.. And Lately all the time due to digital advance.
It is quite easy to add a layer and desaturated. That is easy, It is the next steps that are the KEY.
:spchless:
Thanks again Nancy
Sn@@k :eek:

Got any example pics? I'm not a rap fan...would love to see what you're talking about and properly recreate it.

Nancy Check this site out..
http://www.llreps.com/
or
http://www.fiscusphoto.com/

Any of the photographers but check the first one out. Sacha.
If you d not know the look then I'll find some more :nod:
That ought to keep you busy for a while... ;)
Snook :cat:

hmm, I guess I'm just not seeing it, I looked at the sites you posted but I dont see what you're looking for...

Are you seriuos? :dizzy:
What your not seeing is one of the Hottest retouching going on. You cannot see the Skin tones and Semi Cartoony effect to the pictures..
Are you wearing your glasses today.. :confused:
Hhahaha
Well try this site also.
http://andrzejdragan.com/

There "nothing" to see there also.. :bigthmb:
Sn@@k

Sorry, still not seeing what you're getting at. Certainlky not seeing any cartoonyness - and for the record, I have perfect vision :P
I've been to Ragan's site before, not a fan personally, to me all I see is strong lighting and a sharp focus, probably a macro lense which can be from the camera or added in photoshop later, probably a bit of both. Theres a tutorial floating around somewhere about painting with light.
Perhaps if you explained what you feel is so special about them that might help. A before and after shot would help too ;) Without before shots its nigh on impossible to tell whats retouching and whats just good photography.

You know I don't think it is all retouching. Alot seems to be lighting and make-up.

OK, I see you guys (gals) are being difficult. Do not worry , I live with 5 Lady's in my house.
No it is not make-up and Lighting.. Yes that helps.
I'll post some before and after form some sites to see if you think that there is "nothing"
First time coming across people that just don't "see"it.. :eek:
Sn@@k

OK, I see you guys (gals) are being difficult. Do not worry , I live with 5 Lady's in my house.
No it is not make-up and Lighting.. Yes that helps.
I'll post some before and after form some sites to see if you think that there is "nothing"
First time coming across people that just don't "see"it.. :eek:
Sn@@k
You think we're being purposefully difficult? We're trying to help you but we cant see what you're talking about and you cant tell us or give a specific example of what you think is so special about these images.
I looked at the links you gave but there were a vast number and variety of different images, I certainly couldnt pin point any as being special or see any common theme accross all the examples you gave.
It would help us to see 'it' if you told us what 'it' is.

how about this: find 1 good example of the technique you're talking about, with good quality before and after pictures and I'll recreate it with step by step instructions :p I am THAT confident that there is nothing particularly special about any of these pictures.

Will do Nancy. I was not sturring trouble. But I find it hard to believe that you cannot see anything special with those sites. This topic has been and still is on EVERY retouching forum that exist, Or that I have been in. They have gained the most posts of just about any other thread, So for you to say you do not see anything, Really makes me first. Laugh, sorry but true, Second, wondering what kind of photoshopping you are doing. Collages? or Manga art? or Illustration stuff?Meaning from the ground up,Inventing everything you want. Maybe Photography is not your normal setting. Which is totally understandable.
Did you goto the Dragan site. He has a before and after shot there.
I will search now for a good example to post here, But obviuosly the before's are usually posted on the sites.
Thanks again for your interest,
Snook ;) :nod:

Check how long this thread went...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=9620399
These people Kind of "see" what I am talking about.
:blush:
Here are several sites threads..
http://deryk.photopoints.com/main/photos/photographer.aspx?ID=5286
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11746&highlight=dragan
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9898&highlight=dragan

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8566&highlight=dragan
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8597&highlight=dragan

I just found a bunch in here.. So look at some of the comments made by people in these posts.

AMAZING,INCREDIBLE,HOW DOES HE DO IT, ETC....... Are just a few comments made by fellower retouch pro people.
But You still do not see it

:bow:

:spchless:
Sn@@k

One more really LONG one I found 30 pages for one thread!! :lol:
Another Couple 100 people who kind of see it... :D
PLEASE, PLEASE,
Do not say you Don't see it... Say Yeh Maybe I see it, But don't get it... :thmbdwn:

http://photoshoptechniques.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12626&highlight=dragan

Sn@@k

Let me know if you have an ideas.
I'll post a picture if you want to try and get a similar tone and color that ALL those other people are trying to do..?
:eek:

C

But You still do not see it

and still you do not say what 'it' is. I've looked through all the images on Ragans site but I dont see any before shots...

Man, you're determined to figure this thing out.. To me, the images you're talking about looked as if they were desaturated and then hand painted... Doesn't sound like rocket science... Make a new group, bottom layer is a 100% desat, then above that add curves adj layers and play with the color using the curve... You can mask in/out what you want. The curves enable you to add color AND contrast to the image. If you place the curve in Color mode, only color will be effected. If Normal, then color and contrast. To me, that's how I'd approach it anyway.... But I'd have to have an image to play with.

Give it a shot and stop pickin on Nancyj ;)

-conrad

I looked through the threads you linked and there is no mystery there. No secret technique that no-one can replicate. The links you provided contain links to actions, guides and even a 10 layer PSD on how to achieve the effect.

Takes Two to Tango.. :tongue:
Well I have enough information to play around some more. :shocked:
I was not picking on Nancy either by the way :eek:
Thanks, Will drop it now as there are many other threads and this one is going no where obviously.

:tired:

Thanks
Sn@@k

Is this the kind of effect you're looking for? I only spent about 5 minutes on it....

-c

I used to scan loads of images similar to the ones mentioned... the secret...


They were all scanned from 10x8 prints on fuji paper...!



seems we have com full circle, how to re-create traditional techniques in a digital environment.

