Hello everyone again!

Thanks once more for valuable comments on our plugin (GML GrowCut). We have prepared a new version (1.1) that actually has 4 plugins included:

1. GML GrowCut (selection plugin for Photoshop, just like it was)
2. GML GrowCut Extract (selection plugin for Photoshop, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)
3. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, that produces binary mask instead of selection) - aimed for Paint Shop Pro users to create masks
4. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, same as above, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)

They can be downloaded from our new Web-site (we are migrating to it):
http://research.graphicon.ru/growcut/gml-growcut.html

Please give it a try, we're waiting for you reaction :) We tried to consider most user requests in this new version.

Hi Dead Moroz

I could install the new version beside the old one; that's good because I prefer the old interface. However I tried to install both the extract and mask versions, but only the one I installed first (extract) shows up in the menu.

This new interface is worse than the first in my opinion. We must now enclose and fill the area. The tool requires a lot more input and does not give better results.

I would prefer a bug fix of the old interface with improved keyboard shortcuts like ctrl-z for undo, mouse wheel for zoom and a toggle between draw and erase. I would also like a way to select many small areas (like hair with background showing through) and for semi-transparent selections.

Pierre

New version includes BOTH interfaces - "old" and "new". One is called "GrowCut" in Photoshop menu, the second "GrowCut Extract".

So you should be able to use both interfaces if you uninstall 1.0 and install 1.1 over it.

dead_moroz,

thank you for including us poor Paint Shop Pro folk! :)

i'm using corel's Paint Shop Pro 10. i installed both downloads and ran the setups and they both installed ok as far as i can tell. they both show up under 'effects' in psp 10, which is where they're supposed to. so, ok; good so far.

i ran both plugins and they both seem to do the same thing. the grow cut mask produces a black and white mask of the segmented part, but grow cut extract does exactly the same thing. i thought the extract would actually extract the image. so, what's the difference here? is it just an interface difference and both are supposed to produce just the masks or is one supposed to actually extract the image to a new layer or something like that?

now, i can simply put a copy of the unmasked image under the masked one and use a blend mode to show the image i want extracted. that's fine. i think maybe i misunderstood what these were supposed to do, but i think i understand now. remember, i wasnt able to test the earlier version because it wouldnt work in Paint Shop Pro. so, these two are the two interfaces you were talking about and they both do do the same thing. it's just an interface, how you get there, thing as to why there are two plugins. so, ok, if that's the case, then this is working fine.

and, i'm impressed. this is pretty slick (cool, good, great, neat, fine). i also now understand why you call it 'grow cut'. :)

i will play with this some more and get a little better at it before giving you my impressions.

but again, thank you for making this available to us Paint Shop Pro folks!

Craig

dead_moroz,
thank you for including us poor Paint Shop Pro folk! :)

:)

i ran both plugins and they both seem to do the same thing. the grow cut mask produces a black and white mask of the segmented part, but grow cut extract does exactly the same thing. i thought the extract would actually extract the image. so, what's the difference here? is it just an interface difference and both are supposed to produce just the masks or is one supposed to actually extract the image to a new layer or something like that?

You're right - the only difference is the GUI (so far). It is just the same as Photoshops "Extract" thingy in "GrowCut Extract" version.

and, i'm impressed. this is pretty slick (cool, good, great, neat, fine). i also now understand why you call it 'grow cut'. :)

Thanks :) I hope it'll be useful to you and others.

i will play with this some more and get a little better at it before giving you my impressions.

All right, please do!

but again, thank you for making this available to us Paint Shop Pro folks!

By the way, its up to "Paint Shop Pro folks" to suggest us whether there is a more convinient way to create masks from images. Because what we do now - is just replace the image with binary mask. Maybe you can suggest some way that is more comfortable to the user?

