Add your comments, questions or general discussion about the March Contest entries as well as the contest itself here. This is also a great place to share your techniques or ask others about theirs.

I will post the contest rules and image later tonight.

I will accept replacing the car's license tag or removing it. I just don't want the original one used.

I can't get the image to load?

hehe, this is going to be devious. already the entries are showing how hard this is going to be to judge. and i was waiting for one with tinted windows...hehehe...cheater! :)

craig

Mwah? I actually did a lot of work on the interior. Once I got to a point where the whole thing looked OK to me, I paid a bit more attention to the plethora of car ads on TV and looked around at some major car sites. Didn't take long to realize that tinted windows are pretty much the norm for car ads. I suppose it's often done to disquise an occupant, but more likely because they're selling the exterior style. Hard to say, as I've never done car pix. What surprised me in a couple of the other entries was that the driver's reflection remained in the interior rear view mirror. (There goes my claim to paying attention to detail :bawling: ) Anyway, this was fun and I look forward to more entries. There's a lot more work to this kind of thing than I ever imagined.

There's a lot more work to this kind of thing than I ever imagined. and that's one of the reasons i said this was going to be devious. there are reflections and 'lights' all over the place. if you're really going to remove all signs of the street, then i would say you have to remove all signs of the street lighting. ok, that's nit-picky to death, but studio lighting would be different.

the reflections, the glares, the shadows, the interior where the guy was sitting...it's a lot more work than one might first think. and all that glass...ugh! i think T has been taking lessons from Ro in sadism ;) i may have to enter just so i can play judge.

(btw, lonnie, i think you set the standard here so far. excellent work!)

craig

Can't speak to devious, as your comment was valid. And I agree about the complex nature of this challenge. To reiterate, it's my first contest entry here at RetouchPRO. My initial thought was to wait 'til the last minute to submit as a comparative challenge of this type would seem to favor those who do so since they can tweak their submission based on previous entries. Being a compulsive person though, I just jumped in the frey when I was happy with my initial result. Winning has never really been an impetus for my efforts. I just love doing the work. Furthermore, I probably will be disqualified since I took liberties with the "white background" instruction. I figured the license plate thing had already done that, but TPaul ultimately allowed that flexibility.

Let me just say that I'm anxious to see your entry, Craig.

What surprised me in a couple of the other entries was that the driver's reflection remained in the interior rear view mirror.

I think physics suggests that the reflection is of a passenger, and I know one of the contestants snuck himself into a ferarri. :wink:

Dang, I knew there was a logical explanation. So much for my visualization skills :eek: (P.S. Actually, that's me! I hid in the back seat. Sorry to be so intrusive.) :spchless:

It took me a week to figure out the that the car is a Ferrari :ditsy:

Photoshop to Craig -- tinted windshields and front side windows are illegal in New Jersey. Semi-tinted mine just to be legal.

Lorraine

lorraine, :)

craig

Hi there, just posted my entry and thought I'd pop in and say hi. It certainly was a toughy. The reflection in the rear passanger window drove me to distraction. I didn't want to just tint it, but had no real ideas as to what to put in as detail. Nightmare. It was interesting to see how other people treated the reflections as a whole. It just goes to show, there's never a right or wrong way to go about retouching. That's what i love about it. Certainly got the old grey cells working.
If nothing else, I've really enjoyed the challange and will hopefully make some new friends. Good luck everyone!

I'm loving this challengue, this is my first and I have not finished. Could we ad a little tunning? It will see great with some neon lights below or inside.

Also MOMO wheel :D

Could we ad a little tunning?

Well mine hasn’t been thrown out (yet). But I just changed the tyres. :wink:


Ken.

I just wanted to welcome the new people here -- LonK, InfiniteMonkey and studioj.

