Hi all, I'm a long (ish) time reader of this forum... and have picked up some great info' from you guys, so thanks for that!

my question is specifically concerning a common approach to tonality of fashion images. I'm a photographer myself and have been hunting for the "missing element" in my images for a while.. and think this might help me grately.

So here's the kind of thing I'm looking towards, again I'm talking about the tone/colour/contrast etc.
http://bwgreyscale.com/edits09/desertobianco_bwtblb05.JPG
http://bwgreyscale.com/edits09/altobordo_bwdbgg15.JPG
http://bwgreyscale.com/edits09/playtime_bwrbrd03.JPG
http://bwgreyscale.com/edits09/luckystar_bwglebjf08.JPG

strangely enough all these images have a loose tie, in the sense that the tonality of the images have a similar, muted/partially desaturated appearance.

In Photoshop I have added grain, used warming filters and partial desaturation. But achieving these types of colours is not down to a simple partial desaturation. I'm sure a selective colour correction is employed somewhere, but this is where I get lost.

How can I mute the colours like my example images? because I know from my own work that these colours do no come out of the camera, regardless of digital capture type or film stock.

thanks in advance, Ben

For the most part, they all look like they're about 1 stop underexposed to me -- not necessarily desaturated. This can be verified by examining the histograms too. Have you tried that?

Thanks for the suggestion lonnie, but i'm sure it's a certain set of colour adjustments done in PS.... I say this because I have been lucky enough to work for some big fashion photographers.. and I know the way they like to expose their images.... What I've never been able to see is what happens after the shutter goes click! If anything images are deliberately overexposed (ever so slightly), though not so much with digital.

thanks, Ben

Without seeing a source and being able to compare, it's certainly hard to say.

Here's something to try. Dup the base image and apply a gentle contrast mask. Desaturate completely. Then use a luminosity blend mode.

Hi Lonnie, what do you mean by a GENTLE contrast mask? I've done this a few times, (dup, desat, invert and then set to overlay) but setting the layer mode to luminosity muddied the skintones or caused solarisation of colours.. I've also found contrast masking on people to be rather troublesome on high contrast edges, leading to halo effects.

anyone else have any clues? many thanks

bohngy, I may have misled you slightly since I'm not using Photoshop and my translation was lacking. By GENTLE, I mean apply a somewhat minimal contrast mask to the image (a slight gaussian blurred inverted desaturation, with about 20% overlay blend opacity). Using a duplicate of that combined result, fully desaturate and luminosity blend with the original again. (Opacity may need some additional adjustment.) Does that work for you? I attached an example.

Thanks for your efforts Lonnie, but it's still not quite it. It's almost as if the image is desaturated by some other method than the hue/desaturation tool.
The contrast mask flattened the contrast somewhat (I see what you were getting at) but it made the colours pop more, not less. A subsequant desaturation of the flattened image didn't yield the right feel.

I know this is horribly objective, so I apologise for that, but thanks for trying to help out.

Are there any fashion retouchers here who could lend a hand?

I'm in for this!!! I'm photographer also.

Sorry Lonnie, I had to use your image because I didn't have a suitable one of my own.

I looked to me like the desaturation was non-linear. Lights were desaturated more than the dark colors. Sooo... I duplicated the background layer, switch to LAB, selected the L channel, switched back to RGB and pasted the L channel as a layer mask on the dup'ed background layer. Then ran Image->Adjustments->Desaturate and set the opacity to 60%. I then added a layer on top (check "Use Previous Layer To Create Clipping Mask")and filled with 255, 225, 255, blending mode Normal. You can run Hue/Saturation adjustment on this layer moving Hue and Sat to taste.

I had to use your image also Lonnie. Hope you don't mind.
Ben it would have helped to have an image of yours to try this on as style might be different from Lonnies shot.

I did a selective color adjustment layer set to saturation blend mode and pulled all the colors blacks down to -100 and left white, neutral, and blacks alone.
Then I made a luminosity mask (opt-com-~) and using default colors, made a gradient map adjustment layer set to saturation blend mode.
Both adjustment layers were at 100%, but use your own settings.
Selective color was on absolute.
Contrast I leave up to you and your taste.

