I notice that most folks studiously avoid saying exactly how much they charge for a given restoration. I have no dreams of being able to supplant my current job, but it would be worthwhile to know what my skills are worth.

I charge by the job. I usually look over the picture and determine what level of restoration it is. Either minor, moderate or severe and even how much manipulation is involved if that's the type of job they want anc charge according to a price range I determined in each group.
Charging by the hour was difficult for me because some of the time consuming tasks are not necessarily the fault of the restoration job but the restorer (me) or the equipment or just doing something the hard way when there is a quicker way to do it. So to figure out the actual time spent restoring I would constantly have to be clocking and that's not how I like to work. Just my own opinion.
DJ

I'm with DJ on this. I think one needs to determine how much their time is worth. Then determine how long it should take to do the restoration (providing all goes well). Also evaluate your skills. If you are overpriced, and don't do a good job, word of mouth could kill your business.
I never keep track of my time. I have some kind of artistic temperment that sometimes allows me to breeze through the work, and at other times, want to get out of the business. I use a basic rate, no matter how long it takes.
Interestingly, I recently increased my prices on my website. My reasoning is, if I'm too underpriced, people are leery that there must be a catch. I think most people are willing to pay for quality work. Hopefully that's what I'm providing.

Probably another good poll would be, "how long does/should it take to do a restoration?".

thanks for the replies!

(Vikki, your examples are outstanding)

DJ, just downloaded some of your examples, they are fabulous also! Thanks for the inspiration. As I said, I have a day job at the moment, but by the time I get through my wife's closet full of genealogical photos I'll have skills I will want to market. You guys are inspiring.

Glad to be of help. :)
DJ

I also charge by the job. I tend to spend way too much time on restorations to charge by the hour. I think I'm a little under priced with my bas prices and intend to review them in the near future. I agree with Dj it's hard to watch a clock when you're working on a restoration. I tend to spend more time than is necessary sometimes on some jobs but I'm happy to do it because with each job I learn a bit more and add to my expertise there fore if I charged by the hour I would be charging clients for time I spend experimenting or learning a new technique.

Vikki said " if I'm too underpriced, people are leery that there must be a catch. I think most people are willing to pay for quality work."

I fully agree with that. If you thought you had a serious health problem, would you go to a doctor who charged $10.00 per visit? Why would someone leave their only treasured photo of Great Aunt Martha in the hands of one whose price for their work was low? If they really have something of importance to them, they just might pick someone where the price is on the high end of the scale. Either way, I think it's a tough business to make a living. I think you need to be professional in everything you do, and set your prices to reflect that. Just my opinion. If you just want to practice, you're on the right website. :)

Ed

Thanks.
I think you have the right idea:
but by the time I get through my wife's closet full of genealogical photos I'll have skills......
You should also have quite a large portfolio!

Another good thing, that everyone here does, is to keep trying to improve their skills and knowledge about the business. I think that's how you eventually become a master of your trade ( and can justify your price).

I tried different methods but found that charging $7.50 per 15 min. interval (excluding scanning charge) and rounding up the difference has proven satisfactory. I also give my customers a choice of how intense a restoration they want. 99% are thrilled to have the gross scratches taken out, tone/color adjusted and dont care about having every little blemish removed. On average most jobs take about 30 min. Tom

If you are running a business (and I do) and you rely on that business to buy the four necessities of life with (and they are bread, peanut butter, jelly and toilet paper) and I do, then one has to be very carefull about how you do this.
We give the customer a price for the job. But that price is based on a per hour basis that the customer never sees. We (hopefully) know about how long it takes us to perform any of the tasks that are going to be used to complete the job. By just adding them all up the customer gets a rate for that job. Any consumable supplies are of course added to the price.
This way we do not have to really time ourselves for every job we do. (I do not like watching a clock while I work either) However if we get better, or buy faster equipment, or whatever and are able to do a task in a shorter period of time, then we adjust our time requirements.
I might add that I have been getting some e-mails from independent retouch people and cannot believe how cheap some people work! I know just about enough about this to know whats involved and am really turned off by the cheap prices. Remember the old saw about getting what you pay for, and you can't be getting much at some of those prices. If I think that way as a prospective customer, what do your customers think???
Mike

Too bad there's no way to give this same kind of poll to people that have no knowledge of restoration to see how much they think it's worth. That would be truly valuable information.

But Doug, thats part of the fun of the job!

Customer one exclaims, "$25.00 just for a stinking picture!!!!".

Customer two calmly says "$175.00, is that all, I was ready to spend much more than that".

:depressed

Mike

Mike
Sounds like you got the same customers as I do. :D
DJ

DJ
Since we are about as far apart as we can get, and we both have the same type customers, does that mean the people in the middle have the best type of rich, easy going, will buy anything and be amazed that it costs so little customers?:nod:
Mike

Or maybe they just migrate here with the rest of the Snow Birds in the winter. :D
DJ

Mike,

Your customers live here too. When I was in business, I hated to hear either of those responses. The first one got to me because I knew my prices were fair. The second one got to me because it made me wonder if my prices were too low! The first customer is hard to make happy, while the second type is usually relatively easy. Oh, the joys of being a business owner! :)

Ed

We charge by the job, based on time. We charge $30 for a scan (multiple originals at one time and the price goes down per original scanned), optimization is included in the scan price.

Retouching is per large area of detail (sky, clothing, etc), face, body part, and etc. that needs art work. Each item mentioned has a sliding scale from $25 to $100, depending on the damage. This also gives the customer the oportunity to have us do more or less work on different areas. Quoting this way our restorations range from $100 to $600. Most restorations are done in 2 to 3 weeks. If a customer asks why it can't be done quicker, it is because of our workload and the artist value of simmer time to make sure that their restoration is the best job possible.

If a job feels like we are painting the Mona Lisa from scratch we will quote more and also quote a longer period of time (2 to 3 months). The extra time alows us the flexibilty of working with breaks (working 3 days straight on the same restoration drives us crazy), and the extra time reinforces the value (it's that much work that really is worth this much money). I think it is the really difficult jobs that most restoration professionals underprice, it is twice as much work but they have a hard time charging twice as much money.

I should also mention that we freely do test scans while the customer is getting a quote, and will even do a quick optimize, then zoom in on a face so that the customer can really see the work ahead of us, or when that is not available we will hand our customer a good lupe.

Roger

Thanks! This is great information on a thread that unfortunately died out a while back. Hopefully this post will rekindle some interest.

I have been flirting on and off for a year now about whether to hang out my shingle. It seems the more skilled I get at restorations, the less I think I know...

Don't be intimidated ... with photoshop there is almost always a quicker, better, faster way of doing everything that we do that we havn't figured out yet. The thing that gives us the confidence to hang our shingle is not expertise, but the persistance to do the best job possible with no excuses. We know what we want the finished work to look like - we don't give up until we are sure we have got it as good as it can be. We don't look from the original to finished and decide we are done if it is impressive, until it meets our goals. And yes, some restorations go quicker than we think they will, and some take a lot longer...

Roger

Roger - thanks for the detailed info! I like how you give the customer a loupe (if a scan is not possible). That really does make a difference in the customer's perception of the work that's ahead for the restorer!