LonK and Mr. Monkey -- nice work.

studioj -- I'm looking forward to your neon submission and/or whatever you want to do with the wheels. :scared:

Lorraine (still staying legal to the USA motor vehicle laws). :classic:

Don't expect much, I'm delaying my entry cauze have a lot of work to do, and I can't have fun :(

Don't like that

Ok, I finished my Ferrari, Doesn't have neon lights, well, It haves but I didn't turn they on for the picture ;)

Hi everyone, i'm a newbie here, and a newbie to photoshop too.. hope everybody / anybody can teach me more..

the image was a nightmare! all those reflections, i did'nt even know where to start, so i just changed the color and tinted the windshield, sorry bout that.

oh, i loved every minute of the contest...

hoolah!

Gigadals

Welcome to RetouchPRO Gigadals, you will find this site very interesting, I have something like 2 months here and I didn't stop reading about everything, you can learn a lot from the posts and the tutorials.

Have fun

hi again everyone..

i was wondering how you extracted the ferrari from the background. i personally like using the quick mask, but it takes awfully lot of time to extract. can anyone suggest a faster way?

tanx a lot guys!

Gigadals

Did everything by hand myself... but I can mask fairly quickly, expecially when the object has smooth lines. I do use a stylus as well.

When I have something will strong well defined lines, I find the Pen Tool does and awesome job.

Dave

I resize the image at least 200% and then use the pen tool, once I finish, I create a mask from the working path that I created and use the "feader" (don't remember the correct spelling of that) of 1 or 2 pixels to soften the edge, now I remove or hide the background.

And then I resize again down

studioj.....great job on the interior.

Thanks!

Goofing around, I tryed a different interio, buuuuuut, this will not be retouching, isn't?

ok, here we go. This is how I like to create masks. I find it quite effective and also quite flexible. First you increase the image by 200% then create a path. Make the selection and go to quick mask mode. Once there I blur the mask. How much depends on the size of the image. Once it has been blurred I go to curves and adjust the contrast until the mask, visually, cuts into the image by about a pixel. Then I switch back to selection mode and apply the mask. Done. Nice and neat. Probably a bit over complicated but I've been using it for a while and it's always worked fantastically for me.

hi again everyone..

i was wondering how you extracted the ferrari from the background. i personally like using the quick mask, but it takes awfully lot of time to extract. can anyone suggest a faster way?

tanx a lot guys!

Gigadals

Normally, I avoid masks until the very end when I have to detail the finest points, and then use the layer mask. For most of the extractions, I use the selection tools and the eraser. Also, I use a Wacom.

Lorraine

This is my first contests, hope everyone is having fun with the challenge. I had a time with the windows, trying to make them look as real as possible and still capturing the items behind them. Allen :thumbsup:

Then decided I'd rather shoot on black plexi! AWESOME!

I would preffer black background on the car, but rules are rules.

Also it was for a catalog, and most catalogs are done in White background, ok, this was a great contest

hi, I'm new in here :classic:
Just saw the contest yesterday and started working on it immediately. I couldn't decide if I should go for tinted or plain windows.. the tinted ones would hide the details inside, so eventually I decided to go for a bit of both :wink:
The entries so far are amazing, its going to be real hard to judge.. hehe

Haven't had time this month to enter the contest, but I'd just like to express my admiration of all the entries I've seen.

Not an easy one by any means, with so many lights and reflections to remove and harmonise. T has definitely been mixing with the wrong sorts of people (Ro), and has picked up a sadistic streak I never knew she had.

Good luck everybody, hope to be able to take part in next months contest.

Nice to have you here. I've just seen your website... very nice work indeed.

I've never had so much fun assembling 83 Photoshop layers before... :dizzy:

I think the reason I was so merge-resistant was because I knew it would make a cool Flash layer-based animation after the fact. If only I coulld post a 3.6 MB file here. :aghast:

All in all, a great contest!

To prepare the 1999 Ferrari 355 Spider for the catalog listing.........
Its not a Spider, it is a Ferrari 355 F1 Berlinetta! :tongue:

I would like to see your Flash animation though! Maybe you can upload it to an imagehost or something. :bigthmb:

I stand corrected. The Spider is a convertible and the Berlinetta is the hardtop version of the same car.