Hi Dead Moroz
I would prefer a bug fix of the old interface with improved keyboard shortcuts like ctrl-z for undo, mouse wheel for zoom and a toggle between draw and erase. I would also like a way to select many small areas (like hair with background showing through) and for semi-transparent selections.
Pierre
Actually we've done some bug fix of the "old" interface in GML GrowCut 1.1 and added several requests from people here (like pan with space). Maybe you know some bugs that we don't?

Regarding the 'undo' - what actions would you like to have oppotunity to undo in the first place?

We'll put your other requests (mouse wheel, toggle draw/erase) in our pending feature requests list. BTW - how would you like to toggle draw/erase? By some keyboard key?

Regarding hair, background showing through and semi-transparent selections - this needs algorithm modification and further research... It will take time, we are already thinking about it.

dead_moroz,

well, what i originally thought your product was, was an extraction tool, one that would actually select an object and then extract it as a new image to a new layer. so, at first, when using it, i thought either i was doing something wrong or that the product was buggy in Paint Shop Pro. i see now that's not the case.

i'm also not sure it's working right in Paint Shop Pro 10. the reason i say this is that what i get is a black and white image from the original, as if it were a mask, but it doesnt act like a mask. it acts like a black and white image with no mask. the white is in the shape of the area selected, but it seems to be just a regular white image area and not a mask area.

now, that does make it easier to select this new black and white image and make a mask from it with the magic wand or by simply making a copy of the original and putting it under the black and white and then using a blend mode, but it really doesnt seem to be a mask.

am i reading this right? was this how it was intended? and would it be possible to, when you've got the object selected in grow cut, to simply pull it directly as a new image or as a new image on a new layer and not even bother with making a mask if desired as an option?

Craig

Craig

I'm using Paint Shop Pro 9 and my findings and thoughts are basically the same as Craig's above. In my opinion it would be far more useful to have the result extracted as a new image or on a new layer of the original image it was obtained from rather than converting it to a binary black and white image, that then has to be turned into a mask.

I don't want to sound unappreciative, thanks for thinking about the PSPers but unless I am missing something, this seems to add a lot of unnecessary steps to extracting a selection from an image. And I may be missing the point of the whole thing, I am prone to do that at times! :) At present I fail to see any advantage over using the smart edge or edge finder settings in the freehand selection tool of Paint Shop Pro to directly select the part of an image I want to extract.

However I can see a great use for this in creating a silhouette identification image for group portraits and such.

Hi Dead Moroz

I downloaded
GrowCutMaskSetup1_1.exe
GrowCutSetup1_1.exe

And ran the install OK

First thoughts

1. GrowCut Extract
Very Similar to Photoshop Extract
Very Nice. But as Pierre mentioned, you now have to paint right round the area
Full screen is better. The image is bigger
The ‘With Smoothing’ – I can’t get this button to work?

It does work better than Photoshop Extract and the extracted area comes back as a selection, which I prefer to Photoshop Extract.


2. GrowCut
Step 3 Refine Border Still seems to only work once
I still prefer this version (ie. The way it works) but I would like to see this full screen as GrowCut Extract
After using this several times I am wondering if three steps are necessary. Step 1 seems a little unnecessary and steps 2 and 3 could perhaps be combined into one screen.

I’m not sure which direction you are trying to go in here. You have developed two very similar programs with two different interfaces, and two different methods of making the selection. Perhaps if the two programs were merged into one product. Use a screen similar to Growcut Extract but with the selection method of Growcut.
Or perhaps a checkbox to swap between the two different extract methods.


3. GrowCut Mask Extract
Working OK – I will try to think of some uses for this.

4. GrowCut Mask
Same problem as GrowCut. ie the refine border only works once.




Craig and Garazon. Paint Shop Pro version.
In the Photoshop version there are FOUR programs

1. GML GrowCut (selection plugin for Photoshop, just like it was)
2. GML GrowCut Extract (selection plugin for Photoshop, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)
3. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, that produces binary mask instead of selection) - aimed for Paint Shop Pro users to create masks
4. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, same as above, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)

It seems that in the Paint Shop Pro version you only have the masks (3 and 4). These work in Photoshop as you describe. Can you not copy and paste this into a layer mask?