Long live grainy film and paper...LOL

Hey Conrad and Shelby

Sorry it took so long to answer. I have been away from the forums due to getting the studio up and running full time.

Conrad makes a good point about size and all. It really comes down, to me anyway, as to what the Photographer prefers.
All of my images(negs) that are scanned are scanned at 600 dpi and are usually in the 400 - 600 mb range and 16 bit. Any Digital files that I process are done at native resolution and at 400 dpi. So depending on the camera can be pretty big.

While I do a lot of full body images, most of my work seems to be Beauty shots from the chest up. I only use the softlight/gray layer method on skin and patterned fabrics. Also good for burning in hair highlights and such.

A face can take me up to 3-4 hours for a Vogue cover. For a Mario Sorrenti shot of the same image it could take me as little as 45 minutes with the same technique. Editors are not only a Photographers worst enemy, they are hell on retouchers.

No matter how long it takes, or how much you do, it still needs to be transparent. An image that has not gone far enough and looks good is FAR better than a image that is badly retouched and has gone to far.

Chris


Hiya Shel,

Well that depends on the file size, the amount of retouching needed and so forth. On a commercial beauty ad, for instance, it can take a full day to achieve the desired results. Especially when the art director(s) cast a model with really bad skin and expect "transparent perfection" as I like to call it. They throw you a less than perfect subject and want a Rembrandt in return.. Not that it can't be done.. it just takes time. The key here is transparency. you DON'T want it to look like it's been retouched. There are millions of different ways to remove texture and bring it back, to dodge and burn till your eyes bleed and to achieve the perfect blend of detail and color...

Just remember the Triangle theory... fast and good isn't cheap, cheap and good isn't fast and fast and cheap isn't good....

You'll get a feel for where things need to go and with the contrast layers added to help you see the "finer" problems.. you should make it look nice in no time...

Keep it at!

-conrad

Hey Chris! You got anything to add to this?

Sorry But No Paper gonna do that.. Nor any cross processing, Or any processing at all. ONLY photoshop is going to get you that look!
Sorry :eek:
Go scan all you want... :heul:
Mayybe, I say Maybe, Some old sepia 8X10 polaroids and Some colored ones and some tweaked out lighting by Baptiste or Roversi...
But Not even then.
Wake up Kids, FILM is DEAD :thumbsup:
AND No that is not the look I am looking for, Sorry. That looks like some simple desat. and some glow.
Looks like it was done in 5 minutes by the way. :spchless:
Sn@@k

I guess you all did not check out my site.
I did not start yesterday....
:wavey:

http://photoshoptechniques.com/foru...ighlight=dragan

Great technique. I am going to be trying this out ASAP!

Shellby, Nice list I threw out there..HUH?
Enjoy.. there is a Sh*t load on that site!! So much my head is spinning..

I guess you do not "see" anything special on those sites either..Like Nancy :grin: :lol:

Well One thing is for sure.. Each image has to be individual tweaked as all are different.. But it is good to have the basis and many techniques to fall back on...
Let's keep the thread going in case any new discovery's are made.. :pirate:

I was not ragging on Nancy, But you have to be pretty blind to say such a thing as " I just do not see it" I still get a chuckle thinking about it :lol: :bow:


Hey Conrad , Glas your back, Got any inputs on acheiving this " I don't get it look" we are discussing..
I am sure In NEW YORK CITY, some big shot photographer has ask you to get this look at some point in your career, Or no?

:bawling:
Sn@@k

it seems you dont agree or believe anything anyone says, these technques are easily replicated, with a little effort...

Snook

Wow, did I get into this a little late.
I see just what you are looking for Snook. You are right, it is not just a paper, or a simple desat/with the color brought back in. Even though Conrads image is not it, it is still a good shot at it for 5 minutes.

The problem is that it is NOT a simple process. Dragan used to give away his techniques a while ago. Fiskus's technique was actually achieved by his wife, who did his retouching and came up with her /his look. THey do not give out the technique. They do train a retoucher to do their work for them and that is how it is passed down. I do hope to learn it very soon. Nice to have some insider info.

So, there are obviously people out there who know what to do or have a incredible amount of time on their hands to CSI this stuff. But they, like you have seen that it is becoming very popular and are keeping their mouths closed in hopes of riding the money train. Those images bring in big bucks for a retouching house.

Sorry But No Paper gonna do that.. Nor any cross processing, Or any processing at all. ONLY photoshop is going to get you that look!
Sorry :eek:
Go scan all you want... :heul:
Mayybe, I say Maybe, Some old sepia 8X10 polaroids and Some colored ones and some tweaked out lighting by Baptiste or Roversi...
But Not even then.
Wake up Kids, FILM is DEAD :thumbsup:
AND No that is not the look I am looking for, Sorry. That looks like some simple desat. and some glow.
Looks like it was done in 5 minutes by the way. :spchless:
Sn@@k

I guess you all did not check out my site.
I did not start yesterday....
:wavey:
:knockedou

Pixel, Then why do not post how you are doing that?

Your doing a good job on the basic color tone, But yours are missing a lot of Drama and exxagerated in the shadows and highlights.

Care to drop your workflow.
Not to sound rude, But if it was SO easy, why are there thousands of threads trying to copy Dragan. Literally thousand of threads and I have yet to see anybody that comes close except for the few tries on the threads I post earlier.
Please cough up your 5 minute DRAGAN Flow :dead:
I ma sure there will be a lot of people thanking you...