Jeanie

Hi all

Just had to jump in here when I saw some of the replies...

I've worked in the computer industry for many years. A while back, my wife and I started our own business doing computer classes and myself doing a bit of consulting and repair/upgrade PC work for small companies and individuals.

We also had a tough time with pricing there as well. Too high and you would "scare off" the individuals or small businesses, to low and you get the other end...why are they so cheap?

I think that what many folks don't realize is how much went into our own learning, personal developement, aches & pains to get to the level we are at and at the service level we are able to provide. Once we kept that though in mind, pricing (higher) wasn't as tough.

I (and my wife) worked extremely hard to learn and get to where we are, if it was that easy, why don't you ___________ (fix your own computer, repair/retouch your own photo, fill in your own specialty).

...and that's all it's worth, really! :) Whenever I go out I have samples in my jacket pocket. Invariably people ask what I do. (I walk around with a beret and a scarf on). At that moment I draw the sample envelope out, (they're 4 x 6's), and I say..."when people give me something like this" (this being the damaged version), I say...."I usually give them back something like this." (the restored version). What I do is simply remain quiet and wait, well, I smile too. :) My philospohy is just like everyone has an old coin in a dresser drawer, so also do they have an old photo which could use restoration. Now my approach at that time is when they ask me for a price or "how much" I say..."well let me take a look at the photo because they're all unique and I'll be able to give you an idea." OK, I've received the photo now and I say..."let me see what I can do and we'll take another look." We're now at the point where I have retuned the photo to them, they like what they see, I remain quiet so that they can say what they feel about it, and they ask me what do they owe me. I simply say..."just $x and smile. Now mind you, if I did a $100 job I might not do it this way but most photos I do are under $50 so it's not too much trouble really. No one up to now has refused me. Am I just lucky? No, just too dumb to do business the "right way!" :)

I think it's time to give this thread a little life. Maybe some of you have more to offer in the year that this thread has been around.

I am going to hang out my shingle this month. I will take the by-the-job approach using some of the guidelines provided by DJ and Vikki. I am going to be brick-and-mortor at first. When and if I get enough time available I will consider a web site. I guess you could say my job is interferring with my business plans. I have to do something because the IRS expects me to be trying to earn some income, especially since I had a lot of startup cost in 2002.

Anyway this thread has been a lot of help to me. Maybe some more info will find it's way here soon.

After 20 years of accumulated sales experiences maybe I am just too dumb to know how to do business the right way. However, I wonder what I'm doing right when I receive actual money for doing business this way. On my webpage, humble and unsophisticated as it may be, I have a marketing piece of several thumbs and some contact information. Not what you'd call award winning in any sense. So far I have garnered two jobs from that and made $110. This piece was made last month and I use it in person to get work, not from the webpage. I also have two photo shops displaying my samples, recruited 4 part-time salespeople, basically just cool types who think I do nice work, and who I'll split my fees with for bringing the business. I have also been asked to teach a restoration class in NYC where I've been offered an "honorarium." Actually I'd do it for free. There is a common expresssion bandied about these days, that of "thinking outside of the box." Everyone I have ever spoken to tells me that they make "0" with their webpage and have widely varying opnions of "how to" make money with this, no one agreeing with me. I also have applied to over 20 restoration services on the web who all tell me that their business is slow and they don't need anyone right now. Oh well, this is what makes the world go around. In sales and business there is one simple measuring stick for success....money. Opinions are worth just that, including mine.

Noticed tonight that Olan Mills is offering restoration on their web site. The one flat rate for all restorations, $59.00. This includes restoration, colorization, and manipulation and one print. They also claim that they use proprietary software. Anyone seen their work?

They have several samples right there. Seems as good as anyone elses's work to me. I'll tell you one thing tho, pretty soon the competition and general "off-shoring" of work in America will drive these prices down also to the ground floor level. I received one inquiry from a man from India who was seeking information from me for that purpose. Also, "freelance" sites operate globally so it's probably going on more than we know already. If you knew that you could get work in for $59 flat but also received double or triple the orders what would you do? Volume was always an option in business. You can't make a living on just a few "units" and "repeat" customers may not exist in this work. How many photos does the average person have available for restoration? "Actions" do alot for us now and will increase in the future. I don't mean to sound so "Doomsday" but too much work has already been washed away by technology and exportation.

They're in alot of K-Marts and Toys-R-Us locations too. Wouldn't that be sweet to have?

I guess I'm lucky that I have a good job as my main source of income. I'm hoping to build the business up as a parachute in case this good job decides to leave me. I'm not getting any younger and the older I get the less marketable I become in my field.

...the one of being older, but I'm not in the "job" club right now. I learned software to get more work and that was ok for several years but has dried up for the time being. I just try to pick up what I can as a supplement to a "zero" income. Sad commentary at 53 years of age huh? Just this evening the guy who does my prints asked me to do a faded shot and barter for prints in return. I'm spending close to $50 a month for those now so the barter works for me. It's one baby step at a time tho with these "accounts."

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could help me out on this, I am trying to start my own retouch bussiness and wanted to know how to go about the fun part of taxes. Is it considered a service?

I would appreciate any help or suggestions!

Thanks!

The way it was explained to me when I got my sales tax license is that restoration/retouching is a service, thus not subject to sales tax (at least in the state of Colorado). Also, if I include one print as part of my services, then it's included in the service and not taxed. However, if a client offers more prints than are included in my service, those prints are taxable.

For the prints that are taxable, then you have to determine where the client lives in relation to your taxing "district". For example, my business is outside city limits, so I don't have to collect city sales tax - I only collect county and state sales tax, as long as the client also lives in my county. If I had a client from outside of my county, but still within the state, then I would only collect state tax, since that's the only "base" that we have in common. Of course, that means if a client lives out of state, I do not collect any sales tax at all (assuming I mail the prints to the other state. If an out-of-state client were to pick up the prints at my business for some reason, then I would be required to collect sales tax.

Have I made that clear as mud?? You should check with your own state laws as they are most likely different in every state.

Jeanie

suz4x4
In all fairness, the very last place you want to ask a question about taxes is here on a site devoted to retouching. :)
The tax laws vary so much from state to state, county to county, city to city etc that you really need to check with whatever authorities exist in your locality.
Most of the tax people I have delt with have one thing in common, they want that tax money (their wages come out of it) and they will be more than glad to tell you all about how to go about collecting whatever taxes you are supposed to. I am sure that they will assist you in getting all the necessary forms, permits or whatever it takes to make sure you are a "legal" business in your area. And they will collect whatever fees are necessary for you to open your doors!
I have always just gone in (or phoned) and started with the line "I am thinking of opening a business, what do I need to do?" Notice that I did not imply that I was already doing business, just thinking about doing it! That is usually an important point. :D
Anyway, goodluck and don't let the tax folks scare you off, but at the same time don't put your foot in the water where the sharks live........
Mike

Jeaniesa & Mike,


I will check it out even further. I think NY might be the same as colorado. I will try not to let it all scare me off! It is nice to know how other people are handling things and that your not too far off! ( well maybe I'm alittle off- in what direction is to be determined:D .)