Ken

Hi Ken,

In the Photoshop version there are FOUR programs

1. GML GrowCut (selection plugin for Photoshop, just like it was)
2. GML GrowCut Extract (selection plugin for Photoshop, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)
3. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, that produces binary mask instead of selection) - aimed for Paint Shop Pro users to create masks
4. GML GrowCut Mask (a FILTERING plugin, same as above, with interface similar to Photoshop 'extract' operation)

It seems that in the Paint Shop Pro version you only have the masks (3 and 4). These work in Photoshop as you describe. Can you not copy and paste this into a layer mask?


Yes it's easy enough to convert the image produced to mask layer.
It's just that in my opinion to have to go through all these extra steps just increases the workload simply to extract a selection from an image.
I don't have Photoshop but in Paint Shop Pro if you open an image, run the script, it converts the original image itself to a balck/white image. Then you have to open the image again paste it as another layer,etc. It should be possible to extract the black/white image to an additional layer instead of converting the original to b/w.
Of course if you duplicate the original and run the script on the copied layer, that solves that problem.

Basically, although I like the interface and the way it works(once some modifications are fixed, like the refine border working a little better), but using this as an extraction tool in Paint Shop Pro just isn't practical, at least for my purposes.
However I do applaud the efforts made to make what looks like a great plugin available to those of us who use Paint Shop Pro :bigthmb:

Hi Garazon.

In Photoshop Grow Cut Masks works on a layer. So if you dupe your layer then run GrowCut Mask on the top layer it should save you from having to open the picture again.
Just a thought. Should make it a little quicker to use.
I don’t know if this will work in Paint Shop Pro.

Photoshop.
Great job on your ‘Finishing Touch’ picture.


Ken

Actually we've done some bug fix of the "old" interface in GML GrowCut 1.1 and added several requests from people here (like pan with space). Maybe you know some bugs that we don't? I will do as you suggested in another post: I will uninstall the version I had before installing the new one.

Regarding the 'undo' - what actions would you like to have oppotunity to undo in the first place?I would like to be able to undo the latest action I made; for instance, undo the latest stroke instead of having to erase it. Multiple undos with ctrl-alt-z would be even nicer.

We'll put your other requests (mouse wheel, toggle draw/erase) in our pending feature requests list. BTW - how would you like to toggle draw/erase? By some keyboard key?Drawing while pressing the alt key would be in the spirit of Photoshop conventions.

If an erase toggle or an undo are too difficult, maybe the possibility of different sizes for the pen and eraser would be easier. I always select a wider eraser than the stroke I'm trying to erase.

Pierre

dead_moroz,
am i reading this right? was this how it was intended? and would it be possible to, when you've got the object selected in grow cut, to simply pull it directly as a new image or as a new image on a new layer and not even bother with making a mask if desired as an option?
Craig
Moving the selected object of the mask to a new layer is good idea indeed, that should save pretty much time for the user. We should investigate how this can be done through the part of Photoshop API supported in Paint Shop Pro.

However, I still think it's better to make a mask than cutting out the selected object, because Paint Shop Pro can make a selection from it, or the user can edit this mask (invert, smooth, etc.) to get the exact selection he wants. What do you think?

I'm using Paint Shop Pro 9 and my findings and thoughts are basically the same as Craig's above. In my opinion it would be far more useful to have the result extracted as a new image or on a new layer of the original image it was obtained from rather than converting it to a binary black and white image, that then has to be turned into a mask.
Yes, as I already said - this sounds logical


I don't want to sound unappreciative, thanks for thinking about the PSPers but unless I am missing something, this seems to add a lot of unnecessary steps to extracting a selection from an image. And I may be missing the point of the whole thing, I am prone to do that at times! :) At present I fail to see any advantage over using the smart edge or edge finder settings in the freehand selection tool of Paint Shop Pro to directly select the part of an image I want to extract.