:oldman:

Thanks ,
Sn@@k

Photoshop. There several threads here in retouch that never figured out the technique either. Besides the other 100 forums out there... :hairbow:

First - gather years of experience of colour knowledge... (couldn't resist - sorry)


original - as left image.... (1 min)
dupe layer (1.25 min)
desat base (original) - (1.5 mins)
mulitply layer 2 (2 mins)

add various techniques such as hue/sat or colour overlays to tweek depending on the image...

It actually took longer to place the psd's as a jpg and make it small enough to upload than it did to create the effect.

oh there may be a secrey posterisation layer in there somewhere (mums the word)

Cricket, Thank GOD. Someone who knows what I am talking about.

I almost lost it when NANCY said. I do not see it?? OR YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME :cold:

Then her groupies come out defending her saying I am being the PUSHY guy..

I listed about 2-3 and I have alot more of the HOTTEST retouching themes going on in any forum, And some one states , I do not see it?? LOL :lmao:

O.K. when the client in New York pays $1000's for retouchers to get that look.
I 'd love to see the Client say " What? I do not see it....LOL :wavey: Hello
Yeh There I do feel better... :hurt:

Also Not that I am a huge fan of HIP HOP and RAP But they are all using it in there Gangster looking shot's, Well I want to incorporate the "look" Like many others in my Style of photography.
Or to understand what is happening in order to use it in different cases, That is all.
I in no way want to "Copy" Dragan. He exxaggerates peoples defects, I do the opposite. But like the tonality of the images..
Sn@@k

:wavey:

Not to sound rude, But if it was SO easy, why are there thousands of threads trying to copy Dragan.

many people just want an easy fix, an action, or a set of filters to apply to every image..

OK this happens, but what happens, when a difficult image comes up that the set of filters doesn't like.

similar example - watch a digital photographer try to set the white balance of a raw image when there is no highlight in the shot!!!

Pixel, I prefer the 18 years of shooting and knowledge of light experience than color experience. Color Guys are a dime a dozen :devil: (had to say it)

Sorry But your 5 minute desat/Mult layer aint going to Cut it my friend. :confused:
Try duping the Blue channel rather than desat by the way.
I made an action similar to yours that takes literally 5 seconds on the Ol' G5 Dual 2.5 6 gigs of RAM.. :dizzy:
I use it a lot along with several other layers..

:question:
Sn@@k

What was this suppose to mean?
"similar example - watch a digital photographer try to set the white balance of a raw image when there is no highlight in the shot!!!"
RAW there is no white balance? That is determined later at ones taste... :nod:
You lost me on that statement... :depressed
Sn@@k

I do not 'see' it because theres nothing to see, theres nothing special or unique about Dragans images, it is a common technique used by many photographers and retouchers as proved by the MANY people here on this forum able to easily reproduce it and many have given the steps to reproduce but still you insist that no-one else can do it and it is some magical mystical formula that only Dragan knows.
Its just one style of many and as I said earlier, it incorporates the common 'painting with light' technique that there are many tutorials on the web for.
You insist that is cannot be done with anything but photoshop and yet - the man himself admits that it is a modern way of doing what used to be done by hand in a lab.
"... Such manipulation is a modern substitute for the combination of an old-fashioned classical dye-and-brush painting, as well as dark room photographic techniques... Creating new illumination with this kind of retouch is, by the way, also another example of classical ‘painting with light’ techniques used by some photographers."

Snook, we are having quick stabs at this technique on images that were not shot by Dragen.

Compliments in one thread and when I reveal my layer order "It doesn't cut it"

Surely, this effect is just a little bit more effort than we are prepared to spend...

The sample I posted was created with a CMYK image lifted from a pdf...!

Nancy, As you stated, It was done with Painting (maybe airbrushing or even older, real dye tinting) But You will NEVER acheive the look in a LAB. I work with one of the best LAB printers in the US and maybe world for that matter.
They (he) Print(ed) for Helmut Newton,Bruce Weber, Steven Meisel,MArio Testino,craig mcdean,Mario sorentti, etc.. You will never get that look. I agree in tholder days as stated by you they painting (Modern day Dodge&Burning) The pictures to get a similar look.
All the post that you say have explained it have pretty much ended in a dead end. YES there is a lot of helpful information here and there, And that is what is all about. LEARNING.
I am asking for others opinion's here on there method. That is all.
After all this is just a forum to share information.
If you ask a question and someone said. I do not get it and it has been done, why do it. Then we would not have great forums for discussing these topics and learning.
I understand it is not your cup of tea and that is it.. No biggy.
I just think you saying It is normal and everybody does it is a very ignorant
statement IMHO.
Nothing personal.
I guess if someone saw a Ferrari and said I do not get it, It looks like a corvette and every other model car. People might look at you strange.
Maybe they are not a car fan...
And that is my feeling here.
Everyone has there opinion and you have yours.. Great
:wavey:

I guess also that if some one saw your Avatar, and said.. jeez that is old and everyone has done that glamour shot look. You might be surprised. or in your case maybe not...
You have me all confused on how I really feel about you....hahahaha :nod:
Snook

Nancy, As you stated, It was done with Painting (maybe airbrushing or even older, real dye tinting) But You will NEVER acheive the look in a LAB. I work with one of the best LAB printers in the US and maybe world for that matter.

It was not me that said it - that was a quote from ragans website - straight from the horses mouth.

I guess also that if some one saw your Avatar, and said.. jeez that is old and everyone has done that glamour shot look. You might be surprised. or in your case maybe not...
You have me all confused on how I really feel about you....hahahaha :nod:
Snook
If someone took my avatar and started raving about how it was some of the hottest retouching around and how no-one could recreate the effect I would be similarly baffled. Theres nothing special or unique about my avatar, its just as easy to recreate as the 'dragan' effect. But I suppose you wouldnt be satisfied with that either. But as I said, give me a before and after shot and I will recreate it and send you the psd. You still wouldnt be satisfied I assume.

