Hello all,
Like I said in my other post today, this is my first day with this site and I've just found a link to a website claiming to charge for their "retouching".

http://www.realretouch.com/retouch.html

Why, dear lord why would you try to get work/get work with these images?

Like many other people on the forum I'm trying to find retouching work and I feel like when I finally get in contact with a pro photographer etc they are weary and don't tend to take anyone seriously, but thankfully they seem to like my work so all is not lost.

On the other hand everyone else here seems lovely! There are some great posts and I love the critique section, really good to see people chipping in for eachother.

Does anybody feel the same about the less than capable retouchers scaring away photographers for the rest of us? Or am I being mean... :)

Amy, yeah, there are cons all over the web. They want the easy way out, put up a site, show some pictures and hope someone will buy in. You and I may have a more critical eye, but the general public sees that woman with her wrinkles gone and they think that is just wonderful.

I recognize a couple of their samples as having been lifted from Tutorial CDS and other web sites. I KNOW they did not originate the torn picture of the little girl on a pony (Katrin Eismann, perhaps-but I remember it from somewhere) same with the guy with glare on his glasses.

You have the right idea. Personal contacts with photographers with a good portfolio and a professional demeanor and "real", not Avery I printed them on an inkjet, business cards.

I'm surprised that you are surprised! LOL

I don't know about you, but I've seen worse!! :)

Lol, not only is this a good site your a funny lot too!
Yeah I'm sure there are worse, and i cant believe those images are nicked! Thats soooooooo bad. Maybe I'm naieve, maybe I'm easily angered or maybe just maybe the whole worlds gone mad!

Unfortunately i think its the first 2!

Welcome to RetouchPRO.

I was reading some of the stuff on the site and thought the following paragraph really sums up what the site is about.

"Our results are outstanding. Compare samples of our work on this website with examples. you can't see elsewhere like this.We think you'll agree that the quality of our work speaks for itself."

Ha ha ha,
Thats the most silly bundle of nonsense!

Deary me,
Loving that monkey by the way, thats my fav bit of famliy guy.

I don't really see the point of bashing someone else's website... Does it make you feel better about the quality of your work?

Enkay, I don't think anyone's bashing the website as much as critiquing the quality of the work displayed there. Besides stealing the work of others to use for "their" examples is not kosher.

There are just too many good retouchers available to let this amature entity slide by.

Enkay, I don't think anyone's bashing the website as much as critiquing the quality of the work displayed there. Besides stealing the work of others to use for "their" examples is not kosher.

There are just too many good retouchers available to let this amature entity slide by.

I don't support stealing other people's work but I don't think thats the main issue here... He didn't ask for a review, and this feels more like a "Haha look at how much he sucks, I'm so much better!" sort of thing than a critique anyway.

Professional retouchers are most likely not losing any work because there's amateurs on the internet. If they are they need to work on their marketing.

If people are using his services and they're happy it, it doesn't matter what you consider amateur work. If he's not getting any work because everyone agrees with you, he'll cut his losses soon enough and take his website down.

I don't mean to sound bitter. It's just that it's so easy to point at others and laugh...

EDIT: Too much rambling... My point is, you might think you're better than him and most people might agree but there's also people out there who are much better than everyone who posted in this thread, me included of course. I wouldn't like them to start making fun of my work and website and you probably feel the same.

I recognize a couple of their samples as having been lifted from Tutorial CDS and other web sites. I KNOW they did not originate the torn picture of the little girl on a pony (Katrin Eismann, perhaps-but I remember it from somewhere) same with the guy with glare on his glasses.


Yes I recognise them too, I was trying to place where they came from.

I don't really see the point of bashing someone else's website... Does it make you feel better about the quality of your work?
Does it make feel that you're a much better human being than everyone who posted in this thread 'cause you don't lower your character to the level of your so-called "bashing" others? How does it make you feel when I ask you this? I don't know how you define "bashing", people here are just expressing their opinions. I certainly don't feel better about the quality of my work just by looking at that site. I'll be very busy pointing finger and laughing at many other similar websites out there if I wanted to boost my self-esteem to make myself feel better and brag about the quality of my work. I'd just completely stop learning knowing that there will always be hundred of others that are below my skill level...and I certainly wouldn't be at this site trying to better my skill. The reality is that it's a website. If you made it public, people will talk about it whether it's good or bad.