Well, it's up to you to decide - whether GrowCut is useful or not :) In my experience I usually spend less efforts using GrowCut instead of magnetic lasso in Photoshop or smart edge in Paint Shop Pro (not always, of course, but in most cases).

Hi Dead Moroz

I downloaded
GrowCutMaskSetup1_1.exe
GrowCutSetup1_1.exe

And ran the install OK

First thoughts

1. GrowCut Extract
Very Similar to Photoshop Extract
Very Nice. But as Pierre mentioned, you now have to paint right round the area
Full screen is better. The image is bigger
The ‘With Smoothing’ – I can’t get this button to work?

It does work better than Photoshop Extract and the extracted area comes back as a selection, which I prefer to Photoshop Extract.

Thanks for the comments :) What's the problem with "With smoothing" button?

It just changes the computation of the new strokes after it is checked/unchecked. You can see the difference if you change the it's state and press "Segment" one more time - the smothness of the border will be different.


2. GrowCut
Step 3 Refine Border Still seems to only work once
I still prefer this version (ie. The way it works) but I would like to see this full screen as GrowCut Extract
After using this several times I am wondering if three steps are necessary. Step 1 seems a little unnecessary and steps 2 and 3 could perhaps be combined into one screen.

I personally prefer this variant too :) "Refine borders" does really work only once - that's how the algorithm is designed. First - a coarse segmentation is performed, and then fine borders are estimated.

The first step is useful for performance reasons - to speed up the work and lessen memory consumption if segmenting rather small objects in big images.


I’m not sure which direction you are trying to go in here. You have developed two very similar programs with two different interfaces, and two different methods of making the selection. Perhaps if the two programs were merged into one product. Use a screen similar to Growcut Extract but with the selection method of Growcut.
Or perhaps a checkbox to swap between the two different extract methods.

Right now it's just and experiment to find out the pros and cons of both variants...


3. GrowCut Mask Extract
Working OK – I will try to think of some uses for this.
4. GrowCut Mask
Same problem as GrowCut. ie the refine border only works once.

These two plugins are aimed for the editors that support .8bf plugins and do not support .8bs (like Paint Shop Pro). I'm not sure they are useful for Photoshop users.

I would like to be able to undo the latest action I made; for instance, undo the latest stroke instead of having to erase it. Multiple undos with ctrl-alt-z would be even nicer.

Drawing while pressing the alt key would be in the spirit of Photoshop conventions.

If an erase toggle or an undo are too difficult, maybe the possibility of different sizes for the pen and eraser would be easier. I always select a wider eraser than the stroke I'm trying to erase.
Pierre
I see. Erasing with 'alt' is easy. Undo is somewhat trickier... It will almost double the amount of memory used by the plugin. Have anyone encountered memory problems with GrowCut? What size of pictures do you usuall 'feed' to it?

Moving the selected object of the mask to a new layer is good idea indeed, that should save pretty much time for the user. We should investigate how this can be done through the part of Photoshop API supported in Paint Shop Pro.

However, I still think it's better to make a mask than cutting out the selected object, because Paint Shop Pro can make a selection from it, or the user can edit this mask (invert, smooth, etc.) to get the exact selection he wants. What do you think?
moroz (i'm purposely leaving out the 'dead' :) ),

well, when i first tried out growcut i was expecting it as the final stage to simply extract the image to a new layer. it did an excellent job of selecting what i wanted selected and i just figured this was an extraction tool and that i would get my extraction as the final step. so, ok, that wasnt the case. and, like you say, it isnt that difficult to make an extraction from the mask. so, again, ok.

i think what would be ideal would be to have the option, after you've done all the preliminary work of lining up the selection, of either making the mask on that layer, making the mask to a new layer or making an extraction to a new layer. THAT would be ideal.