FWIW, my avatar isnt a glamour shot, and I really worry about you if you think blue skin and hair made of silver 'snakes' is a standard 'glamour shot look'.

Snook, your images on your website are rather good,

not to prove or dis-prove any theories as to whether this kind of effect can be achieved, quickly or otherwise, I have spent a good 20 mins on an image you may recognize (hope U don't mind)...

for the record...

I will not be involved in a 'touch-off"

Nancy, Sure take any picture off my site and send me PSD. That would be great. I'll be waiting.
Now a Perfect example of what I am talking about is what Pixel just post. There are thousand of those types of post (no-offense pixel) But they are not quite like the Dragan..This one is way to green, She looks like a martian.
Beside I already gave that shot a "treatment" so treating it more will just make it go too contrasty.
You cannot even get the name right (nancy). You have posted it everytime spelled differently. I think your mind is somewhere else at the moment :nod:
The offer still is there. Take a picture off my site like Pixel did and let's see what you got baby
:cat:
Awaiting your PSD. a long with several 100 others awaiting. :bow:


Sn@@k

Nancy, while I remember - pvt.mes

Ian

sure, the sample is like any other, but maybe you are not shooting in the same way as dragan? - its how this post started, about working on images that need a little push, rather than an overhaul.

I admit the shoot looks a little green - embeded the RGB profile when saved, looks bad in a browser - I loose ten points. LOL

Ian

You do not lose 10 points from me.. Thanks for trying... :nod:
I am not in here to waste my time arguing. I just want to learn.. What a beautiful thing.. Learning. :nod:
Well maybe some others will join in. If Nancy would just post her PSD, I guess we could move on to another technique.

:lmao:
Thanks for the people willing to share.
I have learned a lot thanks to forums like these, That is why I never shun people trying. We all can learn from the mistakes which is fun too.

By the way , I am not looking for any easy way out action. I am way to advanced for that and know all to well that actions work on some pictures and not on a lot more. I would like to see the theory on how to get these types of skin tones and saturation effect. As well as the dodging & burning techniques.
Thanks to this very post I learned another dodging technique that I have never seen on any other forum.
Thank you.
Sn@@k :robot:

Recording of the "creation history" of a selected photo - a set of consecutive intermediate steps from a raw photo to its final version recorded in a set of high quality digital files + exhaustive explanation of the technique details and all the applied tricks + answering all your questions concerning the details of the techniqe 300 EUR / 400 USD.


From dragan's website,

Why not just buy his technique...

With all the hundreds of posts of people wanting to replicate him it would only cost a dollar each if you all chip in...

By the way this post got started out by conrad saying hello. This is in the retoucher classifed section I think.. ;)
He was reaching out and wanted to see what came back. Well a lot so far has come back... :nod:
Thanks conrad... :blush:
Sn@@k

Conrad what a talented chap you are, now tell me how do you make mouse overs work, i tried it once, and gave up LOL!

But amazing website, fun too!

Ella

That is Old... He is traveling now, Maybe he is back now, But I do not think he is still teaching his technique. Beleive me I tried. I had many conversations with him in the past through e-mail. He lives in Poland and I think through e-mails it would be difficult. He was in NY recently and I was going to try and see him but I got a trip to Brazil and could not go to NY. Plus you would need several sessions for sure. I am sure there are people who did work with him, But Like many others they are probably not going to spill there Knowledge easily. :cold:
Also would like to add that his whole concept is what makes "his" images special, not only the Photoshop work. He has a Great idea in his mind and transfers it to print. He Liquifies people eyes limbs etc.. to make that picture some what odd? Kinda of Like this Girl. who also has great color rendition. But makes the Kids a little creepy for some. I think it is Brilliant. And I have two Loving Daughters that I would do anything for. Some people are a little more opened minded then others.
Check out her site..
http://www.lorettalux.de/

Now I would love to get those type of skin tones as well.
Maybe Nancy can come up with that one as well. And I could get a 2 for 1 deal here... :lmao:

Sn@@k

Yes CONRAD you are really talented!! I will double that Idea.
I just saw some more of your stuff. You are maticulis (sp) Like me. I go through pore by pore but try to keep some texture in the skin. You do that very well. Especially seeing the B&Afters helps people to understand the great work you do. And that there is no action for that. Cloning is Cloning , No action available for that... ;)
Nice job.
Sn@@k

Whilst I could take any image from your site and emulate dragans style there would be no point. As I said, provide a before and after of an image that you think perfectly represents the style and I will match it complete with a psd of the workflow and instructions. Most of the images from your site are unsuitable for this type of work anyway - they are shot in a completely different way and are a different style. Whatever I provide for you, you will be unsatisfied and say it is not right, and probably not give a reason for what is wrong.
To take one of your befores and give it the 'Dragan' treatment would be a waste of tiem without an 'after' shot for comparison.
You say you are here to learn, but you're not interested in listening to anything anyone has to say.

Nancy Here is a picture for another thread if you want to try it out..?
Sn@@k :bigthmb:
http://stathol.home.comcast.net/photoshop/StefanJuergens.jpg
Or this one which is even better
http://www.optiknurv.com/hold/try003original.jpg
Give it a whirl Girl
Thanks,
Sn@@k

...again no after shot - so anything that I product will not satisfy you, as you have proven with everyone who as tried to help you. unless you can provide both the before and after to match, you will not be satisfied with anything I or anyone else does. It would be a waste of time.
His style is 'organic' and different for each picture, without something to aim for you can always so it isnt right.
As you have done every time in the past you will say it is close but it is not right.

Hey Gang...