Thanks for that clarification!

I'll make the Flash file available via email to anyone who would like a copy. :)

Hello all,

Just to let you know that the Flash animation of the Ferrari retouching is available via FTP. It's a 4.62 MB Zip archive located at:

ftp.smithphoto.com
User: retouch
Password: ferrari

For best appearance, scale your browser window so the car appears to be about 800 px wide, like the entries.
Enjoy!

Thought the members might like to see a vehicle that was just shot in our studio. No street had to be taken off the car. It's just a studio lit shot. Almost no retouching here except the shadow (rendered from the existing shadow), details inside the grill and a couple of minor reflections removed.

For your detailed and knowledgable comments. There's no doubting your expertise in this area.

However I absolutely must take issue with your comment on borrowed items. You are correct to say it's common practice but I need to point out that if it was indeed for a catalogue than it's intended to aid in the sale of the vehicle. Therefore any retouching that doesn't represent the true nature of the vehicle would be counted as misrepresentation and open to court action... certainly in New Zealand. Imagine if someone came to buy the vehicle off the catalogue and the dash unit that was depicted in the picture didn't exist on the car. IN my country you could be up for a $70,000 commerce commission fine (including the company that retouched the car!). I'm sure the US must have similar guidelines.

If Infinites entry (or mine for that matter - as I replaced the tyres rather badly) was done for Ferrari as a client they would have spotted the rogue elements in an instant. Of course if the entries were purely for art's sake then we could be more relaxed. BY the way Infinite, I really liked yor entry which is why you got the mention.

The same theory can be applied to colour in some cases although this can be more forgiving. I agree that any colour can look lighter or darker depending on how it is lit this is something I have used to great effect in my work for Chrysler, Jeep and BMW. However this car was theoretically shot in a white studio and therefore the colour would naturally be lighter rather than darker. It's not impossible to get that effect through the lens but it's rare.

Just so you all don't get the idea that I'm talking through a hole in my rear end, I'm a Senior Art Director in the BBDO advertising network with 18 years experience. I'm not a professional retoucher, in fact I'm very much a hobbyist. But I do sit with and direct retouchers on a daily basis. If they get it wrong, I'm accountable.

Hannibal, I thought your entry was superb and if you ever choose to come to New Zealand's beautiful shores I wouldn't hesitate to hire your services. You are a true talent in my books. Mate, it's my job to be harsh.

Don't paticularly wish to start an arguement but this place is about learning isn't it? I only hope that I can learn enough to be as good as blokes like Hannibal in the future. I also want to point out that everyone here has different strengths and this is but one discipline. I have visited many of your websites and been very impressed by your work. I hope I haven't offended anyone.

T Paul, great contest... loved it and learned heaps. Look forward to your next task. Thanks for your work, we all appreciate it.

Good comments!

In a past life I also wore the hat of Art Director and I know what you mean when you talk about directing retouchers. I'm on the receiving end of that now and have been since I tired of the corporate grind. Prior to that, I was a lowly graphic designer and illustrator, which made it natural for me to go into retouching, which I began with a Paasche AB! haha

We'll agree to disagree on the interior. It's within the art director's license to make sure that if he chose to repurpose a photo that formerly had an occupant, to make sure the formerly obscured area that was restored was accurately represented in retouching. I've had to do this in photo compositions where perhaps a label was partially hidden and then had to be reconstructed. I'm referring to product photography for major corporations, and in my opinion, this is the same thing. I found a 355 at the same angle and "comped in" the area, as I would a label, etc.

By the way, the animation from the Photoshop layers now includes the driver's window "rolling up". I initially hadn't planned a window but one of our photographers who shoots a lot of the Toyota work saw it and said "there wouldn't be an open window in a shot like that", so I put it in...

Have a nice day!