Yes I recognise them too, I was trying to place where they came from.

I've seen them as well, either someone has posted them here, or I clicked a link on the side bar - I'm inclined to think they were posted here by a member.

Could be wrong of course :surprise:

I think Enkay has a point though. Perhaps it is better to look at the really good pros and aspire to that, rather than look at the lower end retouchers and laugh because you/I/we think we are better.

It was driving me nuts, so Iooked it up. The sample retouch of the little girl on the pony is directly from Katrin Eismann's Restoration & Retouching. In her Second edition it's from Chapter 5, page 155.

Enkay, It's not about me or making me feel better. I'm terrible at retouching, it's not my forte. I don't even attempt it and I don't really enjoy doing it. I have no personal animosity toward the folks at the sampled web site (except using other people's work as _their_ examples). That said, I have seen enough amazing work done right here in RetouchPRO, and other sites, that I have developed an appreciation for what is excellent work and what is less than stellar.

I'm not laughing at anybody. I'm just feeling sorry for anyone who stumbles on that site and intrusts their precious photo of great grandmom to them for a retouch when *I* know there are hundreds of other retouchers that are capable of doing so much more than what is displayed on this site.

Of course its not about making me feel better! It makes me angry that they are pretending to offer a service that they clearly cannot provide, theres a name for that, false advertising. It had nothing to do with my work, no body learns anything by compairing yourself to people below you, you help people that aren't as good as yourself and you aspire to the people above you otherwise you get no where.
And anyway they are actively taking business away from other people otherwise they wouldn't have a website still up, as it would be a financial burden. Not everybody knows what good retouching is so picture this:
Someone needing a retoucher could go through every crap, wannabe out there and never get round to you when you know you could do a great job and start a career from it. Its not mucking around its people's livelyhoods

If people are still going to his website and buying his services, we're obviously not doing a very good job at marketing our services. People might not know what good retouching is, but if they're content with what they get from him, well maybe that's what part of the market wants. Mcdonalds isnt gourmet food but they're still making millions because it's what some people want. Free market.

The only thing wrong here is that some of his exemples were stolen from someone else.

And whoever tried to bash me, I'm not going to play your little game.

Nobody's bashing you, Enkay. You are right, some folks like McDonalds.

Of course its not about making me feel better! It makes me angry that they are pretending to offer a service that they clearly cannot provide, theres a name for that, false advertising. It had nothing to do with my work, no body learns anything by compairing yourself to people below you, you help people that aren't as good as yourself and you aspire to the people above you otherwise you get no where.
And anyway they are actively taking business away from other people otherwise they wouldn't have a website still up, as it would be a financial burden. Not everybody knows what good retouching is so picture this:
Someone needing a retoucher could go through every crap, wannabe out there and never get round to you when you know you could do a great job and start a career from it. Its not mucking around its people's livelyhoods

Hi Amy,

They are offering a service, and if people are happy with that service .....

Not all folks want to pay out bundles of money to get their images fixed, not everyone wants a masterpiece as an end result.

Besides, if the not so goods didn't exist, then nobody would know what good was ;)

I think you hit the nail on the head with McDonalds.

It doesn't always come down to marketing, obviously its very important but there are always people that will get the cheapest deal out there...for example my Dad's a builder and when people ask several builders for quotes he's never the cheapest because he doesn't cut corners, but then something goes wrong when they hire the cheap builder and they ring my dad back and ask for help. And of course he helps, but they've spent twice as much as they would have in the first place.

oops didn't mean to send that twice

I think you hit the nail on the head with McDonalds.

It doesn't always come down to marketing, obviously its very important but there are always people that will get the cheapest deal out there...for example my Dad's a builder and when people ask several builders for quotes he's never the cheapest because he doesn't cut corners, but then something goes wrong when they hire the cheap builder and they ring my dad back and ask for help. And of course he helps, but they've spent twice as much as they would have in the first place.