Thanks for your help I appreciate it!


Sue

I haven't posted in some time now but after reading this, I felt that there might be some benefit for the dozens of new readers to know that business is not "universally" bad!

With the accent here on a positive report - I've just closed the books on a great year and it appears right now that my net for January will easily be in excess of $8,500 - thanks in a large part to the usual annual response we get from the Christmas cards that we sent out.

During the past year I've increased my pricing in order to cut a backlog that is still in excess of 3 months and far too much work for this 73 yr. old man! I've raised the small orders for custom printing, media conversions etc. to a minimum order of $39.50 now and for the retouching (the art work end of the business) to $139.50 minimum (not including prints).

For the information of those who do not know me, I've kept no "secrets" to anything in my business and have posted all of the info on my methods, sales, advertising, etc.here long ago. Very little has changed and thanks to Doug, those posts should be fairly easy to find in the archives so no need to repeat any of it here.

Problems - sure - like everybody else I have my share. The changes from traditional to digital has been a pain for me and still is! Given a choice I still have a tendency to revert to the old ways whenever possible and I am still having trouble finding competent help.

STORY TIME! As some of you may know, the Portland market is a highly competitive area - yet this past year a new photo copy and restoration shop opened less than a mile from me! A father-son team that were offering the "price" advantage. Big grand opening and splash in the local papers but out of business in less than three months! Like the car commercials with the extreme sports, you gotta ask , "What were they thinking about?" How could you possibly build public trust in 90 days?

The bottom line is this - you "buy" market share with time and money and anyone that wants to implement a business plan has to know that you cannot increase your market share with a single "feature" and that includes price!! Visualize a scale with benefits on one side, price on the other - and think about how you can tip the balance to benefits to offset any price you set, then how you are going to get THAT story out to the public. Do it and you'll have all the business you can handle simply because there are literally billions of photos that are self destructing every year and only a few thousand people around who know anything at all about how to salvage them.

Jim Conway
Timemark Photo Conservator

Thanks for the uplifting post Jim!! I for one need all the encouragement I can get right now! :D

And congrats on your great year!

Jeanie

Thanks for your insite Jim. I am trying to begin my business. So far it has been a big eye opener. A lot more to consider that I had planned on. I am going to have to go to my City Hall to get the full information as to what permits and tax licenses I need. I have been unable to glean this information from their Web site or from the State Web site either. I'll have to hunt more agressively for the information.

I'm so glad that I can start small and hopefully grow my business over time. I can't believe that Jim's new competor came and went so fast. They never should have begun a new business if they were unprepared to lose money for at least the first year. But, that happens to a lot of new businesses. I guess that is one reason why the majority of small businesses fail.

Anyway, thanks again guys for the information.

Hi,


It is definitly an eye opener to try and start your own business.

I did find out that in NY (Long Island) you do have to charge tax, it is considered tangable personal property. it's 8.5%. just one more thing to worry about.
I did not check into any permits or anything else. Should I?????

If anyone has any other tips on starting a business let me know! If I find anything else out I will be sure to post it.

Thanks

Suz,

Just checked to see if there's a Small Business Association in your area - found the NY business "startup kit" here (http://www.sba.gov/ny/ny/nydokit.html). That should tell you everything you need to know about starting a business in NY!

Jeanie

Hi,

Thank you for the link. I will be sure to check it all out!
:)

And be certain that your tax preparer doesn't forget to include the form for Self Employment Tax. This is your Social Security contribution and is mandatory in the US. I wasn't aware of this when I first started my business in 1990 and had to ante up two years in arrears.

June

Let me relate a short story about tax's that happened to me. When I first started my studio I didn't make much profit, my wife had a full time job, and I had another part time job. The idea of hiring someone to do my taxes looked like an unnecessary expense! After a few years things are going along pretty well, and so at the end of the year I am doing my taxes and find I owe about $6K :( . So I put all the paperwork away for a month, dragged it all back out, did it all over and now owed better than $7K!:( :(
So made an appointment with a tax preparer that was recommended by a friend, and when she got done they owed me about $4K :D :D :D Then she says who did your taxes last year? We ended up filing amended returns for as far back as we could go and I ended up with something like a $10K refund. At the time she charged me about $100.00. One of the better deals I ever made.
The point to all of this is that there are some things that most of us are just not that good at. The trick is to be able to recognize what it is that you can really do well, and what it is that you need to farm out. Tax's and some of that kind of paperwork is really complex and if you are not careful can come back to really bite you. Be cautious!
:)
Mike

Hi Everyone!

I just discovered Retouchpro yesterday and am just amazed! This is such a wonderful resource!!

I am just starting up my own photo restoration, retouching & photo art business.
Any advice on what to charge when a client has 20-30 pictures that are in varying condition from needing only minor attention to major restoration? Would a total package price be the best approach? If so, how to decide on a fair price without scaring him away from the whole deal because it's too much?

How do you factor in things like Costco's online Kodak photo services (www.costco.com) where you can crop, adjust the brightness, eliminate red eye and add a sepia tone on your own for free and then order your prints for under $3.00 for a Kodak 8x10 glossy? Just to see how good their service is, I downloaded a picture and experimented. They offer no scanning service and you must download a digital picture directly to their site. But once there, their tools may be enough if someone has a basically good picture that needs only very simple cropping, a sepia tone and/or red eye elimination.

Is there any kind of ethical obligation to inform clients of such deals for minor restorations??

Hope to hear some responses very soon

Thank you,
Diane

Diane
Welcome aboard!
As for your question on what to charge: The varying conditions of a clients prints can be a real problem. So what I have done is to figure out about how much time any given repair will take. Then I figured out how much $/hour I would like to make. Then I memorised all that. So when a customer comes in, I make a list of each orginal, and give them a $ amount for each orginal that includes not only the repairs but the prints that they want. Some say go for it, others may break it up in segments as the total is too big for one purchase or whatever. When they call on the phone and ask about prices I tell them that after I see the orginal I will give them a bid on the job. This seems to work pretty good for us.
The Costco thing in not a factor in my business. I do not worry about it or tell my customers about it. Does the Ford dealer tell the customer about what the Chevy dealer offers? Never happened to me. Ethics is not a factor here.
Good luck
Mike

I live in an area with a very depressed economy. With the uncertainty of our future, I charge by the hour. I actually have a kitchen timer I use for the restore only. I do not charge for scanning nor printing, nor do I charge when their is a learning opportunity. I may spend 6 hours learning something and then start over with the timer to see how long it really takes. I call that a knowledge deposit. It doesn't go in the bank, but it really helps me grow in my craft. I give them one print with the restore and sell additional prints accordingly. The more they buy, the less it costs. I also offer a CD or DVD, but I imagine many people take these to the Wal-Mart Machine and make their own copies. I've heard rumors of people talking about my services in front of the Wal-mart photo machine. Hmmm! Maybe I should display one of my cards there.

I can't let this bother me. I've been paid $20.00 per hour to do a job. Hopefully, this is enough to offset such activity I have no control over, without being so high priced that no one in my area can afford me.