:hurt: I've not so much stirred one up as wacked it with a stick and shouted obscenities at it. I'm sorry if my attempt at manipulating the interior has caused such offense. It was never my intention.
In your argument Peth, you are absolutely correct, there's a very fine line between manipulating an image to enhance it's features and out and out lying to decieve the viewer. With specific legal ramifications, wherever you are and whoever you are dealing with.
At the time I was wondering wether to insert the interior or not, but I thought it was an important message to address and i'm glad you picked up on it (guess that's why they pay you the BIG money!) ;-) When does retouching become manipulation? and at what point does manipulation turn to the dark side.
You made a very valid point, but, I believe, one which is ultimately mis-guided. This is an established technique and not one that should be criticised. In this instance the choice of interior was only selected due to timescales and the limitations of the internet. For a start, I wasn't sure what ferrari it was, which didn't help. Have you any idea how many images come up if you type Ferrari in 'google images'! I wasn't happy with the interior, and rather than make something up, which I knew the client (retouchpro) wouldn't be happy with, I chose to insert a new one (thanks Pocoroba for the defend!).
In live conditions, working for clients such as ferrari, I'm sure they would have better stock art, than some snapshot of a guy driving down a street in new york. If an interior needed to be inserted, a genuine interior would not be difficult to locate and would be insisted upon, both by myself and by the client. As this contest was just for 'Arts Sake', I didn't see the harm in including the interior to make the point.
I've been retouching cars for over 15 years now and have worked on projects with Ford, Range Rover and several Automotive magazines and this is not the first time I have been asked to doctor the originality of a photoshoot. Each time, this was never done behind the clients back, in the hope they wouldn't notice. In most cases it was the entire reason they were employing my services. :cool:
I'm glad the issue is out in the open and I appreciate your candour and believe me, no offense has been taken. I'm just interested to hear what other people have to say on the subject.

No mate, I'm sure you haven't offended anybody. I appreciate both yours and Pocoroba's comments. You both have very valid points. let's leave it there.

As to the big bucks? I only wish they were enough to buy a Ferrari... even an old one!

As you were.

just wish I had come across this site sooner...
and membership is free... hope it stays that way. :)
This is the first time I'm entering a 'contest' and I must admit it has been a wonderful learning experience. Getting to know how different people view a piece of work, points for and against it, the details they notice. in this case the car retouch work was a real toughie. But the reponses have been awesome and most importantly, I learned a lot too by comparing my work with the others, shows where all I can improve more and what all I missed.
will make it a point to take part as often as possible.

I have just been into retouching for almost 5 years now... started at a photo studio restoring photographs... 3 years there, then moved into Y&R as a retoucher for 1 and half years. Then I got married and moved into a sister concern of Y&R in another state (to be with my husband)... been here since. Been learning from the first day I started working and I am still doing so now after about 5 years :).

simply adore this job... :)

Shot this morning for Toyota. For those who haven't had "exposure" to studio-lit auto photography. :idea:

(uploading without the original ICC profile - a 204k file with that - makes the image pretty density-heavy but it is a black car.)

Mate, you've obviously been through the wringer as we say down under. Great to know you're back on deck and back online. You'll be feeling like a new man in no time.

Take care

Peth.

Lonk.

Sorry to hear that. Wishing you all the best for a speedy recovery.

Ken.

LonK- Hope you're feeling well soon!

Had a bit of a scare there Lonk. Glad to hear you're ok. Am sending you some friends of mine to help get you back on form.

These are a series of messages which began last Monday between myself and the contest administrator, T Paul, as well as Doug Nelson.

"Hijacked contest, in reality."

03-27-2006

Hi,

This is my first contest at RetouchPro, although I've been a member here since 2001. Given the state of the rules, I was more than a bit leary about spending the time on an entry; even my fellow retouchers here at the studio were questioning the true validity, based on the rules set forth.

I believe that the contest is highjacked from the get-go and this is why.