I understand where you are coming from Amy, but some people are more than satisfied with 'fixed' - as opposed to 'FIXED' .... if you know what I mean.

Enkay's points about promotion are worth a listen. If you're keen to get your name in every circle going, try doing some restoration/retouching work for a non profit organisation ... good way for many people to see your name in lights because you can say that as part of your 'free' service your name is added to the blurb.

Think about getting some istock images and producing your own calendar to promote your own work ...... I must do this next year with some photographs I have been saying I'm going to do it with for about the last 3 years :o:

Think of ways that you can promote yourself.

Amy, you want to become a great retoucher, practice ALL aspects of retouching, become great at masking and compositions. forget about skin, anyone can do it.....study and master color. all that only comes with major practice.

and def move past this thread!

I'm not going to comment on the standard of his work but I do object to thestealing of the work of others.

I'm not worried about advertising, I've had some exhibtions and my works going to be in Advanced Photoshop in January, I've got my site and I wouldn't want to promote too early on as I'm still learning. Using channels like Advanced Photoshop means that I can be in the magazine later, or on their site. I've just finished doing a work placement with McFaul and made some good contacts there.

As far as marketing goes I think you just need a business head on and its just a question of getting it done, on my course we've sort of been thrown into that stuff already, I dont mind marketing at all and its great to see results from it.

Amy, you want to become a great retoucher, practice ALL aspects of retouching, become great at masking and compositions. forget about skin, anyone can do it.....study and master color. all that only comes with major practice.

and def move past this thread!

Thats some comical timing there, you're so right.

only tip i can offer you at this point is when working on a file, that normally takes hours....take a 15 min break at the end, walk away from your screen....then come back and see all the mistakes you made. fine tune it. go in really deep, and search for any sign or trace of your retouching (smudged pixels, sloppy cloning, slightly off masks, etc.). that will make a huge difference in the quality of your professional work. those little things are huge.

ok, now get off this thread!

I'm not worried about advertising, I've had some exhibtions and my works going to be in Advanced Photoshop in January, I've got my site and I wouldn't want to promote too early on as I'm still learning. Using channels like Advanced Photoshop means that I can be in the magazine later, or on their site. I've just finished doing a work placement with McFaul and made some good contacts there.

As far as marketing goes I think you just need a business head on and its just a question of getting it done, on my course we've sort of been thrown into that stuff already, I dont mind marketing at all and its great to see results from it.

Then you shouldnt worry about amateurs out there as you're obviously quite awesome at retouching and on a whole other playing field with a top notch marketing strategy.

Oh please, as i said i'm still learning and in no way do i think i have it sussed.
Now who's bashing other people.

Geez, Enkay,

I just went to your website and now I know why you're so defensive.
One of the photos you used as an example is not yours to use.

Geez, Enkay,

I just went to your website and now I know why you're so defensive.
One of the photos you used as an example is not yours to use.

I know which one you're talking about. Third one in Basic Airbrushing.

That picture has been used in a tutorial to show how to smooth skin. I actually did that retouch myself and it's not the one from the tutorial. If you look closely you'll see I used a different technique and also fixed the eyebrow.

My website is not yet "launched" and all the pictures on it are gonna go soon anyway. It's all just place holders while I try some designs. Notice how half of the sections don't even work...

But thanks for accusing me of using other people's work!

I didn't accuse you of using some else's retouching work.
I said that photo is not yours to use.

I didn't accuse you of using some else's retouching work.
I said that photo is not yours to use.

And you know that because you own the royalties to that picture right?

I don't have to own the rights to it to know that it's not yours.

Need I have to show you the uncropped one to prove it here?

I don't have to own the rights to it to know that it's not yours.

Need I have to show you the uncropped one to prove it here?

Whatever makes you happy and feel better.

Listen child,

You're acting like a fool. You made a mistake in using another's photograph.
Get over yourself.

Listen child,

You're acting like a fool. You made a mistake in using another's photograph.
Get over yourself.

Yes old man. But that was not my point at all. I didn't even think about my website when I posted here.

This thread is about bashing someone's work.