Dear Kstein & Mike:

Thanks very much for responding to my post! I am still a bit confused what to do in this situation. Let's say you could do a minor restoration in 30 minutes (or less) and that a certain customer has 10 such restorations. Would you then bill him approximately $10 each for the minor restorations? Wouldn't $100 for the 10 not be too low?? What if this client is from your community where others are likely to find out your arrangement and you'd like to be earning about $20 if a client has just one minor restoration?

I am just starting up and any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Diane

Hi Diane

My feeling is don't package and quote per type of damage, here is our format;

We charge for scanning which includes global corrections, the more originals to scan, the less each scan is.

We charge for art work based on the amount of damge, the kind of detail needed, and the subject matter of the damage. We have written up a chart to help keep us consistent. Subject matter means face, arm, clothing, background, etc. 2 faces with medium damage would be twice as much for art work as one face.

We charge for each print we print for the customer with quantity discounts off of the same image.

By charging this way the customer can choose what to have us do and what to not have us do and each thing that we are doing that is part of the process has value in the eyes of the customer. We can also discuss how large the customer might want to enlarge the photo, how they intend to use it (to preserve what the people looked like or perfect for framming ... ), and how much art work to do (yes, it is important to cll it "art work" and to give the option of doing less to save money when it might be appropriate).

To address your question, by charging this way you won't have the problem of the quantity feeling to low because the seperate scanning charges raises your base charge - and then lowers it appropriatly for quantity - without touching the art work charges which would be consistent with the amount of art work done no matter what the quantity was. Everyone iwll feel life they are being treated fairly.

You could also give a certificate for a free scan for each referral or a certain volume of work, without the scanning, if you did any promotions you would be cutting into your time (not that it doesn't take time to scan - but not as much time) and there will usually be art work and printing to come from the photos scanned free.

Hope this helps, Roger

If you are interested our price list, some samples, and some copy and restoration FAQ's are on our web site ...

www.eleakis.com

Roger

A solid approach to pricing might be to go at it as follows: First, decide what business you want to be in. For example wholesale doing business for established photographers and One Hour shops and Camera Stores or the alternative, going into retail, where you prepare a promotional plan to market your services directly to the public.

The next step would be to make up a list of the services that you intend to offer, for example retouching, restoration, scanning, traditional wet lab and/or digital printing, oil paintings, custom albums, conversions such as photo collections to DVD's etc. Try to be a little different so you can create something of a unique servicing niche for your area.

Next, remember that no one got up this morning just waiting for you to go into business - the buyers out there are all already going somewhere - so find out where and why. Get on the phone and "go shopping" and drive throughout your trade area to check what the other guy is doing and how much they are charging for the services you plan on offering.. Are you as good as they are ? Is there anything different that you can offer that will be something prospective clients would prefer or that perhaps isn't available in the trade area now?

Any "by the hour" system will not mean much when you are starting out, that's putting the cart before the horse - the price you can consistently get is all that matters and until you make up a price list of some kind, you may not even be sure what it is that you are trying to sell! Will your new price list work? That is determined by the market (willing buyers) and to find out exactly what that market is and where you can fit into is a very important part of startup planning if you want to be among the few that survive the first two years.

Jim Conway

Jim - ALL THUMBS UP - excellent advice!

$100 for 10 would not be too low for me. If that's how long it takes, then that's how much I charge. If customer 2 comes in and says, Customer 1 got 10 restores for $100 just explain that some are minor and restored very quickly and some are more difficult and therefore take longer and cost more. It's that simple. I also have brochures and business cards in my booth. The Brochures and signage explain this, the Business Card just tells them how to contact me.

My customers are quite satisfied even though many of you are not charging by the hour. I still cannot look at a photo and tell for sure how long it will take. I do try and give an estimate and write it on my iinvoice. If I run into a special problem and use the time I gave the client, I'll call them up and ask them what they want me to do.

I am a beginner in business so may be doing it all wrong. But plumbers and lawyers and car repairmen all charge me labor by the hour. That's where I got the idea.

I don't mind paying people by the hour, it seems fair one should be compensated for their labor.

I may add,
I do not have a web site

I do not do mail order

I cater to my community only and this is a very cheap place to live.

To get your hourly fee if you do that you need to add up your overhead and expenses such as rent, utilities, supplies paper ink, services, taxes & accounting, legal, brainstorm and make a list and get some quotes so you have a real idea..... add in what you think you're worth when the bills are paid and divide by how many hours you want to work. If you manage to stay busy, you'll pay the bills and there will be some leftover. If this is all you do and depend on it as your only source of income, you need to make sure you have some sort of retirement account and liability insurance factored in. God forbid you lose or damage a picture and get sued.

This is not my only source of income, but if it was, I could have a very humble existence doing this alone as my rent is $32.00 a month and the shop pays all of the utilities etc.... My husband provides my health ins.

I do purchase all of my own equipment with my income and buy my own 401k for old age.

It's a lot to think about and every one of us lives in a different area with different needs.

Some thoughts in no particular order:

Someone wrote about scanning, if more than 1, then the cost per each gets cheaper. WHY? takes about the same time for each (at least for me). Printing, where you can just send the image to the printer and tell it 5 instead of 1 maybe one could make sense of this, but my equipment does not do scans in that manner. When my daughter had twins, the doctor did not give her a break in the price because there where two in there:(

Some one wrote, this is not my only source of income. So why is that a reason not to make your business something that you could make a decent living at? This goes along with another comment I see that goes something like, I am just begning, do not really know what I am doing so I charge a very low price. So I suppose when you learn what you are doing you are going to raise your prices and tell your customers the reason you did raise them is because you now know what you are doing? So the work you did for them before is really not any good because you didn't know how to do it? Sounds like a real good way to install confidence in your customers :D

To me one of the more important things to do when starting up a business is to project a very professional manner. Of couse you know what you are doing! Your prices should reflect your percived skill level. If you have doubts about how to do something, come here and spill your doubts, ask your question, but never to the customer.

I think you should set your prices at a level that covers your expenses, provides you with a living wage, and if you have enough volume, could provide you with enough $ to be your only source of income. To do less is not only cheating yourself, but is not good for the industry as a whole.

Anyway, like I said, just some random thoughts to chew on.

Mike

Good points Mike! Even if someone intends their business to be nothing more than a sideline, there is no reason to assume that it should be anything less than "professional" in the approach to it.

When a business cannot match the workmanship of the local competition, it goes down the hard way and it's always the customer that loses regardless of the price that is paid for the work.

The learning curve will never end but you can be selective in the product lines you offer and limit it to what you can do (or outservice to people who are qualified).

Making a good living is a measure of success, so why would anyone want to assume failure at the start?

Jim Conway

Hi Mike, I am the scanning quantity culprit

Even when pricing by the hour I view what we are doing for the customer as a service, not as a strict charge for how long each step takes - as we get faster we make more per hour, when we stumble and fuss we make less per hour. Our individual scan price is high enough to allow for a discount for quantity - it is really based on our perception of what the customer will percieve of the value of our work structuring it the way we do - and when a customer brings us a quantity of work where we want to be able to say thank you - this way the customer feels there is some consideration for quantity.