1. To be judged by other entrants is totally inappropriate, and it would be best if the entries were judged by members other than entrants, rather than being limited to them (all 25 of them). I've never heard of a contest judged by the entrants themselves. It seems to induce a bias or slant to the voting.

2. Members of a forum develop online friendships and they will favor those people before any other, rather than judging indiscriminately.

3. If an entrant is unable to see to the extent that they are capable of retouching - how then are they able to discern what is correctly executed and what is not?

4. A jury of overall membership, excluding entrants would be carried out in a way that is more detached from favoritism and would attract a broader involvement of competent and skilled retouchers acting as judges, resulting in a fair outcome.

5. Even a jury of moderators who are not participants would be preferable to a jury of entrants, who are possibly even more biased after they've read comments leveled at their work prior to placing their own votes. All of a sudden, an entry with good merit - loses merit due.

I feel that the contest should be recalled and reconsidered as far as the voting policy is concerned. I feel strongly enough about this that I would go as far as to say pull my entry and let the remaining participants volley for the results, if there is no recall.

Further, it wouldn't matter if I were in first, second or nineteenth position in the voting. I've felt this was an unusual and undesirable voting policy since the contest began, and I'd say the same thing either way, based on all the points mentioned above.

If there is no recall, I think that there should be another method used for future contests as this method is unfair to all participants.

Good luck to the remaining contestants.

Pocoroba

Re: Hijacked contest, in reality.

These are valid points and have been brought up to Doug numerous times. The important thing that Doug wants people to remember is that this is a learning web site. The contests are free and he had hope they would bring in new members as well as encourage a strong dialog of tips and suggestions.

Futhermore, the moderaters are volunteers and most have other jobs, so having a panel of judges would prove difficult and more time consuming than Doug wants to ask of them. Overall, everyone so far seems to vote according to a set criteria and the contests have played out fair with the strongest entry winning. In likfe you are judged by your peers and who better to judge you here than those that have been sweating over the same project


Peers - yes. If the mod's are too busy then it should be carried out by peers who are not entrants and will not be biased based upon preliminary voter comments or other associations with other contestants. This is patently unfair, without a doubt.

If this is the way this contest and future contests will be carried out, I'll surely not participate and nobody will have anything to learn from an entry that doesn't exist.

Sorry, but it becomes a total waste of time to participate in that atmosphere.


03-30-2006

Hello,

As I said Monday, this contest should be recalled, and I don't care that I'm getting 1st place votes. It's a sham, it's unfair to all contestants involved and I'm going to take the time to voice that to the full membership in an individual thread after the contest is complete, noting that I began this request for a recall last Monday, long before the votes were placed.

For the reasons that contestants shouldn't vote against each other and should be voted for by non-participating peers, retouchers, a larger voting pool which would include more people capable of judging quality retouching or poor retouching. People who will not place votes with bias, depending on how they were voted for in early stages, or because someone is a "buddy", or for any other reasons.

It should be recalled, and be put to the mass of RetouchPro.com members, excluding participants.

Thanks,
Pocoroba


Recall

03-30-2006
Please direct any future contest complaints to me. T has enough on her plate already.

Read through some of the earlier contest discussions, I think you'll find your points have already been discussed to exhaustion.

__________________

03-30-2006

Then these complaints might as well be addressed, don't you agree? I only addressed them to the author of this contest since they are officiating over it and have set the "rules" as it were. In our studio, everyone - photographers, retouchers and even clients were fairly dumbfounded as I have been that a contest like this on what is supposed to be a forum of professional retouchers (RetouchPro.com) and is comprised mainly of dabblers and aspiring retouchers rather than professionals like myself and a few other participants. The majority of the participants don't have the ability to see what they are supposed to be looking for as a judge, let alone executing it themselves, and this makes the judging pool fairly useless.

