I joined this site a few months ago to try and improve my skills with a goal of being able to make some small living from it. Prior to finding Retouch Pro, I thought that I was ready to go, but a little tour of people's work here convinced me that I had a long way to go.

So, its not all that I hoped for and I think it is in part due to a lack of consideration for other peoples work by the membership at large.

Specifically regarding the Critique forum. Take a moment to scan the summary page and compare the number of views to the number of comments. Here's some sample numbers: 126/2, 180/3, 134/6 and so forth. My last post here I had 126 viewers but Swampy was the only person that took the time to leave a critique!

I say that this is not in the spirit of the website in general and certainly not the forum.

What's the issue?

Am I beyond hope and therefore unworthy? Well, the problem seems more widespread than me.

Uninteresting material? I do think that I see a bias in the membership towards enhancement vs restoration. If so, let's split the critique area into a couple topics like Enhancement/Alteration, Restoration, Photo Art.

Social/Interpersonal issues?

I don't know. Give me some feedback.

If you feel the same as me, say so.

The choice to post a critique or not is the perogative of every member, and the fact that they choose not to is no one's concern but theirs.

They may have a number of reasons for not posting. They may not feel qualified to comment on a particular piece of work. They may not want to disillusion a member by harsh comment. They may not have an opinion. They may not have the time available to comment.

In short, just because you have posted something for critique, there is no reason to suppose that everyone who views your work should feel obliged to comment.

Some pieces attract lots of criticisms (both favourable and unfavourable), some do not. I have been here quite some time now, and still haven't been able to work out why. Don't take it personally, no one is trying to slight you by not commenting.

You also comment on a bias towards enhancement over restoration. Well I've seen it swing between both. You've only been a member since April, so I don't think you've been here long enough to see how things change between the various disciplines. Stick around, you'll find they do.

I never meant to imply that everyone should comment on every photo that they view in the critique forum.

From my point - I don't reply if I do not have something constructive to say and often what I would say has already been said by others so there would be little point. It can also depend on how the request is phrased. You should also remember that for many of us there is time difference and many people don't visit the forum every day and at this time of the year many people in the northern hemisphere are on vacation.

Christine

Bluedog,

I have seen that too, and while it's unfortunate, it's the way of any forum. I have seen cliques (not necessarily here) that usually just comment on 'their friends stuff', and images that were just too boring to comment on, or it wasn't to the viewer's liking, or people's schedules... The deal is, not to take it like they aren't interested in what you do, and although they may not be all of the time, it sure may seem like it. Complaining won't make it any better, this is human nature, you can't change that.
I have seen a LOT of things like this, and similar in all of the forums I visit, I am a member to forums like this one, and sculpting, and art, and also bike forums, and if you think this is bad, you need to go and hang out on forums that have way more bad things going on there than this one. This is a laid-back atmosphere here, and for the most part, people are as nice as can be, and if they aren't, someone will (usually) politely let them know they are out of line.
I know that I post in a sculpting forum, and I swear up and down they must hate me, 'cause a lot of the time when I post, that's the end of that post, and it has made me feel odd at times, but I know that I didn't do anything, it was just timing, that post had evidently run it's course, and not the 'kiss of death'. (I hope!) :)
(This is in just one of the folders, the other folders I get answers, or replies)
Anyway, it may be in how you word your post, too little information, they might not feel inclined, too involved, same thing.
It's just human nature, and although I haven't taken the time to go and look what you have written in posts previous to this, I don't know your demeanor, but if it's good, then I wouldn't worry, and make sure that your images are large enough, (not too large) and your information is what they'd need to do what you hope they will.

I hope this helps some... Gary was dead-on with his reply to you.

Randy

Blue Dog

Don't know if my private message of last week got to you or not. I've been having problems accessing some of the features of the forum (Server quit responding error message, whatever that means?)

Gary is right and hit 99% of the reasons that I may look but not respond. Nothing personal toward you or any other forum member.

but I stuck my neck out by posting this greivance, so there's no point in letting everyone duck the issue so easily.

Vacations and time-zones don't cut it with me. Remember, were talking about the 125 viewers who didn't comment, not the unknown thousands that didn't look.

"Don't have the time" again, BS. You had plenty of time to look at all the postings, just no time to comment on it.

I do understand that its human nature, and I do understand that its a personal perogative, and that is the very thing that I am commenting on. Remember I said "lack of consideration for other members".