My point are that it's better to focus on improving ourselves rather than bashing others we consider to be below us and that it's a free market.

If you want to go on a personal vendetta against me, enjoy yourself. I do not take credit for the photograph, I take credit for the retouches.

Hi Enkay,

I think Bill means the copyright (or non) to the original image.

Hi Amy,

You might want to register yourself HERE (http://www.ifreelance.com/).

That's right, Alison.

Enkay, you can't use someone else's photograph and use it on your website to show your retouching. It's against the copyright law. It's bad form in the photography/retouching worlds and marks your site as unprofessional.

If you want to go on a personal vendetta against me, enjoy yourself. I do not take credit for the photograph, I take credit for the retouches.

There is no vendetta, and I'm not putting down your work. You have much to learn, but you'll get there as long as you start listening and learning and stop being so defensive.

Perhaps you don't intend to come off as confrontational, but that's how I'm reading you and others are too.

Hi Enkay,

I think Bill means the copyright (or non) to the original image.

Bill's point is that I replied what I did in this thread because I'm defensive about this one picture that's on my site. I find that insulting because I made valid points and my website has nothing to do with it.

I'm against bashing the work of others even when you consider it to be crap and I also believe in a free market.

The picture he's refering to is wildly used all over the internet in tutorials. I agree it's not the best idea to use it on my website but I figured it wouldn't hurt much as the website is not launched and I'm not announcing it and I didn't really expect anyone to go on it except me.

Maybe we should take down all the tutorial websites too? They're surely making more money than I am with that picture.

EDIT: I actually took down links to my website as I don't want people to look at an unfinished product. I wasn't even aware people were looking at it.

Bill's point is that I replied what I did in this thread because I'm defensive about this one picture that's on my site. I find that insulting because I made valid points and my website has nothing to do with it.

I'm against bashing the work of others even when you consider it to be crap and I also believe in a free market.

The picture he's refering to is wildly used all over the internet in tutorials. I agree it's not the best idea to use it on my website but I figured it wouldn't hurt much as the website is not launched and I'm not announcing it and I didn't really expect anyone to go on it except me.

Maybe we should take down all the tutorial websites too? They're surely making more money than I am with that picture.

Hi Enkay,

I agree with a lot that you have said, I also agree with a lot that Amy has said.

We all have to start somewhere and then we learn some more and improve our techniques. If people want to pay cash to the other person for his/her work, that is fine by me - and yes, I believe in a free market as well.

The image on your site is a whole other matter. Just because it is on loads of sites on the web, doesn't make it a free for all. The image may not have any copyright to it at all, it may be worth investigating though, to see if it has.

The person from the original post is not false advertising, because I haven't seen a definite meaning to the words 'retouch', 'professionals' etc., Everyone has a different definition and standard that they aspire to, and it is not for me or anyone else to try and determine what meaning others associate with those words.

Enkay,
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and the original discussion was about the work on the web site that Amy linked to. I think too that the consensus of opinion, thus far, is that the work is amature stuff. That would be fine if the guy/gal was here in RetouchPRO seeking to improve, but he/she has set up a web site and is attempting to sell it. When you sell your work you are considered a professional, but I think most of us agree that he/she has done professional work.

I cannot tell you the times I have "amazed" my friends and family by removing a blemish or fixing wrinkles. But I'm not selling my stuff, 'cause I know I'm not very good at it and would be cheathing them if I did. Sure they love it, but they don't have a trained eye. It's just magic to them.

Here in RetouchPRO we see retouch work daily. We watch and learn. We follow the advise and critiques of those better than us. If you come here with thin skin, and feel people are bashing someone's work (I've been here three years and have never seen it) you need to understand that THAT is not what we do here. Most of us "call 'em like we see 'em" without animosity. We just hope to help others improve. Granted, the person responsible for the linked web site is not here to learn, but that shouldn't stop any of us from being able to critique his/her work.

Hi Enkay,

I agree with a lot that you have said, I also agree with a lot that Amy has said.

We all have to start somewhere and then we learn some more and improve our techniques. If people want to pay cash to the other person for his/her work, that is fine by me - and yes, I believe in a free market as well.