If it were judged by the majority of the RetouchPro membership, more skilled retouchers would be involved and only then would it be a fair contest. The same amount of time would be alotted for judging, but excluding the contestants and including a much broader scope of experience to the judging pool. Even if I win this contest, which could still happen as 6 votes are still out and I'm down by 2 - I'll still raise this issue to the RetouchPro forum en masse, because it is an issue that needs to be addressed in a community such as this. Why should anyone participate under the current guidelines, really? The newbies still will, but who is it that you want to attract to the contests on Retouch PRO? It's fairly ridiculous. Exhausted issue?

Thanks for your time.

__________________

So, since I effectively withdrew from the competition as stated, InfiniteMonkey has the 2nd place.

I'll participate in another contest once the voting pool is comprised of the entire membership, excluding contestants. If that never happens, so be it. If members disagree with my position as stated, that's fine too. Differences are a good thing.

In addition - I had planned on presenting this to the forum regardless of the "tie" outcome, win, lose or draw...

Back to retouching cars for a living...

I have to say that I agree, with everything that pocoroba has said. You may be right that ultimately the best entrant may be victorious, but the process is definitely floored. I understand that this whole site is for learning purposes and that the competition is just a way for members to show what they have learnt, but can't you see that any competition that awards prizes should be judged from a position of impartiality. You mention that moderators are too busy to deal with issues like this, to which I say, tough. If you're going to have competitions, you need to have someone in a position of authority to make the call. I'm sure you could find several members that specialise in each field represented in retouching who would be more than happy to don the judges cap and give us the benefit of their experience. Personally I would have thought Pocoroba would have been the perfect choice to step in, as he does it for a living and has more experience in this area, than the rest of us put together. The 'real world' examples he supplied have been invaluable in my understanding of the process. His critiques were both fair and informative, surely the whole point of the excercise.

Competitions are a wonderful idea, and if I'm honest, the main reason I joined the site. I loved the idea of pitting my skills against talented professionals from around the world. Unfortunately, if the judging isn't done from an impartiial position of authority you might as well just give us all dice and ask us to play yahtzee.

I think getting non-entrants to cast their votes would be very interesting, though probably a little impractical. Having said that, it would be wonderful to get the whole community involved. Which is surely the whole point of the site.

This has probably all been said before but I agree with Pocoroba again here, I probably won't get involved again unless things change. I hope they do because I really enjoyed it.

Just one last thing. For all those who noticed. my off-side wing mirror, was never moved. It remained in exactly the same position as it was on the original. You can check. So many people mentioned it and it's been really bugging me. You're all right though, there is SOMETHING wrong with it, but it's location is perfect! lol!

Thanks again everyone for a very stimulating competition and I just hope we can sort all this out so we can get back to the thing we all love.

Seems to me you guys are taking this thing way too serious, which I guess happens when people are asked to compete.

But I think a little perspective needs to be entered here.

I'm not arguing that your points have no value, if this were a "professional" contest, but its not. Its supposed to be a FUN competition put on to hopefully stimulate discussion on retouch problems and techniques.

Yes many competitors are not "professionals", and may not be "qualified" to judge some entries, what of it, they still have opinions which are valid, and can judge according to those opinions.

I don't see them taking their bat and ball home when the organisers don't agree with their standpoint.

If you want to leave, that's your perogative. Good riddance. I for one will miss your work, but not your attitude.

I want to start by saying how grateful I am to Doug, T, Ro and to those who visit RetouchPRO on a regular basis and contribute to the development of many eager learners. In no way would I ever want to undermine your efforts by any comments I make.

I think in the wash up, those people who had the most talented and professional entries rose to the top... and I refer to Hannibal and Pocoroba.
You could say that in this case, the voting did it's job.

However. And it's a rather big however! This is a learning forum, is it not? Do we learn from votes (and comments) that are misguided by inexperience? I would suggest that the learnings are blurred at best. It's for this reason that I agree with Pocoroba and Infinite on the fact that the voting system is flawed. But it's not about the winning, it's about the learning. Sure there's a prize, but that's just a sweetner! For most professionals, going out and buying a product like that is just part of business and in some cases; a drop in the bucket.