Where is personal integrity? You belong to a website that perhaps is written somewhere, perhaps not, espouses communication, exhange of ideas and knowledge, and perhaps even a little Camaraderie and friendship.

Example: When I critique a piece, and I am by no means well qualified to do so, I do not read everyone elses comments first. Why is that? Being a beginner, I'm sticking my neck out there risking to sound foulish or show my ignorance.

Some days I don't have the time or inclination to look at the critiques postings and I don't. So, I am amoungst the thousands that didn't look at all not the 100+ that did. Personally, I probably comment on 3 of 10 pieces that I look at. I don't comment on the ones that have truly run the gamet; the ones with issues that are beyond my reach and, occassionaly, one that just doesn't appeal to me. On the other hand, if I view one that only has one or two comments then I am more likely to enter a comment myself. Even if it only says "... I agree with <Gary>. Nice job." , well that IS an input.

Well, unless someone wants to come forward and confess some personal distaste for me, I think this thread has served its purpose. "You can't measure something without changing it"? The Hiesenburg Uncertainty Principle. That pretty much works for just poking at something too. :rolleyes:

It may have run it's course, but, I do want to tell you what I thought when I saw your post about the "head replacement".
I saw what I thought was a good job on what you did, and I didn't know who you were at all, or how good you were either. I didn't see any room for me to go in there and say, "Great job!", 'cause that is one thing that 'can, (not always) perturb me a little 'cause I see so much of that in other forums, so I just don't so it any longer. I 'assumed', (I know, I know) that someone would come along and say it, or, give you something that you were looking for in a critique, I didn't have anything constructive to say, so I just didn't. I definitely didn't mean anything at all by not responding, and I won't let it bother me in thinking I was wrong if I didn't. (I'm not saying you did that) I personally have days (I work from home) that I can leave LONG critiques, or responses that hopefully help someone, I rarely every say anything other than that, and I am one of the kind of people that love helping others, in any way I possibly can, but only when I have time.
(Sometimes after I make a post, nobody responds too, and although in a perfect world, I'd like them too, but I have to realize what they 'might be' doing too)

Just for the record, I didn't look at any other posts that you may have posted, just the 'head change'.

As far as it being "B.S". about people not commenting when there is a certain amount of viewings, that doesn't mean one thing. There's way too many variables in each post, there's not much one can do about it at all either, I don't think, we can't force the way others think, or what they do with the 'spare time'.

Hey, I ain't hatin', I'm just sayin', there's just too much going on that we can in no way understand how people react when most are either at work, or asleep, or on a Saturday morning, most forums I am a member of are a LOT busier on Sunday mornings, but during the week and Saturdays, they're a lot slower. I see some people post, "How come nobody's answered my question yet?", and it's only been 15 or so minutes, they evidently don't realize all of the above, or take it into consideration.
If it's any consolation, I do know how that feels, but maybe it's just the nature of the image, or time of posting, or even 'bad luck'.

Randy

welcome to the world of apathy, fear and 'i'm not good enough'. i've posted pieces, stills, animated and slide shows that i thought, 'boy, this'll knock their socks off'. a month later, 3 posts and 300 views. all you have to do to understand some of this is look at the bottom of the main forum list. down there is how many folks are logged in as members and how many are 'guests'. the ratio is often over 1 to 100 and typically more like 1 to 200 or 300. every guest that views, though not logged in, i believe counts in the views total. also, a number of folks will repeat views. heck, i've gone in and looked at my own pieces 5 or 6 times sometimes. you also have to take into account that a LOT of those 'guests' are bots, spiders, coming from google, yahoo and other search engines that monitor and record the internet. there was a thread on this a while back and i forget how many spiders were logged in at one time, but it surprised me when i found out.

also, i look at the critique forum every day. i actually purposely dont post there as often as i might. i REALLY dont want to be known as a critic. all too often that 'critic' label is one that is known as 'someone who cant do the work; they can only criticize other's work' and that's just not what i want to be. so, when i do post there i try to be a teacher rather than a critic.

as for 'personal integrity', you seem to assume we're being paid here or something. it is NO ONE'S duty here to post anything. nobody's! so, get off your high horse on that one. if you want 'duty' go to an art school where it is the teacher's duty to comment, help, criticize and promote. you are getting here, whatever you get, for free. it's is NO ONE'S duty to do any of this for free. this isnt art school, son. you arent paying anyone for their time.