We are seperating in the customers mind which parts of the process are more mechanical and which parts are a service that only we can provide the best because of our expertise (if our competition doesn't address an issue, and we do, we are seen as being more knowledgable and careful to give the best quality). By attaching optimization of the image to the scan we are adding our expertise so that it has a special value and is more difficult to compare to the competition.

Also we don't charge for quotes and consultations - the scanning surcharge actually pays for our consultation time, one consultation with multiple originals is a lot less time spent than with multiple customers with one original each.

So yes, from an hourly point of view we over charge for one scan - so that we can lower the price for quantity. Scanning is also a more mechanical process, if we want we can do all of the originals of the same same size and quality back to back to speed up our work flow.

Roger

Jim
Thank you, sometimes my thoughts do not get to the keyboard in quite the same form! You sum up my thoughts quite well.


Roger
I hope that you do not think that I was trying to pick you out and point fingers at you. The nice thing about these boards is the ability to really toss out ideas and thoughts and let others look, comment, etc. I perhaps do not exactly agree with all you say, but that does not make me anymore righter (new word there:) ) or wronger (2nd new word today!:D ) than you or anyone else.
Its the flow of ideas between all of us that counts.
I too give free consultations and quotes, altho my camera repair shop charges a fee for a quote, which is the applied to the cost of the repair if they do it. I am not really too sure if I could get away with that.
By the way I do not think you are the only one who give discounts for quantity........
Mike

Mike, I didn't take it bad at all! I think I am really trying to point out that the price list is a very valuable sales and marketing tool which can be approached from many different directions. None are wrong or right, just depends on you and your market. Everyone will find what they are comfortable - only trying to get all of the choices out on the table.

Roger

Hey Roger,

You have a beautifule web site. It's real fancy! It looks like you do both portraits and restorations and are very very talented in your profession.

I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes. Lil' ol me ain't gonna hurt any of you big fancy boys. I was real curious 'bout what you big city folks were doin' 'cause we don't know nothin' 'bout good business around here!

Looks like you're doin' mighty fine, maybe I might stick around and git me some learnin'.

Thanks Ya'll

Us city folks get this way ... we need some country around to keep us real ;)

Thanks for the compliments. You will never be stepping on my toes, I love to help, and being involved keeps my mind open and learning.

Glad to have you around, Roger

Roger,

In response to your invitation to check out your prices on your website, I did so and discovered that it would cost about $88 minimum for the least expensive scan+restoration+a 8x 10 print, assuming a new customer walked in with just one photo to be worked on that needed just minor retouching.

Do others out there charge this much??
Is this kind of pricing the going rate for business clients as opposed to non-business clients--i.e. people who are restoring pictures just for their personal use?

Perhaps this explains why you are getting so many clients who want just the scan and a print, with no restoration?

My feeling is that this kind of pricing is what motivates some customers to spend the money on a scanner, a cheap photo editing program and learn how to do restorations themselves. I am discovering that many customers have lots of potential pictures to fix up; some have an entire albums worth. But there is no way they are going to spend such large sums on just one photo. Many also seem to like to start out by giving just one picture to be done, so the few dollars off for volume scans is not much value.

I also worry that such high minimum prices are not good for the profession as a whole and create demand for things like the "Picture Perfect" Do it yourself photo restoration machine they just installed at my local Kinkos. For just $4.99 you can scan your photo yourself, crop it, add a sepia tone, remove any red eyes, improve the contrast a tiny bit and then print out your picture! Yes, thank G-d it's a clumsy, slow, and very cumbersome machine to use, but it may be enough for some people.

Shouldn't we all be sensitive to these issues so that we don't price ourselves out of business?

Sincerely,
Diane

Diane, In response to - "Shouldn't we all be sensitive to these issues so that we don't price ourselves out of business?" Sorry to jump in but you stopped me cold on this so, for what my two cents is worth.

... Facts! Like a good Lawyer, Doctor or Teacher that knows what they are doing, you are not going to price yourself out of business if you have the skills and talent! You can only price yourself into a higher grade of clients. Would you want a Lawyer that offers to work for you for $5.00 or $10.00 an hour when the good ones charge $400 or more? The better clients will be more likely to avoid you for charging too little! They equate low price with a lack of skill and professionalism and as most of us have learned the hard way, it's a rare case when that proves to be incorrect.

The problem in this profession (as I've stated often) is gross underpricing and not charging on a par with other professions that require like talents.

Jim Conway

I decided I'd catch up on this thread and I'm glad I did. A wealth of information is here. I have found that pricing is my weakest point in deciding how to structure my business. I have been winging it so far and still am not comfortable with what I have published. Making decissions on equipment and consumables was easy compared to how much to charge for my work. I don't want to charge too little and I don't want to charge too much. Deciding on just what those 2 limits are has been tough. It's going to take a lot more thought.

Diane, Jim said it perfectly, thanks Jim, I could not have said it better.

If you charge too little you will also price yourself our of business. Please understand that by nature I am a tweaker - I will go back and tweak a photo or recopy or copy on film and scan until I am 100% satisfied, and I don't call the customer back and try to charge more than I quoted, so jobs can take more time than what you might think. Some time and energy is often spent making sure it can't be made better. Knowing this about myself I charge accordingly.

I also know that to pay the overhead and take home a salery I need to charge $150 profit per hour. This may sound like a lot, but it is not when I subtract the number of hours each week that are not directly working on jobs: i.e. bookkeeping, marketing, business errands, etc. I work a 60 hour week as it is.

I used to be shy about charging, not being able to pay the bills occasionaly and having customers assume by their actions that I would be at their beck and call (because I was hungry enough to charge so little) slowly taught me as a matter of survival the value of insisting on mutual respect.

By the way, I have referred many customers to the Kodak Copy Station at Raley's accross the street, I don't see those different machines as low priced competition but as an added resource for our customers. I want our customers going their and to us, and I want them to be able to see the diference. I am even glad to help them figure out which ones we should do.

For me, it is not about the money - we don't provide a service to make money, money is a by-product of the service that we provide that allows us to live and be in business. This probably sounds stupid, but people are sensitive to sales - they know the difference - so we stay focused on what is best for the customer. Attitude is everything.

Kevin, there is nothing wrong with winging it! When you are done with a job, look at it and ask yourself what you think it is worth (not how much time you spent, but what it is worth). Make a note and then compare to what you charged. By this awareness I think you will find yourself slowly adjusting your system of pricing to something you are comfortable with. This will help with the too little or too much thing. A good rule of thumb is to charge on the high end of your comfort zone, then give additional stuff (not discounts) to good customers as a thank you.

Some thoughts to chew on...
Regards, Roger

Kevin

People don't really care how you arrive at the total, but they do need to feel that the quoting is consistent and that they are being treated fairly. I understand the uncertanty you are feeling, I have been there often. When decisions are hard it usually means there is a lack of information. I highly recommend you give this a try;

Take a job that you did with a before and after, come up with three different ways of charging that all add up to the same total (whatever you think you should get for the job), then show it to anyone you know who is the type of person you would like as a customer and write down their vote and their reasoning. From this you might arrive at a fourth way of doing it. They will give you valuable insight and you won't be left guessing.