I wouldn't go so far to say that it's biased, or rigged, or a sham. Pocoroba I believe your passion needs to be tempered somewhat with a little objectivity. Those are strong words and belie the best intentions of Doug and the Moderators.

But there is a problem in that those amateurs amongst us (and there quite a few of us) may not understand why a certain entry has risen to the top. Also why other entries didn't deserve to, for that matter! I don't think that opening the voting up to non-entrants is the solution... I'm a semi-regular contributor to the challenge forums and believe me, spreading the net wider will only catch more of the same fish!

Here's my solution then, before everyone falls asleep from boredom. TPaul, you can tell me if this is plausible or not. We carry on the voting as it stands at the moment... hey, it's half the fun of it whether we know what we're talking about or not! Plus, when we closely study other entries we may well learn a few things! These votes go into what we label 'The peoples vote'. It doesn't determine the prize winner but merely sets a point of comparison. The winner is chosen by a carefully selected expert in his or her field. Pocoroba, this could and should have been you in this case as you do this for a living. It would mean that you sacrifice your participation for the greater good of the learning process, but hey, you're a professional, what do you have to prove? I felt that the 'process animation' that you so kindly made available was an incredible insight to the professional process and approach. And it's the imparting of this knowledge that we need here.

You could tell entrants why an entry deserved to win and also why comments may have been mis-guided... that way we all learn.

For the next challenge you would then become the entrant as the disciplines have changed.

TPaul, I guess you're thinking that's all well and good but how the heck do we find these people? Well maybe it's a regular post on the Homepage, calling for experts in the fields of historic restorations, digital painting, automotive retouching etc etc... For instance if there was ever a colouring contest I'd be trying to get Vikki to judge as her work is beyond compare in my books. If it works, the judges could have their profile displayed along with the competition rules so we all know who we have to impress. It might make us all go a little further.

To end this post, I'd like to say that I'll continue to enter these contests whenever I have the time to, regardless of what happens with the rules. I haven't been a member for long but some of you are starting to become friends and the world could do with more friends. Pocoroba, I understand your passion but please continue to enter, the same goes for you InfiniteMonkey.

Hannibal, well done mate. You've got huge talent.

Congratulations to Hannibal and Pocoroba.

Since I'm not a professional, I now have to wonder if I should enter the contests.

This is really a learning place for me , and I've done well with my contest submissions so far. But, in judging, I'm now wondering if I'm qualified. I am not a peer of the professionals.

In judging this contest, I based my selections on my non-professional take of what was supposed to be a catalog item.

I judged as any potential consumer would. I voted for the ones that drew my attention to, and made me interested in finding out more about, the product being advertised.

Congratulations to everyone who entered (professionals or not). Keep up the good work.

Lorraine

Sigh

I really shouldn't post in contest threads, because it inevitably makes things worse rather than better.

1. Posting private messages in open forum is just about the rudest. thing. ever. That's why they're called "private" messages.

2. Although there are many reasons for the contests, my primary goal is to offer something of value to the struggling professional. Maybe a morale boost, maybe a resume line or a website bullet point. That doesn't mean established pros or hobbyists aren't welcome, quite the opposite in fact. They're just not the target demographic. Fulltime pros can raise the bar and demonstrate new possibilities, which is never a bad thing, and I'm always delighted if amateurs learn something or simply have fun (pros are welcome to have fun as well).

3. Limiting voters to those that participate is the fairest practical way to handle it at this point. Opening it up voting to anyone with an email address (the only requirement to register here) would simply invite fraud and flooding. Narrowing it to a few select judges would simply invite yet another argument over who's qualified as a judge. And I personally feel that anyone that has retouched the exact same image has earned credibility as a judge.