Chris

I also took the liberty to use Lonnie's image.
Used a hue/sat adjustment layer to lessen saturation. Added a saturation mask to target already saturated parts (mask created from the HSL/HSB filter) then mixed a black and white layer to tweak shadows and adjusted with levels.

Just shooting in the dark here. The idea was to bring all the saturation to the same level, not just desaturate this range or that range. Made a saturation mask and pulled the desat slider all the way to the left, pulling back the most saturated areas. Slight contrast curve as well.

http://edgework.tripod.com/samples/bohngy_desat2.jpg

EDIT: should have read the whole thread before getting clever. Michael B had the same idea. Kudos. I'll leave mine up anyway.

Now we have a thread! thanks all... right I'm going to try these techniques with some images that have a bit of colour pop to them... hopefully the correct desaturation will give them the elusive feel i'm after.

If any of you could/would repeat your examples on my images I'd be very grateful to see how these come out. I've attached a couple.. they're really nothing special, other than the colour being quite strong. they're straight out of the camera.. no monkeying about... yet.

thanks all, Benj

http://www.benlawrencephoto.co.uk/exampleblm.jpg
http://www.benlawrencephoto.co.uk/exampleblm2.jpg

Nice shots.

http://edgework.tripod.com/samples/twoGirls.jpg

Here is mine. Decreased the opacity of the gradient map to 50% though.

Chris

Then I made a luminosity mask (opt-com-~) and using default colors, made a gradient map adjustment layer set to saturation blend mode.

ChrisWhen you say "default colors," what colors are you using in your gradient?

Default black and white.

My version.

Desaturated reds and yellows through a saturation masks - one high sat and the other inverted. Two hue/sat adj layers.

Selective color to taste.

Increased midtone contrast with a high pass filter at 50 r, overlay, with a blend if to protect shadows and highlights (this layer 50-80 185-215 sliders). Opacity 80%.

Final adjustment of density.

Larry

I feel there is something lacking in the images put forth by the members here compared to the examples the original poster posted. The skin looks dead, not just desaturated. There's a fine line where it just looks like dead people.. these to me look dead. I'll try. Gimme a minute.

I'll explain if you want.

Hi Ant, In trying to learn as much as possible to achieve these types of effects I'd love you to explain...

I'm really grateful to everyone who has helped here.. I haven't had much of a chance to try each approach, but I'll give it a shot in the morning. If I can help at all with any photography questions you might have, Lighting in particular (i worked as a lighting tech for fashion campaigns etc..) please email me...

I agree with you Ant. I did not do any kind of contrast moves that would
have brought back some life.
The method I used is fully dependent on the opacity levels set by the user.
Just showing how it could possibly be done and leaving the tweaks to bohngy.

Hi Ant, those skintones do look good... I must admit!

Here's my pass at your two examples

I duplicated the background layer (labled it Desaturate), switch to LAB, selected the L channel, switched back to RGB and pasted the L channel as a layer mask on the "Desaturate" layer. Then ran Image->Adjustments->Desaturate and set the opacity to 65% (change the opacity of the layer to increase or reduce the effect). I then added a Levels Adjustment layer on top (check "Use Previous Layer To Create Clipping Mask") to set the highlights and midtone to taste.

I recorded an action to do most of the work but can't figure out how to upload it. I can e-mail it to you if you like (need your e-mail address).

duwayne... I'd prefer to learn this myself rather than an action.. how do I copy the lightness channel in Lab... and then paste that into a layer mask?

man.. I've got some work/learning to do with this one!

I probably take the long way around the barn but seems straight forward. Convert to LAB, on the Layer/Channels palette select Channels and then the "L" channel. On the main Photoshop menu choose Select->All then Edit->Copy. Convert back to RGB and select the Layers palette and the Desaturate layer. Next choose Layer->Add Layer Mask->Reveal All. This will add the layer mask to the Desaturate layer. Now Alt-Click on the new layer mask and your screen window will be completely white (your are looking at the layer mask itself). Now Edit->Paste and select the layer thumbnail. Hope I got it right. It's quicker to do than type.

Ant -

I also really like your skin tones. I don't know if I would use the word "dead" looking but it sure looks "pastel skin". Probably a matter of taste but I would boost you mid-tone a bit. The image looks dark on the right side due to the bright light on the left. I've always admired your work.