When we designed our yellow page ad we asked our customers to vote on the different wordings and the photos used, it was priceless!

Roger

I'll see if I can shine some light on pricing here in a different way. Roger you and I are close in the amount we pick up from a "billable" hour. I'm usually at the $170 to 190 range but that has nothing to do directly with how the jobs are priced - it's an earned average. Like baseball, every job is not a home run!

Think like you have employees, how much would you have to pay them? Consider that even if you have no employees, you can still farm out the work instead of doing it yourself, so pricing a job still involves the same approach . Here's how it works ...

If someone comes in with a job that you know the market will not stand for more than $15.00 an hour and you can farm out the work for $8.50, you take the job and add to your income just like you would with a retail product markup. An example would be converting an 8 mm film to a CD or some simple scanning work. Visualize doing nothing but that type of work and you better find a fast easy way to do it or you'll starve! To make money, you'll have to increase your skill level just like you would to get a raise on any job and farm out the simple things.

Now move on to Job Two . It's a really complex retouching job where you know with your experience that you can excel head and shoulders over the competition - you charge "what the traffic will allow". If you know your competition's level of expertise, you'll know what jobs you can "bid" higher and still not lose. You have to gain a feel for the clients and what they want and can afford. As I've said before, my opening line is "Are you looking for Museum Quality work" - They know that isn't going to be like a Big Mac with a two minute turn around! We have a $139.50 minimum and, after a look at our exhibits, I've never had anyone walk out saying we charge too much for what we do! They want to buy from us - it's a matter of trust.

So now Job 3 comes along and the client wants an original restoration on a one of a kind collectors item that is worth $19,000+ (Yes it happens) So assuming your talents are now equal to the task, you take it with a fair price of 10% of the artifact value EVEN IF IT IS ONLY GOING TO TAKE YOU AN HOUR TO FIX IT! The reason is that you also took on the risk!

Now take all of these jobs together, none were price "by the hour" but I come out with an hourly average - and quite frankly when I put it up against my professor daughter, my attorney son or my youngest who is in sales - all making well over $120K. I'm sure I'm still underpricing.

Some people here might be confusing marketing and pricing. Bringing in the business is related to skills and talents and your ability to sell them. Pricing actually ends up being a result of your success at that. To go back to the ball game analogy I started with, one player does not ask for the same pay as all other players. We are not machines in this one size fits all world and that is the difference you have to hammer home to get the paid what you are worth.

Jim Conway

Jim :thumbsup:

Very well said!

I may be the one here confusing marketing with a price list, I have heard people describe marketing as a broad umbrella to include pr, ads, web site, donation of gift certificates, etc. Since our price list is published and the potential customer may see it before ever talking to us I have included the way it is structured (in my mind) as part of our marketing. Probably it is more acurately just a part of sales ...

Thanks for the wonderful explanations, Roger

I don't know about anyone else, but I really appreciate the advice Jim and Roger have offered. A lot more insight than I could have asked for. I've still got a lot more thinking to do about my pricing structure but you guys have given me ample guidelines to use. Now I just have to apply it. One thing I have to consider right now is that I still have a lot more tools to gather for my war chest. I do not consider myself an expert yet but that is my goal.

Thanks again.

Easy to classify Roger - "Marketing" is bringing the prospect or customer to the product . (your advertising ). "Merchandising" is bringing the product to the prospect or customer. (Sample books, exhibits, etc.)

Your "physical" price list may be high class enough to become a part of your marketing program however, my reference was to the prices that you charge . Using that as a marketing tool is not easy to do unless you are going for the bottom feeders with the lowest prices in town or always having your services on a liquidation sale.

Some might disagree but in building a reputation for quality, desire for the service should comes first, the prices then becomes secondary if they like what they see.

And Kevin, thanks - it's good to know that some are benefiting from the discussions - makes it worth the time here.


Jim Conway

I'll second that thanks to Roger & Jim. I've been reading and re-reading every word. What a goldmine of business wisdom! I really appreciate the time you've taken out of your busy schedules for this discussion. :bigthmb:

Jeanie

Thanks Jeanie & Kevin!

Hanging around here keeps me learning, reminds me of what I don't know, and it is fun to share what I do know (or think I know). I don't know what it is that I don't know, you know?

Thanks, Roger

I guess I have a hard time with the price thing myself. I am in many respects a beginner at this. But I am good and I know it. And so does everyone who I have done work for. I know my work is worth ALOT more than I charge. But my issue here is that the area I live in is very small and very poor for the most part. I am so conflicted. On the one hand I want for every person here to be able to afford this renewal of their past. On the other hand, I certinaly would LOVE to be able to get the business of the folks who can actually afford to pay what I should be charging. But if I charge low enough for everyone to afford it then I can never get the amount I SHOULD get. I can't charge Mr. Moneybags more than I charged Ms. Bankrupt just because he can afford it. UGH. I love doing this work, though. And I want to continue doing it. I think otherwise I would just give up...

What's a girl to do?

Reply to STLITE. Mississippi huh? I empathize wholeheartedly. I live in northcentral Arkansas. We have many of the same problems you mentioned in your post. Charging is not my forte either. Here is the solution I have adopted, albeit faulty. I calculated what it costs me in material, averaged it over x amount of jobs. (Such as I can print x amount of pictures on one ink container and that costs x amount. Each page costs x amount and so forth.) Then I added minimum wage per hour for the total restoration package cost. I know that isn't much, but in the poverty stricken south, it is more than enough for most. Those who are demanding or ugly or expect it for free, I charge MORE. If I tell them the "Pros" have a higher rate and show them those prices as listed on the internet and such, they usually go for my business. Economics, economics, economics! What's a girl to do? :)

istlite,

The community we live in is doing much better so I may not be the right one to answer, but I have a nagging feeeling here, but it is late at night and I am pooped ... so stay with me.

You need some sort of system that gives you the perception of having the value that you have, with a way of giving the discounts that you want to give - because you want to do the work and not alienate the majority of your customers. so, I am just brainstorming but maybe something like this ...

- Charge the rates you want to charge
- Have a special 'hard times and hustlin' (or whatever else you might want to call it) rate which comes with some limitations, like a longer turn around as you work between full paying jobs, and possibly no finished prints - delivered on CD only as this has a lower cost to you. Or maybe a rough fix as quality is in the details - we spend eighty percent of our time on the last 20 percent of the work ... Or maybe only take one job at a time and spread it out a little so that the people that want it cheap feel like you understand their situation and you are worth more, but are doing them a favor. In any case always quote longer than what it takes you and give them regular updates.

I think what I am trying to say is that if you want to have a higher value you need to demand respect - in a nice way.

If you get in the habit of assuming that all of your customers are having severe financial hardships then the ones that would be comfortable payng your full price will slip in at the lower price and you will never know .... ;( ... or they may go elsewhere in search of someone who charges more because it is too cheap. Sorry to scare you but this is as true a risk as not getting the business from those that have a hard time affording it.