4. This site is run on a time-available basis by unpaid and underappreciated volunteers. It is not a business, there are no resources to delve into for more sophisticated plans. However, this does not preclude changes as resources become available, as anyone that's been here for a few years can attest. We invite you into our little corner of the web and hope a good time will be had by all. But there will always be those who feel compelled to criticize the decor, demanding the furniture be rearranged, and in general trying to grab more than their share of the attention. That doesn't mean they can't have good ideas, it's simply a reflection on their manners.

Honestly I have to say that I also thought that the process of judging is a little unusual!
Before Pocoroba started this discussion, I already had a suspicion that there could be preconception involved.
Example:
As the votingthread progresses, I was elaborately counting the votes to determine my ranking. It than was clear to me that Pocoroba was sneaking up to me en became a threat for my 1st place position.Then it was time for me to vote. I thought that Pocoroba had the best entry but I also wanted to win.
How easy would it be for me NOT voting on Pocoroba?

Having said that, I want to make clear that this is just an opinion and not a complaint!( no reason for me to complaint anyway :D ) I like this forum and like the constest, and I want to continue to join in the future. As this forum is free and the moderaters are volunteers, I think we don't have any right to make any demands.

Ok back to the contest

I am very honored with my 1st place! :bow:
I want to thank everybody for the compliments and voting on me. Especially Lonk. Recovering from surgery he still took the effort to vote, that realy moved me! Get well soon Lonk!
Pocoroba and Peth sort of offered me a job. This also stunned me because I am actually just a beginner. I don't know how serious this offer is, but unfortunately I don't have the money to move to another country.
But it inspires me to continue retouching and trying to make this my profession.

Oh yeah one more thing, moonwriter, also thanks vor voting, but the right mirror is there. :wink:

Thankz

Mate, I don't do the hiring but I can set up the interview... just a beginner eh? well keep it up and best of luck. Heh heh... I wondered how you'd approach the voting ;) I saw the same thing happening - gave the contest a little more spice.

Lorraine my dear ( can I call you that?) You appear to be so sweet and I love the work that I've seen you do - you are a professional in your own right. So your strength isn't in retouching cars! Maybe it's a guy thing (at the risk of appearing chauvenistic). Who cares. There's been plently of contests that you have been far more qualified than those that have had a clear opinion in this forum. please don't take my comments as trying to shut you out - I wouldn't dream of it and I can't imagine being so rude to someone who is SO NICE to everyone that comes here.

I'm on my knees Lorraine begging your forgiveness if I gave the wrong impression... seriously!

Ok let's move on guys eh? I'm regretting opening my big trap - I'd never want to ruin a good thing.

Craig

chauvenistic... I didn't spell that right did I?

Hi Peth --

My post certainly was not directed to you. You've have been more than helpful to me on many occasions, be it directly or indirectly. Your comments and critiques are always valid, well thought out, and very much appreciated. For example, you pointed out the correct wheel positioning in this contest. I had no idea about that or so many other things, so that's why I'm questioning my ability to judge fairly when it comes to professional work.

You are correct in saying that cars are not my thing. :knockedou I hate to drive, let alone know what a car should look like.

Take care,

Lorraine

Hanibal - Many congratulations, a very worthy winner.


Well done

Steve

HannybalVector, Pocoroba, and all contestants - congratulation to all, that was very interesting and usefull contest. :nod: It was very honorable to me to compete with esteemed pro retouchers and extremely talented non-professional people as well. As to the raised discussion about voting, my position is that it is not actually a sport, but just a nice game between friendly people, not really devoted to getting a prize, first place, or something like. I think, it is more honest to be judged with people, who bid a game, like I did.

congrats to all the winners :). This was a real enjoyable contest and almost everyone's work was amazing, so I guess I should also say grea work everyone!!! :bigthmb:

Congrats to HannibalVector on the win. I was honored to receive a few votes.

Thanks to all who expressed concern about my health. My recovery is progressing surely, albeit slowly. I appreciate your kind thoughts and wellness wishes.

Ah there you are, I am glad to hear that your recovery is progressing.
Thanks for the congrats.