Hi Ant, In trying to learn as much as possible to achieve these types of effects I'd love you to explain...

I'm really grateful to everyone who has helped here.. I haven't had much of a chance to try each approach, but I'll give it a shot in the morning. If I can help at all with any photography questions you might have, Lighting in particular (i worked as a lighting tech for fashion campaigns etc..) please email me...

bohngy, I'll go over what I did when I get back in the studio tomorrow. Don't remember all off the top off my head right now. (didn't do that much however).

btw, I am also a photographer. Got a good handle on light. PM me if you want my web address.

Chris, yeah, just didn't want him to get the wrong idea - not sure he'd seen or has seen what he's after yet. Color is one of my things and I'm always looking to make mine better. I actually brought the contrast down in my example rather than adding any. i think a lot of people are out to get that 'in' - ish look of desaturation, but only a few get it right. I'm a bit tired of it myself, but it's better than orange people.

bohngy, I'll go over what I did when I get back in the studio tomorrow. Don't remember all off the top off my head right now. (didn't do that much however).

btw, I am also a photographer. Got a good handle on light. PM me if you want my web address.

Chris, yeah, just didn't want him to get the wrong idea - not sure he'd seen or has seen what he's after yet. Color is one of my things and I'm always looking to make mine better. I actually brought the contrast down in my example rather than adding any. i think a lot of people are out to get that 'in' - ish look of desaturation, but only a few get it right. I'm a bit tired of it myself, but it's better than orange people.

Yeah. Couldn't agree more about the desat look. Don't know why it has hung on for this long.
You are right about him not getting the wrong idea. I tried something new by not being TO specific about things so that people would play around with numbers etc. Maybe I'm to vague this time.

Chris

Here's what I do when trying to get this kind of saturation.

I switch to lab mode and copy the lightness channel. switch back to rgb and paste it to a new layer. then I do this to it....

51244

it gives a little bit of separate control over light and dark sats. kinda like a shadow/highlight but without the "midtone contrast" slider if there were such a thing for saturation..

Ant, yours looks great!
Can't wait to see how you did it.

My '2 second' attempt.
Copied blue channel to new layer and reduced opacity to 30%.

That's all.
Not too bad for getting in the ball park as a starting point,
but i really like Ants.

Description of what I did (told you I didn't do much):

-Hue Sat adj layer: reds -9 sat +5 hue, yellow -6 hue - 35 sat - Normal
-Reduced the brighteness and contrast a bit - Luminosity (to not affect color)
Very slight tweak with Selective color (Normal - hardly worth mentioning)
Photo Filter - Sepia 11% density - Color

The important thing is that there is no hard and fast rule to doing this sort of thing in PS. It will always be image dependent and it helps greatly to have reference files open next to or in the document you are adjusting to help in matching color, contrast, saturation, etc. Knowing how to go after the results you want comes with practice. I did a lot of work that was essentially "Color School" in and of itself early in my retouching career - helps a lot now.

Here is my 2nd attempt.

I lowered the move within selective color to the red, yellow, and magenta to -50 instead of -100.
I am also trying to keep to the original colors that the image had as close as possible.
I also like ants, but the color has all shifted away from the originals, possibly because of the sepia move he used.

Chris

smdevo -
Thanks for the tip. I've been doing the same thing but using the L channel as a layer mask. Not much for control. I like the idea of using a Blend If layer since it give so much more control over the blending. It also allows you to turn each color channel on and off. Thanks again.

I am also trying to keep to the original colors that the image had as close as possible.
I also like ants, but the color has all shifted away from the originals, possibly because of the sepia move he used.


Yeah, something i noticed as well.

Chris, is it unacceptable to shift colour from the original?
If intentional or personally preferred by you?
Do the clients not like this or is it a case by case thing??

It seems they would expect a shift in skin tone in order to
'correct', but is that where it ends?

You just do it selectively rather than globally. It's acceptable if they like it or don't tell you that they want to retain the original.

Okay, i get ya. Thanks Ant.

Ants right.

Typically I will not change the color at all, thinking that that is what the photographer shot so that is what he wants.
Unless the photographer has told me that there were problems with lighting on the shoot or they are trying for a certain look.

This is one reason that I prefer to develop any of the files that I am going to retouch instead of receiving developed raw files. To much damage sometimes to work with.

Chris