The image on your site is a whole other matter. Just because it is on loads of sites on the web, doesn't make it a free for all. The image may not have any copyright to it at all, it may be worth investigating though, to see if it has.

The person from the original post is not false advertising, because I haven't seen a definite meaning to the words 'retouch', 'professionals' etc., Everyone has a different definition and standard that they aspire to, and it is not for me or anyone else to try and determine what meaning others associate with those words.

That's what I'm trying to say. I don't know why Bill is trying to make this about me and this image on my site. I think he's just angry.

I already said it's probably not the best idea to use it and have taken down links to my site as I didn't know people were actually looking at it. I just needed a place holder for a website that's not yet launched or in any way finished.

Enkay,
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and the original discussion was about the work on the web site that Amy linked to. I think too that the consensus of opinion, thus far, is that the work is amature stuff. That would be fine if the guy/gal was here in RetouchPRO seeking to improve, but he/she has set up a web site and is attempting to sell it. When you sell your work you are considered a professional, but I think most of us agree that he/she has done professional work.

I cannot tell you the times I have "amazed" my friends and family by removing a blemish or fixing wrinkles. But I'm not selling my stuff, 'cause I know I'm not very good at it and would be cheathing them if I did. Sure they love it, but they don't have a trained eye. It's just magic to them.

Here in RetouchPRO we see retouch work daily. We watch and learn. We follow the advise and critiques of those better than us. If you come here with thin skin, and feel people are bashing someone's work (I've been here three years and have never seen it) you need to understand that THAT is not what we do here. Most of us "call 'em like we see 'em" without animosity. We just hope to help others improve. Granted, the person responsible for the linked web site is not here to learn, but that shouldn't stop any of us from being able to critique his/her work.

The way I see it, not everyone is looking to pay big amounts of money, and not everyone wants retouches that could be featured in GQ. There's different segments of market and that's fine by me.

Pepsi is bottling tap water and making millions with it. There are laws, but in the end you're pretty much allowed to sell whatever you want. The market will decide if they want your product or not. If they do, who are we to judge.

I wouldn't consider this a critique of his work as I havent seen any constructive critisism so far.

I will now stick to technique sections and let you guys to your fun bashing and internet post wars.

One of my friends over on the NAPP board is a retoucher who has won awards for his work. The guy is really good. Another NAPP member ran across a web site in India that was using one of his award winning retouches as an example on their site. My friend had copyright notices all over his work and the Indian site displayed his work complete with the copyright notice! Now that's pretty gutsy. And the irony is the Indian site had a copyright notice at the bottom of their opening page. Apparently they don't know what copyright means.

"I think he's just angry."

lol, ok. I'm just an angry old person and you should use that photo all you want because, hey, Bill's an angry guy.

LOL, Bill. Just so long as your not a dirty old angry man.

lol, you're right... I forgot, it comes with the old age :D

I don't think anyone was over the top in the comments they made regarding that website. If they are in fact using works by other re-touch artists (of whatever quality), that is flat out WRONG. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the pieces in our own critique forum was taken and used by someone else as advertisement of their work.


btw, that Pagaent pic (the women in pink) is hillarious!!! Looks horrible lol

I'm agree with all. I want critique for my work.

just checkout my web site

www.photofixonline.com

I want to be a good restorer / retoucher. all of ur opinion will help me.

maybe some more examples of what you can do would be good?

Think about getting some istock images and producing your own calendar to promote your own work ...... I must do this next year with some photographs I have been saying I'm going to do it with for about the last 3 years :o:

Think of ways that you can promote yourself.

Now THAT is creative thinking! Love it! I'm still looking into my email marketing and direct mail. Unfortunately my website is still a mess and I just need to find the time to fix it up. That is the down side to being a "do-it-yourselfer"

Sarah

Like in any business you have many levels of expertise from entry level to outstanding.This is a double edge sword because you hear or see work that might not be top notch but some people also do not want to pay and not just the general public but also people who know what its worth(as mentioned on this sight by by people in the business)So when looking at work the question is who is there client
just my opinion
zganie