Alright.. Let's try and solve this little dilema.. First, thanks to all for your wonderful words. I try to get here to help out whenever I can. There are so many talented retouchers that I know out there, if only they came by to help out, too.... let's see if I can persuade some of them along :)

Anyway, someone send me a link to an image the like off of Dragan's site and I'll collect my crew together to see how we can achieve it... deal?

-conrad

I am not quite sure what you mean. What after shot? And what Before shot?
There is no-one (pro) doing this work that is going to give me a before shot.. So I am not quite sure where you are going with this.
I am not that bad of a guy... :glasses:
So I might Love it! Do not be Negative.
What exactly do you want. An after shot from one of the sites..There is no way I can get the Before shot for Obviuos reasons.
If you want I can send you a small picture of mine before and after. Which ever one you want. Just tell me where to send it and what size.
I am Honest. So I said Pixel's shot was way to green. But that does not mean he is Bad... :lol:
Just let me know,
I do however have another request for you. Will post it soon, I lost the page soem where...
Did you check out the Loretta luxe page.?
What do you think of her stuff?
Better yet, you have any examples of stuff you like I can check out.
Or Any stuff you do. Could not find you webpage anywhere.
Thanks,
Sn@@k

You liked pixels first attempt until he told you how he did it :p
vaguely looked at that girls site on the way out to work this morning, didnt get a chance to look at it properly.
Just in the process of putting together a gallery from 1 of those images you provided - but as I said, without knowing exactly where you want it to end up its impossible to provide the perfect reproduction that you're looking for.

Cool Conrad, That would be great.
I understand that Nancy might want a Before but for obviuos reason these guys do not post there before. I do know on Dragan site
He does have a before of an Old man (looks like SantaClaus) Smoking a pipe.
But I think it is way to small.

I have notced another thing and not sure if you may agree. He is definetly tricking the backgrounds also. Replacing them or shooting on a tripod then focusing on background and mering them in photoshop. I know he used a 10 or 20d now and there is no way you are going to get that DOF from that camera...;-)
His lighting is also not that special (nice) but not special. Probably one softbox slightly above his subject. Could even be an on camera flash with diffuser.
Thanks Conrad,
Sn@@k :bow:

Nancy--> Here it is
Straight from Dragan's site
The old B&W version:
http://andrzejdragan.com/foto/foto21.jpg
And the Retouched:
http://andrzejdragan.com/foto/foto23.jpg

Thanks,
Now you have the older from him and his retouch. So you can compare it to his directly.
Sn@@k
Photoshop. This is even less exxaggerated than others work but is on the same track.
Other Rap sites are putting a little more sheeen and more saturated color to the color parts, But that I can figure out.... :rainbow:

Thats not an original - its just an older version.

http://hazelryan.co.uk/Site2/forsnook/index.html

Just some roughs that are close to his style - but every single one of his images is slightly different, as will any image that tries to emulate him.

NICE Nancy. I like the link you did..
See I am not that Bad!!! :eek:
You have a psd of those.. I like them all, Especially the yellowy one. Like the skin tones!
Great. :classic:
Sn@@k

http://hazelryan.co.uk/Site2/forsnook/forsnook.psd - warning its 8mb

As I said, they're roughs, if I was the photographer or had a specific mood in mind I would spend much longer on a single image. If there is something you think could be improved to be more like how you want then let me know the number and what you want and I could refine it.

Hey Nancy, THANKS.
I am downloading now and will let you know.
Thanks for your effort and No hard Feelings :bigthmb:
Did you see Loretta Luxe's site? You have any ideas How I can get similar skin tones?
I am going off to work in a little bit and will try and post an example for you.
I want to try and get those skin tones that are when you take the red/yellow out of the skin tones. I have tried but they get a little patchy the skin.
Hard to describe with out an example, So I'll search.
Thanks a lot for your time. I DO appreciate it!
Sn@@k
You have a site of your stuff you do I can check out.
Thanks again,
Sn@@k
Also 8mb is nothing, I downloaded it in less than a minute

Nancy, A couple of questions..
The Blue (s curve) was that an s curve run on the blue channel through the channels layer?
Also can you sharpen while in the Blue channel in the Channels palette, The copy and past that into a new layer?
I thought of 2 things also.
I think he (as his example) is making the images B&W and then painting in the color after wards. Could this be. Also if you notice on the old man with the pipe picture. The skin of the old man becomes more blotchy ( showing more of his defects in the skin) Which probably won't be attractive for models :lol: But I like the Pinkish magenta skin tone he applied.
Also Someone in another forum said that by using the Eye dropper they discovered he has all kinds of "slight" colors even in his shadows. Ever so slight cyan's etc.. How would that be acheived.
If you have time to maybe figure that out.

But if not I appreciate your help and would rather pick your brain for the Loretta luxe skintones.
I am trying to get skin tones to look "white" if that makes sense. Not black and white but white.
I saw a couple of advertisements (cannot find the dang picture) that the girls was wearing a blue jeans top and bottom and she had Like Platinum colored hair (white) and her skintones were the same, Kind of White. Not grey like B&W would produce, But white!!
Sorry I am rambling maybe, And will post you a picture.
THANK YOU
Sn@@k

I looked at her site quickly but I'm supposed to be busy right now ;) quite a few of the pictures look to have been desaturated and recoloured. Particularly the ones that look like 1940s/1950s clothes. TBH a fair few of them look like they're head transplants but on such small images its hard to be sure.
i will try to find a picture of a child work on

Great, Yeh get back to work before you get in trouble!! :tongue:
I'll post later some references...
Thanks again, and sorry for conflicts before!
:pirate:
Sn@@k

Nancy, A couple of questions..
The Blue (s curve) was that an s curve run on the blue channel through the channels layer?
Also can you sharpen while in the Blue channel in the Channels palette, The copy and past that into a new layer?
I thought of 2 things also.
I think he (as his example) is making the images B&W and then painting in the color after wards. Could this be. Also if you notice on the old man with the pipe picture. The skin of the old man becomes more blotchy ( showing more of his defects in the skin) Which probably won't be attractive for models :lol: But I like the Pinkish magenta skin tone he applied.
Also Someone in another forum said that by using the Eye dropper they discovered he has all kinds of "slight" colors even in his shadows. Ever so slight cyan's etc.. How would that be acheived.
If you have time to maybe figure that out.