now, if you'd like, you can send me a nice, large, cash sum and we'll see about fixing you up :) heck, if you make it large enough, i might even put you up in a dirty garage for a couple of weeks and give you a bit of personal tutoring ;)

now, i do understand the frustration. like i said, i've posted things and see 300 views and only a few posts. there are some days i think it's only me, mitch, palms, steve, lkroll and patricia that are doing anything in the art forums and it would be nice to get some feedback from non-artists. talk about a clique :)

anyways, just remember, nobody is obligated to critique your work. this is a peer to peer site. everyone who does is a volunteer.

oh, and one last reason for not critiquing i find myself thinking every once in a while. sometimes you'll notice that it just goes in one ear and out the other. how do you tell? they post, you remark, they go, 'yes, but....' and you know they didnt get it.

craig

Where is personal integrity? You belong to a website that perhaps is written somewhere, perhaps not, espouses communication, exhange of ideas and knowledge, and perhaps even a little Camaraderie and friendship.

I wouldn't be bring up people's personal integrity, Blue Dog. Has nothing to do with why people don't respond to a thread or question on this forum (or any other for that matter).

I think most folks click on the "new posts" link, browse through items that might be of interest or in their area of expertise, read a little then decide if they want to respond or not. I do respond when I have something to add if not, I move on. Nothing PERSONAL in that. I'm not snubbing you or anyone else when I exit that post and move on to the next without chiming in.

Please don't think that just because you are a member of this forum that you are ENTITLED to responses. Be glad when someone takes the time to do so, but don't complain when they don't.

Be glad when someone takes the time to do so, but don't complain when they don't.

I could've saved myself a whole lot of typing if I would've just said that, 'cause that's what I kind'a meant, and feel! heheheh

Thanks Swampy!

Randy

Personally, I probably comment on 3 of 10 pieces that I look at. I don't comment on the ones that have truly run the gamet; the ones with issues that are beyond my reach and, occassionaly, one that just doesn't appeal to me.
And so you have answered your own question.

After admitting this, your position seems somewhat hypocritical. Because, according to your own arguments, you are being completely inconsiderate of those other seven people. You viewed, but didn't post. But you had your reasons (no matter what they were) for not posting. And so does everyone else. It's not something to be taken personally.

The irony of this whole thread is that you were worried that people may not like you, yet you've potentially distanced yourself from those very same people. Fortunately, everyone I've seen here at RetouchPro have been nothing but kind, considerate, and professional in their manner. I'm sure none of them will take your comments personally, and that they will be more than willing to contribute and help when and where they can.

Just something to think about.

--Racc

Being that you are the only person that responded to either of my last two posts to the critique forum, I hate to even disagree with you a little bit . You are also amongst a handful of people who has joined in this discussion. Why, I think you really do like to help people. Of course, I am stating the obvious. All I can saw is that you are the very last person that I am addressing here.

By the way, I thank everyone who has taken the time to participate in this discussion. Now, on with the argument...

It is about personal integrity. People react to that phase as if I said something about their Mother! I challenge you (the generic you's out there) to this: How often have you heard the words "Honor" and "Integrity" used in the same sentence. Do you know the difference? So how can your response be as if it were a personal afront?

If you take, you should give back. If you came here a little less informed than you are now or without a couple new tools in your arsenal, then you have benefitted and you owe something to the idea or person or organization that helped you be better. That's the fuel that volunteer forums run on.

I have stated my opinion. There is no point in me elaborating more. I thank you for the opportunity to voice my observation and suggest that we could be better ourselves.

No hard feelings, honest. :classic:

After admitting this, your position seems somewhat hypocritical. Because, according to your own arguments, you are being completely inconsiderate of those other seven people.

Really? If every viewer left an input an average of 3 out of 10 times that they viewed a request for a critique, then every request would get 30 responses for every 100 views. Then, we'd have to argue to only leave response that has something unique to offer. I think we may not see that day soon.

Bye. Really. :classic:

Dog,

if you want to leave, nobody will hold you back, it's your choice.

On the other hand, you should really think about what people do and why a bit more.

I go to RetouchPRO every single day, most of the time twice or more. I use the new posts link and read through the subjects. When I think something could be of interest or I could contribute something useful I go to that topic. And if there is something to say, I do say it.

To give you an example on your specific post, the head-thing, I simply didn't care. Head-replacement is pretty obviously a restauration thing and I'm not into this stuff, so I'm not interested. Do you read everything you are not interested in? Besides that, as I lack the experience in restauration I could hardly give any advice.