now, i've NO idea what this would involve as far as programming and coding and i, like others, dont want to seem critical and ungrateful for what is truly an amazing FREE program. so, to that end, thank you! i'm also aware that your main target audience here is for Photoshop users and quite probably rightfully so. so, again, thanks for including us Paint Shop Pro users here!

i also dont know if you have access to Paint Shop Pro 7, 8, 9, or 10, so maybe an explanation of what psp does and has as far as selection abilities might help here. i'm sure you know we have 'magic wand' and 'freehand, point to point, and true freehand' and also the normal boxed selection. but, one thing psp has that maybe Photoshop doesnt have (dont know) is we can paint a mask with the normal paint tools, including paint brush, airbrush, smudge, push and so on and all at varying opacities and densities, just like a normal image painting. but, the really nice thing is we can convert that mask instantly to a selection and then do everything you can do with a normal selection. and when done, we can, if we wish, switch this back to a mask again. it's a VERY handy feature in psp 10 (and i think 9).

so, what i'm sort of looking at here as an idea is some combination of the above Paint Shop Pro features combined with your 'growing/eating' selection process in growcut. not quite exactly sure what at this point, but i just know there's something there that could be done.

also, the last time i used growcut i was thinking that there shld be some modifiers that the user could select to modify the way the 'eating' routine selects pixels. something like 'strong', 'medium', 'soft', 'by color', much the same way you can modify the magic wand tool. now, i know you do have some of this in your 'hard', 'soft', and 'border' buttons. i was just thinking that there could be more.

also, the 'refine borders' could still use some work. i'm still ending up with jagged borders at times that i then have to use the 'soft' tool on to try to even out.

now, just so you know, i dont think it's all bad. i love the way the algorithm eats or un-eats pixels and it does this generally very intelligently. i mostly like the 'refine borders' too. and, so far, i prefer the 'growing' program more than the 'green outline' program. i just love seeing it eat the correct pixels and even when it doesnt pick out the right ones, i love the way you can get it to eat more. very slick!

oh, and one last comment. the 'soft' tool often doesnt want to do anything even with repeated attempts to make it do so. i often have to come at it from different directions or slightly different areas to get it to get what i want. i would suggest a pure 'eat this pixel' tool for those difficult areas that i know would be correct, but that the smart routine just cant quite say are ok. this would be like an override tool that unconditionally would eat X number of pixels that you clicked on. it might have to be just a one pixel tool to work right, but that would be ok.

so, again, thank you. i think you've got the makings of an excellent tool here. are you planning to eventually make this a commercial product?

Craig

moroz (i'm purposely leaving out the 'dead' :) ),
i think what would be ideal would be to have the option, after you've done all the preliminary work of lining up the selection, of either making the mask on that layer, making the mask to a new layer or making an extraction to a new layer. THAT would be ideal.

Yes, we have already put this in our future feature list.

i also dont know if you have access to Paint Shop Pro 7, 8, 9, or 10, so maybe an explanation of what psp does and has as far as selection abilities might help here. i'm sure you know we have 'magic wand' and 'freehand, point to point, and true freehand' and also the normal boxed selection. but, one thing psp has that maybe Photoshop doesnt have (dont know) is we can paint a mask with the normal paint tools, including paint brush, airbrush, smudge, push and so on and all at varying opacities and densities, just like a normal image painting. but, the really nice thing is we can convert that mask instantly to a selection and then do everything you can do with a normal selection. and when done, we can, if we wish, switch this back to a mask again. it's a VERY handy feature in psp 10 (and i think 9).

Well, that is what I was thinking of when we created current version GrowCut Mask. Isn't it working that way? (As far as I understand, putting the mask into new layer instead of current should help).

so, again, thank you. i think you've got the makings of an excellent tool here. are you planning to eventually make this a commercial product?
Craig
Haven't made the decision yet. This may sound naive - but my main target is to refine the technology and let people use it (to share it). Maybe later, we'll make some commercial version, but some free variant will exist in any way, I think.