But if not I appreciate your help and would rather pick your brain for the Loretta luxe skintones.
I am trying to get skin tones to look "white" if that makes sense. Not black and white but white.
I saw a couple of advertisements (cannot find the dang picture) that the girls was wearing a blue jeans top and bottom and she had Like Platinum colored hair (white) and her skintones were the same, Kind of White. Not grey like B&W would produce, But white!!
Sorry I am rambling maybe, And will post you a picture.
THANK YOU
Sn@@k
the s curve blue layer is a copy of the blue channel pasted into a new layer and then modified with an s curve. I use the blue channel rather than a desat because its more 'gritty' and empasises imperfections more strongly - which is the style.
One of the reasons for the skin becoming more blotchy on the b&w to colour is that the b&w is not the original, its an older version of the same photograph, the b&w is more retouched, the skin has been smoothed and the wrinkles softened in places - either deliberately or incidentally due to the choice of lighting.
Colour balancing in photoshop allows you to alter the tonality of shadows/midtones and highlights seperately. You can also use selective masking to 'paint' in tones where you want them.

I'll have a go at the pale girl thing when i get home from work (in a couple of hours)

OK thanks, Have a great day.
Here is another example of skintones and over all tonality of a picture. Not quite the pale gal and I know she had whiteish make-up here but this too is interesting.
http://www.jedroot.com/makeup/ag/full/art/ag-05-01.jpg
Thanks again and we'll chat later! :nod:
Sn@@k

Is this the sort of thing you're looking for? shes a little rough around the edges (literally) but its just a quicky. The pose is wrong for the style - not quite surreal enough ;)

Yes very Nice.. Is there a way to take a little more blue out of the skin.
I like it alot, Just has a kind of blue tone. But I guess I could mask out where I do not want that .. Just leave the skin tones that color.
How did you do it?
Thanks alot,
Snook :thumbsup:

Ran USM
Converted the image to CYMK
Floored the Y & M Curves and adjusted to taste
Duplicated layer and ran similar adjustments on the hair colour - then masked the two together.

The for the second image ran a replace colour on the red shirt - masked out any alterations to the skin and lips.
stuck in a random clouds background

its really all jsut about playing with the curves to get the desired tonality.

Sorry to bump an old and possibly redundant thread:

As for the trade secrets... I'm sure Chris(being Italian like myself) will agree that we COULD share more, but then we'd have to kill you....
-Don Corrado(conrad)

I guess that's why people have so many questions regarding skin retouching. Where exactly does one learn to retouch by proper 'industry standards' (ie. not blurring the skin, or destroying pixels by utilising heal/patch tools, etc) ?? if no-one wants to share techniques because they feel that their work may become redundant due to shared knowledge? Having said that, I do understand the trepidation with sharing detailed knowledge, and it is a breath of fresh air that you have already shared a small amount of your knowledge/technique... much more than most would bother sharing :)

You say that if one was to use blurring in their retouching, they have little or no hope of being employed by a retouching agency. That I can understand, but since there seems to be little in the way of readily available books, tutorials, teachers or courses for 'proper' skin retouching, learning "on the job" or from someone already employed as a hi-end retoucher seems to be the only way to train one's self!

... and since everyone was talking about Dragan, instead of trying to duplicate what he and many others have done I decided to take the obvious techniques, combine them with my own techniques and workflow and produce my own finish:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~craighilton/author1.jpg

On a side note, I must say that I'm beginning to feel like the bastard step child of the photography world.. I constantly see credits going out to stylists, hair, makeup and often times their assistants, but NEVER do you see credits to the retoucher. The retoucher NEVER gets the credit with the image rocks and is the first person to get shot when the image looks like crap(even when the original looked even worse). There are awards given out for exceptional design, for exceptional photography and the likes... However, we find ourselves sittingin dark rooms... making everyone from the model, to the photographer to the product itself look amazing and noone seems to know we exist...It's like we're little elves hiding in trees... Maybe I should start an association to address this issue. It seems to me that a photographer can take a really average picture, give it to me and have look like a totally different picture. YET.. He/She gets usage rights on an image that he/she only contributed 50% to. It's not right and we should really consider this issue.

Just some thinking out loud... Hope this either inspired some or angered a few enough to think.... Or try harder..

Out...

-conrad


Well, Conrad, I Know that you posted this a long time ago, and have since moved west, I presume, but I must respond to this concern of yours, because it is something I have observed in my career for many, many moons. Maybe I can start a debate anew.

I've thought about this a lot, and the ultimate solution is to just become a photographer. Rise up, photoshop slaves, this ain't too hard. Buy a camera, buy some lights, and just shoot. Mahurin does it, doesn't even have his own site, and is in control of his imagery. Loretta Lux may not be a commercial photog., but this is her "job", (unless her trust fund is ripe), and she does it all, I think, and does it well. How is it that we are so consumed by the buffunery of "working" photogs at the mediocre level who think the Porsche and trophy wife is given, (or maybe just a Miata and hot girlfiend), and we are at the controls of a fine image. We make it work. Not getting any respect? Stop whining. Or, if you feel you don't have the proper social skills to shoot and deal with creative directors, get tight with a photographer or two or three who does. Or find an employer who will work with you ( making you almost a salesman ) to do your best.