Seriously pal, there are dozens of posts every day, do you except me to carefully read through all of them?

And even more, if I cannot say anything but "it's well done in my eyes" I don't post anything. My ~300 posts were always cra...err wellworthy information to the readers and no hundreds of "well done"-posts. Consider them a waste of time.

Anyway, if 200 viewers don't have any critism it means the image is good, isn't it so? So what do you complain about?

Edit: I just, for curiousity, looked through all your postings:

First Whole Head Replacement: 1 answer, 98 views
An Exercise in Subtlety: 1, 133
Japanese Girls: 8,804
OK. Let me have it!: 8,403
First Try at Make-up: 14,666

It's not sooo bad, is it?

Really?

Yes, really. By your own admission you only post a response 30% of the time. That means 70% of the time you don't contribute to posts you've viewed, either, and for the same reasons as everyone else!

The hypocrisy is that you are berating this entire community for doing what YOU have admitted to doing MOST of the time, yourself... viewing a thread and then moving along without posting a reply.

You are trying to learn your craft for free by picking the brains and experience of all those that frequent this forum. You should respect that everyone here contributes what they can when they can of their own free will. They contribute according to their interests, time, and their desire to share. So to imply that everyone is not posting often enough or with enough quality to train you for free in your chosen career just comes across as ungrateful for the help you do get. As others have said, no one here is obligated to educate you.

--Racc

I am just leaving the discussion. I felt like blowing off some steam. OK? If I were mad enough to leave I wouldn't bother discussing it. Boy, text is tough! A poorly chosen word here...another there...., :normal:

As I said. Thanx for the discussion. No hard feelings. Subject over. Not going anywere. :thumbsup:

Subject over. Not going anywere.

You mean its not going in a direction you want, so you'll take your bat and ball home.

OK so nobody seems to agree with your point of view, maybe that's telling you something, if not it should be.

This is not a personal attack on you, merely a disagreement with the point of view you originally espoused.

Interesting that no-one mentioned this: (or I didnt see it mentioned)

Currently Active Users: 305 (10 members and 295 guests)

Right now, only 1/30th of the people online who can view a post could actually post a response anyway.

You say not having time is BS? What delisional planet are you living on? I frequently view a post, and think about replying but I'm a busy woman, I might be looking at it while I'm in the middle of something or just about to go to bed. If I feel really strongly about something, maybe I can make the time but usually not.
Writing a good, well thought out post takes time, especially when critiquing - a lot longer than it takes just to view the post.

Also, very little point repeating what others have said, if I see an image up for critique I might take the time to look at it and do a critique in my head but then when I look at the replies, everything I saw has already been commented on, so no point in repeating.

NancyJ has hit on a valid point I think. I did not know that visitors could view but not post. Why would such a large number of people choose to do that??

Gary. Its not that the discussion wasn't going my way ( it isn't), or that the outcome isn't what I expected (it is), its just that, prior to NancyJ's input, I had the impression that both sides had been fully stated, no one was going to change their minds, and things would probably remain as is. What I said about the problem with getting just the right words is that everyone seems to think that I am much more upset than I am. I am frustrated, but not irrate by any means. I simply felt that there was a broad-based injustice, not a personal affront, that needed to be pointed out.

Its like going to a restaurant and leaving mad or seriously disappointed. If you don't tell the manager, what have you really accomplished by just stomping out? I assure you that he would rather know now while he still has a chance to do something about it. I left the ranks of the timid non-complaining majority a long time ago.

Actually, I am pleased with the turn-out. If you boil down the defense, I mostly heard that its normal, it happends to everyone, and I shouldn't take it personally. I may have taken it a bit too personal before, but I won't from now on.

Let me finish what I've got to say and then go on. The two most valuable things about this site for me is the Critique and the Help forums. I don't put something up for critique because I am showing off, I do it because I am very uncertain of (1) my skills and (2) the performance (?) threshold of the industry (ies). I really need to learn what is acceptable and what is sub-par. I also really need to develop a sense of when something is done vs over-done, a case that many of you argue all the time.

Example: Take "An exercise in subtilty" I really liked what I had but could not decide if I should stop or do more. What I really wasn't expecting was Swampy's response that cited some fundamental problems that I did not recognize and, frankly, do not really know how to go about fixing. That is a really valuable lesson for me.
:pleased:

So please - everyone - go back to work and let this pass. I am content. :)