I just took in a big job today in which I gave a big discount for quantity. The 100 original, scan, globaly optimize and save to CD. We charge for scanning and output separately - so we had the leverage - the customer got a great deal and we are well paid for our time, If you are curious - and maybe you might like a couple of our ideas, our price list is here > http://www.eleakis.com/Copy/copy_price_082004.htm

Good Luck,
Roger

When I quote a price it is for a "normal" turn around time. Now that time will change depending on the size and complexity of the job but is usually something like a few days to a week or whatever.

When I am talking to customers I question them about the amount of photos they might have and if the family has more etc etc. I suggest to them that they all get together, decide which photos to do, how many copies they need (usually one per family), then bring them all in at one time, there is a savings in bulk. There is also a savings if they are not in a hurry, for then the job becomes what I call a gap filler, which means I will work on it when everything else is done, but as soon as another job comes in, the gap filler goes back on the shelf. I do promise them that the job will be done by a certain date, but that date might be 6 months or so down the road.

Had one really large job (300 orginals) that took about 14 months to do that way. I still made money, they saved some, everyone was happy!

To do this you need to have an absolute bottom price that you will not go below. We explain the cost difference between the regular cost and this one by emphasising the amount (it has to be a big job) and the time they will have to wait for the finished product.

So far it has worked for us.

Mike

I'm just starting my photo restoration business, but based on past experience in the business world, it's really important to value your work and time appropriately. Many people underestimate themselves and wonder why they aren't making enough/more money. A great book on this subject is:

Secrets of Six-Figure Women: Surprising Strategies to Up Your Earnings and Change Your Life by Barbara Stanny

This great book isn't just for women, but for everyone who wants to make a decent living! There's many great stories about people who own their own business but wonder why they're not making the money they thought they would. In many cases people weren't charging enough for their services when the market would bear much more. Once they changed their pricing they were making much more money and doing less work! :bigthmb:

Also, the perception that the really talented people are worth more is very true. People are willing to pay for quality. If you charge below market prices people will wonder why. Is your quality not good? Are you desperate? Even if you are desperate, it's important not to appear that way.

Lastly, many times customers that argue over prices are the ones who will end up not being profitable customers for you. Successful businesses don't keep doing business with customers that they're losing money on.

Just my 2 cents for today!

Karen

Roger,
I know what you mean. I looked at your site a while back, and I must say I am in awe. lol Of course your work is great, but your prices. Oh I woudl love to be able to make that amount. But I know I am being realistic when I say there is no way that is going to happen as long as my customers are local folks. Even if I were getting regular business from Mr. Moneybags, folks here are cheap no matter how much money they have. lol And seriously most of them do not have much.

Of course I too am just starting out here. And I hope one day to be able to do more, but I am pretty comfortable with things now. I have two small children that I am at home with so right now any work I get is about all I can handle. Thats is a great idea about the lower rates for longer turn around. Then maybe I can get more sleep - lol. Thanks much!

Dawn

istlite,

You are very welcome - glad to brainstorm more and as needed - keep us posted how you are doing.

Great ideas from Karen, Janet and Mike also!

Roger

It seems bad form and at the least unethical to discuss client rates and charges amongst fellow proffesionals. The DIA gives strict guidelines on such discussions and clearly comes down on the side of non-discussion.

In most European countries, America (most states) and Australasia it is illegal to discuss prices with what can be considered your competition.

Even if it is difficult to prove illegality it is certainly unethical to discuss prices - it is tantamount to agreeing how much you can skin clients for in any given job. Can I get away with more? What would you charge? All unethical questions between industry pro's.

Price dicussions also leads to the denegration of the designer in the eyes of the client. If a client can say to designer A that designer B says he can do it for X amount less, therefore I am not going to pay more than that.. Not a good situation.

There is a simple formula for working how much you should charge, not my own creation:

Overhead + Profit Rate + Salary / Monthly Billable Hours = Hourly Rate.

e.g:

£3600 in overhead (bills, rental costs, advertising, office supplies, staff salaries)
£4000 in salary (what you pay yourself)
£1000 in profit (beer money)
172 billable hours per month (8 hours per day, 5 days per week x 4.3 weeks - if you're not confident of getting this amount of work per month, then adjust accordingly)

£3600 + £4000 + £1000 / 172 = £50 per hour

Funnily enough this is a copy and paste from another forum I visited today and had reason to give the same response.

That said a clear description of your hourly rates or charging policy can't be considered bad on a website or literature. I don't want to appear to be the pricing police, just some things to be taken into consideration.

Hi Mike,

OK, anti-trust came from companies who had collective control of the industry. Collective control of an industry is unethical. If we as a group were to agree on prices that we all agreed to charge, then that would be unethical.

If we as a group were to decide and agree on a false high price in order to gouge the customer - all of the other folks who aren't part of this group - or those that are that take advantage of the artificially high prices and charge less on the sly - or out of the country competition would come in and teach us a lesson. Thus the spirit of the reason for the anti-trust rules, will in my opinion, never apply to large extremly diverse groups like ours.

In fact, in terms of survival, sharing business ideas is a very positive thing. In this community like many others, we don't have large companies looking to price fix, but retouching professional who are business amatuers. For the folks figuring out how to make a busines of retouching, sharing business ideas so that each individual can work out what is best for them, means having a greater pool of ideas from which to make decisions, making for more informed decisions. People talk about the number of businesses that fail each year. It is nice to help these folks have a chance at staying in business.

I realize my opinion might not be the conventional wisdom because of the cultural history of price fixing, but in these different circumstances it is the way I see things.

Roger

I wanted to add that the reason I posted the previous post was not to argue the ethics of discussing prices. We can agree to disagree or whatever and it is fine with me.

The reason I posted it was I didn't want anyone that had participated in the discussions on pricing to feel embarassed that they were being unethical - just to let those folks know that there are other opinions out there and not to feel like they have to agree (can if they want to ;) )

Thanks,
Roger

Discussing price here is certainly not illegal unless someone has what it takes to show (in a court of law) that it has lead to "price fixing" in the industry that is causing major harm to the public.

That is likely to happen about the same time we have enough clout as a group to call Bill Gates and demand a reduction on our Windows software costs! I know this is not as gentle a response as Roger's but as everyone here already knows, I'd rather stick to the facts.

An opinion you might not share but the name of the game for most of us is to try and stay in business - cutting off any conversation that aids the effort with the idea that it is unethical to talk about the most critical component of that effort is pure nonsense that cannot be supported.

Jim Conway

I should have offered an example of "price fixing" so others here would have a better take on what is actually involved and not be confused over when "discussing prices" is and is not ethical.

Lets suppose that the Smithsonian has a rare Dag they want restored and there are only three people in the world that can do that type of work - Me - Doug and Roger. The Smithsonian calls the three of us for bids. I am not suppose to talk to Doug or Roger before I put in my bid but I ignore that fact. I give them both a call and say Hey Guys I want this one so if you will kick up your bids by at least 80% so I get the job, I'll do the same on the next one and Roger can go low. That is the type of price discussions that are not ethical nor are they allowed by law. As you can see, you have to be a industry powerhouse to even be accused of it and no one in the retouching business has sufficient market share to even be considered!