That's my plan.

Benny,

I couldn't agree with you more.

In fact, I just took delivery of my first pro studio lighting kit.

SK

Well kids.. I wish ya luck. I spent 12yrs gettign to where I am in the retouching industry and it's pretty niave to think that by picking up a camera one can immediately become Patrick Demarchelier and change the world. But what do I know.. knock yourselves out. It was just a thought.... a rant. I wasn't expecting anyone to solve my problems for me..

good luck

Hey, don't go away. Think of what's happening here with two maturing technologies - Photoshop on affordable small computers, and the internet. Kinda nullifys the last 12 years. Think of the next 12 years. We have people popping in here saying "Hi, I'm Zagbar from Iran, or India. I can do that for cheap and good!" Don't laugh at that stuff. That, like it or not, is the future. Even for the high end. Coffee table books and calenders and annual reports and catlogs are being produced 100% in India and China. And they look real good.
Mr. Denarchelier is pretty much old school, and has to adapt like everyone else, if his restaraunt business doesn't get in the way. Or maybe not, if the money keeps flowing into his bucket. But that isn't here or there for us little people. Too much time at stupid parties, too little time doing photography. Can't think about it. Just do it. Life is too short to be a chump.

Y'know Heyrad, you’re quite right: I'm not suggesting for one minute that as soon as I pick up the camera I'll be producing staggering images of heartbreaking genius; and neither am I predicting instant commercial success and the critical adulation of a glittering, high-brow, worldwide audience. But that’s not really what I’m looking for.

In my 'real-world' job as an artistic director, I work very closely with photographers, lighting technicians, models, hair & makeup artists, etc. I know exactly what they do, how they work (geez - I'm the one who's creative vision constitutes our joint objective), and I'm the one who needs to know and understand the terminology and paradigm of their world in order to achieve the desired results in time, under budget and with everyone still remaining friends at the end of the day.

Ultimately - even without 'official' training - my knowledge of photography is sufficient to afford me the confidence to at least try it myself, and that's exactly what I intend to do.

In addition, in my other 'not-so-real-world' job as founder & creative director of an online magazine, my inbox is bombarded with submissions from artists all over the world, many of them photographers, many of them working in commercial fashion and beauty. Mostly their work is very good, sometimes exceptional, but sometimes it is truly awful. And when I look at a dodgy photographer’s dodgy portfolio (and then look at the list of his/her clients) it does two things:

1) Freaks me out that such a bad photographer could make such a good living.

2) Strengthens my resolve.

Anyway, I know that by picking up a camera I’m not going to suddenly metamorphose into the next Demarchelier, Lachapelle, Newton or Aldridge, or any of those artists right at the very pinnacle of the industry. BUT… I do know that I can compete with the bulk of the industry AND, perhaps more importantly, achieve that final and total level of control over my images (plus a full credit and usage rights).

Incidentally, it is becoming more common for retouchers (or retouching studios) to get a credit. Often though, it will be listed as “printing” or “post production” (because we all know that ‘retouching’ is a dirty word in the world of fashion publishing). Even more relevant to your previous post, Rankin (famous British bad-boy photographer & publisher) actually created a retouching studio and called it (wait-for-it) “The Shoemakers Elves”.

Anyway, I guess when you get to the level of Pascal Dangin, the credit pales into insignificance next to the obscene amounts of money he gets paid to work his ‘magic’.

I hear ya Steve... My only problem with the "if you don't like it, do it yourself" concept is that I'm very close friends with come amazing photographers who are having troulbe finding the great jobs. Their books are filled with editorial pages that they lost money on in hopes of getting that much covetted ad job. Hundreds of hours shooting for pennies, making their call cards, building their books and begging reps to manage their careers. Sometimes I think it would be easier to get in Cameron's next film than to be a successful advertising photographer these days. Hell, getting those same ad jobs for retouching can be just as difficult with all the amateurs out there with an iMac and an old version of Photoshop who think that slamming a woman's skin with the Gaussian blur filter is retouching and charging a tenth of what they should charge... My dear friend who shoots for a big hair care company charges a tenth of what he should charge because he, as a photographer, doesn't know the retouching business. He DOES, however, know how to retouch, so he does all the retouching himself and thinks he's making money when he's losing about $8000/image. It's just crazy out there is where I'm going with this... Pascal's got his wonderful little universe in his square, black building over on 14th street and he turns away work because it's "beneath" him... Good for him. I also know that he's in the process of trying to change the industry standards for usage by demanding rights on all of his images. And rightly so, too. In all fairness, the laws of copyright should extend to anyone manipulating an image beyond that images regular scope. But this board is not for that topic. That topic was brought up months ago on a silly rant and it managed to get about 150 threads here... Quite funny, actually.

I usually come here to discuss work and I've been fortunate enough to meet a few really great photographers and art directors who have used my services.. So all is well in the world. I moved out to LA recently and I'm enjoying the fact that I can drive my BMW down to the beach in February... That I can see the sky without the obstruction of so many high rises and have someone at the local convenience store greet me with a smile instead of a "tude". 40yrs in NYC is enough for me for a little while :) I'm sure I'll be back before too long(lol)

Now go, and work and be great at what you do and thank those who work for you and pay them well for their efforts... If that's what everyone did in this industry, the past 100 threads would not have even materialized...

-Conrad
http://conraddigital.com

hello conrad, i would like to see your before/after pictures but your website seems to forbid that. why is that? showing the result, but not the startingpoint is only half that interesting :knockedou

see you
:wavey:

Yes, it is... but the content on my site consists of very high profile celebs and models shot by very high profile photographers who don't want me displaying their raw images to the world. Cappiche? I only provide those images to my clients as I have milliions of wanna be retouchers pilferring my work and displaying it on a mulititude of websites... very NOT cool! Gotta take my precautions...

Sorry

conrad

OK, here's a clear cut example of what Conrad is complaining about. Well maybe not too clear, because I'm not aware of how this retouching is done - by the photographer himself, a staff retoucher, or a freelance retoucher hired by him, or a retoucher working with the agency.

This link : http://www.calumetphoto.com/grubman

No where in this promo like interview is retouching or manipulation mentioned, when it's obvious that some cute stuff has been done. And I suspect he din't do it, because, if he did, he would have at least nodded toward the many hours he spends staring at a screen. There's even talk of personal work shot on film, his work/family balance problems, but the word photoshop isn't uttered. And that cute Viper portrait wouldn't exist without it. So this guy is getting all this free publicity off the back of the retouching.
It's like the cinematographer getting all the credit for The Godfather or Raging Bull.
I'm not sure how this can be fixed, but market forces will determine the outcome. This isn't anything new, and, hell, some "serious" artists these days pride themselves in slapping their name on a craftman's work, like Jeff Koons. But they at least came up with the concept. I doubt Mr. Grubman thought up those images all on his own.

Hey!

I've seen some people referring to Dragan on this thread.

I came across some actions trying to replicate his style, I don't remember where though so I credit the guy who did them.

I've tried them to see how they worked but never really used them.

Maybe this will help someone.

( Mod's please remove if it's not alright to upload this)

I have no experience or interest, at the moment, for high end retouching, but the comments within this thread I found very interesting. It made me wonder: how many photographers are retouchers and how many retouchers are photographers. My girl friend had the August 2006 issue of Glamour and there is a spead of photo's by Robert Erdmann. I wonder what required more time/work: the shooting of the pics or the retouching of the photos. I noticed the skin texture in the shots as often discussed in RetouchPro. I also thought the lights in the eyes had a nice touch and wondered if "retouchers" have their own signature for certain effects? Based on what I see in this spread, I would think the retoucher significantly contributed to the quality of the photo...but then again, maybe Mr. Erdmann did it all.

Lastly, no one really helped Snook on the how's of the "Dragan". I too cannot believe that there are those who "can't see what Snook is referring to. This effect, used by many mentioned in this thread, is often discussed in many photography forums, but I have only seen one thread that provides a method of achieving this look. Any additional guidance would be appreciated by myself and I'm certain Snook.

One point...the method provided really didn't provide the look!

dog,

what "method" are you referring to? Maybe you haven't found the new "make awesome pic instantly"-button in the draganizer actions? ;)

Patrick...not looking for an "instant button"...I want to understand the method taken (steps) to get the "look". From there one can expand one's understanding in other directions.

My girl friend had the August 2006 issue of Glamour and there is a spead of photo's by Robert Erdmann. I wonder what required more time/work: the shooting of the pics or the retouching of the photos. I noticed the skin texture in the shots as often discussed in RetouchPro. I also thought the lights in the eyes had a nice touch and wondered if "retouchers" have their own signature for certain effects? Based on what I see in this spread, I would think the retoucher significantly contributed to the quality of the photo...but then again, maybe Mr. Erdmann did it all.

Actually, I've had the pleasure of working with Robert Erdmann on many stories in the past. The last story I did for him was shot in Spain at the fancy new modern hotel. He has also been known to so elaborate shoots in far off places like Fiji. So the shooting did take a great deal of time to produce, but the retouching/finishing is where the shots were probably made. He's a dedicated shooter and never retouches his own work. Sometimes the photos need very little, but often times, they need a great deal... depends on the images, the art director, the weather and the alignment of the moon and stars :)

conrad

Patrick...not looking for an "instant button"...I want to understand the method taken (steps) to get the "look". From there one can expand one's understanding in other directions.

Don't consider my words as a rant, neither am I laughing about you or something. It was more of a little hint where to go ;)

Another example: There are hundreds of tutorials out there asking for a technique to get smooth skin. Gaussian Blur, Surface Blur, Median, High-Pass Filters, Diffuse Glow and so on and so on. And because this skin might look too flat because it just blows away every detail people add adjustment layers, overlays, noise, bevel and emboss and so on and so on and so on.

Does the result look like a magazine cover? No.

You want to know the pro's technique to get smooth skin? I tell you: Patience. Grab your pen and painstakely remove every little tiny blemish manually, edit each and every pixel. There is no "woomp there it is"-adjustment layer, no "make it perfect"-filter, just manual work. Sounds too cumbersome for a million pixels to edit? Well do this with a 12-million hi-res file and we can talk...

And that's what's the deal: It's not some default filter or something to make it look as it looks, it's painstakely doing everything yourself, finding the right settings, painting shadows manually, etc. Unless someone find's that filter or button you can't say "this technique don't work" because it doesn't matter what kind of tool you use, the artwork is all up to you!

;)

P.

Heyrad,

Based on your last note and all the previous ones, I agree, the Retoucher should be recognized, since they do much of the work and creating. One of the comments in this thread was that why worry about the credit..you get a pay check...well so does the photographer...he doesn't do it free and on top of that he/she gets all the credit. As Patrick mentioned, you may have worked thousands of hours to get to where you are!

Patrick...thanks for the guidance ...I think. You've made it quite clear in many of your previous posts that once one is worthy you are willing to talk. Trust me...I do practice. Thanks again...sky

@Snook
Nancy cant see it cause she isent a fan of this style.
I know what you mean and i read 100 discussions about that... and nobody know how does it work.
Just a few know a part of this style.
I hope one day a pro retoucher will beat this secret:-)))))))))))

lg Calvin

how come i cant see the before images