Equally misunderstood based on what you hear from the media about the Vice President's former company is "sole source" contracting. A firm is selected because they are the only ones capable of doing a job, or if not the only one capable, the only one willing to bid at the time the job is available. I've had sole source government contracts and can tell you from experience, the critics don't produce facts to back their damnation of the practice as being unethical , they just complain about it. In effect most of you are sole-source contractors. Your clients are not going to call up Roger, Doug or Jim Conway to get a bid so we can't "fix prices".

Let me say again, discussing pricing, marketing, merchandising or anything else that can help each other survive is healthy for this industry. It is not unethical and it is the primary reason for the organization of every professional association in the world. Sorry I said the ethics issue was nonsense when I should have explained more fully. Guess I've been listening to many politicians who go for the slam dunk in a one liner!

Jim Conway
Timemark Photo Conservators

Glad to see that this type of discussion is still going on here. Sorry I've been gone so long but I've been very busy. I still have too many balls in the air but it's managable.

What I have found on pricing is that I try and charge for the creative and restoration work at what ever I think it is really worth. I keep the price for reprints very low. This usually ends up making the final price much better.

I still have problems asking for what I think the work is really worth. My online pricing serves as a portable price list for me so that I can remember how much to charge.

Hi, folks ... I was following this site for many months in 2003, because I absolutely must generate some income to pay the rent!

However, life intervened about this time last year (a hurried and traumatic move), so it went on hold for a bit ...

Then, when things had settled down slightly and I was about to take up the project once again, I got sidetracked into a different enterprise, which has so far been a waste of time and energy.

So I am back here again, hoping to get something going quickly and at least tide us over for a while. What I am most uncomfortable about is pricing, and after reading this thread all the way through, I still don't know just what to do.

To give myself an idea, I wonder if some of you could take a few minutes to look at the four samples I put up on

http://www.wecanfixyouroldpix.com/

... and let me know how much you would charge (a ballpark figure of course) for each one, assuming I do the scanning and I deliver a CDROM plus one 4x6 print from the local pro lab up the street (or from the Kodak machine in the CVS!). Buyer pays shipping and insurance both ways, of course.

Ask me any questions you like, 'cuz I really have to know how to proceed!

And ... Thanks!

Hello Bill,

Your work certainly looks professional. Pricing seems to be the thing most people have the most trouble with. Is it possible for you to check around your area to see what others are charging for this type of work? I'm not talking about Walgreen's or any other "Any restoration for $39.99", but other businesses that do quality work. That would probably give you a better starting point than you would get from a forum where there are people from all over the world. Good luck in your endeavor.

Ed

Your work is nice and professional you should be able to charge up to the standards of the market you're in.

I've noticed a lot of the working pros charge a flat rate based on how they perceive the difficulty of the particular job. For instance a simple cleanup is $xx.00, a moderately damaged original is $xx.00 and major reconstruction is $xxx.00. They have an idea of what they need to make hourly but don't formally track their time.

That's kind of how I do it but I quote an hourly rate ($75.00 per) and a time estimate; I try to stick with the quote even if my time goes well over but I still have flexibility to go ahead and charge actual if a customer gets difficult. If I see that I seriously underestimated, I give the customer a call and let them know.
This time of year we're doing $500 to $1200 a week just on restorations. the rest of the year we do that in a little more than a month. Our primary business is graphic design, photography and digital imaging.

Chip

When a client asks, "How much does it cost?" I reply with, "How much ya got?"

Seriously though, if discussing price was unethical, the GAG would not have published their pricing guidelines.

I usually charge by the job based on a set hourly rate. I always give my client an estimate and try to stick to it.

When a client asks, "How much does it cost?" I reply with, "How much ya got?"

Seriously though, if discussing price was unethical, the GAG would not have published their pricing guidelines.

I usually charge by the job based on a set hourly rate. I always give my client an estimate and try to stick to it.

LOL! Actually, I tried to get my client (the only paying one I've had so far) to set his own price -- after my expenses -- on my last job for him.

He essentially said "Come on, give me a PRICE", so I did. It certainly wasn't based on the time I'd spent on the projects (or I'd be charging less than minimum wage!). Wasn't pulled out of a hat, exactly, either. Basically, I guesstimated what the traffic would bear, and that seemed to work out fine.

(So as not to be coy, I charged about $245 for a composite of two headshots taken under very different conditions, plus a blowup and cleanup (to the extent possible) of a small inkjet printed copy of an old photo. That plus about $55 in expenses, totalling $300.)

However, I know for sure that approach won't work in the long run. I'm thinking of stating an entirely arbitrary hourly rate, but quoting based on how hard I think it will be rather than on how long I think it will take, since I can judge the difficulty (usually) more easily than the time.

And I will stick by my quote unless (a) it turns out easier than I'd thought; (b) my estimate was grossly low; or (c) my estimate was under, plus the client turns out to be a PITA!

Does that make any kind of sense? If so, I now have to figure out what the pseudo-"hourly" rate will be, just to have something to start from ...

Thoughts on this?

LOL! Actually, I tried to get my client (the only paying one I've had so far) to set his own price -- after my expenses -- on my last job for him.

He essentially said "Come on, give me a PRICE", so I did. It certainly wasn't based on the time I'd spent on the projects (or I'd be charging less than minimum wage!). Wasn't pulled out of a hat, exactly, either. Basically, I guesstimated what the traffic would bear, and that seemed to work out fine.

(So as not to be coy, I charged about $245 for a composite of two headshots taken under very different conditions, plus a blowup and cleanup (to the extent possible) of a small inkjet printed copy of an old photo. That plus about $55 in expenses, totalling $300.)

However, I know for sure that approach won't work in the long run. I'm thinking of stating an entirely arbitrary hourly rate, but quoting based on how hard I think it will be rather than on how long I think it will take, since I can judge the difficulty (usually) more easily than the time.

And I will stick by my quote unless (a) it turns out easier than I'd thought; (b) my estimate was grossly low; or (c) my estimate was under, plus the client turns out to be a PITA!

Does that make any kind of sense? If so, I now have to figure out what the pseudo-"hourly" rate will be, just to have something to start from ...

Thoughts on this?

I usually assume that the harder it is, the longer it will take.

If you give a quote, I think you should stick by it. If the job is easier, then its gravy in your pocket, but if you have underbid, then you eat it. Kind of works out in the long run, and tells you you should learn to estimate better....

PITA clients come with dealing with the public. If I detect them early enough, then the bid goes up, hopefully enough to either make it worth while to deal with them, or to encourge them to go elsewhere.

Mike

There's no answer there representing me. I offer flatrate grading and per hour work, depending on what the client prefers.

It all works out to $25/hr CAD.

I also "charge by the job". I charge per 5 minute increment and have a minimum charge of $10.00 or 10 minutes of work. Most retail work is around $20.00. I also offer wholesale pricing for resellers. Most of that work is portrait retouch for my minimum fee of $7.50 per image. I also charge for placing on CD, prints and any shipping. There is no additonal fee for placing images on FTP or emailing finished projects.