I think not only me But many others are curious if people on here are actually making money and/or a living not just one or two people but in general.
Dataflow mentioned I asked the same question in a lot of forums sorry maybe I went about it the wrong way The question is not directed at any one individual.But it seems to me that people would want to know since a lot of time and effort goes into learning this skill,plus if your going to spend money putting up a webpage and time and energy promoting yourself.Dont you think its a good idea to get feed back from people in the business?
just my opinion
Zganie

I make a nice living manipulating photos.

If you want to make a living doing this, you have to be in the right market as well as have all the necessary skills and the eye. There are a billion people with Photoshop, few make a living doing it. Most of the magazines, ad agencies, etc are in the big cities. Someone has to have the budget to pay you. "Pretty good" doesn't cut it. there are quite a number of members on this board who make a living retouching. The majority however (thousands?) are fooling themselves greatly. Like anything, you have to be good to get paid and you have to be honest with yourself. Does your stuff look like that billboard, magazine ad, point of purchase display? I mean is it that good? No? Well then there you go. Look at how many people call themselves a photographer and have websites and everything. There are an equal number or more who are trying to make a living messing with photos. Doesn't mean they ever will.

a lot of time and effort goes into learning this skill

Big understatement, especially in regards to this board's members. Most here think a few hours spent on one image is crazy. Try 60. Some quit learning early on. Look at those people who have been working with Photoshop for 10 years and still suck. There is only so much you can learn from poor teachers with limited information or from books or tutorials. You need to get your hands dirty working somewhere where things are done right and the nitpicking is endless. This is a business of perfection, invisibility, refinement, communication of ideas, art, commerce, science, color theory, input, output, processing, lighting, capture, anatomy....the list goes on and on, but at the same time it's a 'pixel monkey' job as well (do what you're told, work well with others, respect deadlines, do what it takes, good enough never flies, provide more than what's asked for). It's a collaborative effort, a business of interpretation, thick skin, big egos, beaten down egos, client pleasing, client wowing, subjectivity, and style.

I make a nice living manipulating photos.

If you want to make a living doing this, you have to be in the right market as well as have all the necessary skills and the eye. There are a billion people with Photoshop, few make a living doing it. Most of the magazines, ad agencies, etc are in the big cities. Someone has to have the budget to pay you. "Pretty good" doesn't cut it. there are quite a number of members on this board who make a living retouching. The majority however (thousands?) are fooling themselves greatly. Like anything, you have to be good to get paid and you have to be honest with yourself. Does your stuff look like that billboard, magazine ad, point of purchase display? I mean is it that good? No? Well then there you go. Look at how many people call themselves a photographer and have websites and everything. There are an equal number or more who are trying to make a living messing with photos. Doesn't mean they ever will.

a lot of time and effort goes into learning this skill

Big understatement, especially in regards to this board's members. Most here think a few hours spent on one image is crazy. Try 60. Some quit learning early on. Look at those people who have been working with Photoshop for 10 years and still suck. There is only so much you can learn from poor teachers with limited information or from books or tutorials. You need to get your hands dirty working somewhere where things are done right and the nitpicking is endless. This is a business of perfection, invisibility, refinement, communication of ideas, art, commerce, science, color theory, input, output, processing, lighting, capture, anatomy....the list goes on and on, but at the same time it's a 'pixel monkey' job as well (do what you're told, work well with others, respect deadlines, do what it takes, good enough never flies, provide more than what's asked for). It's a collaborative effort, a business of interpretation, thick skin, big egos, beaten down egos, client pleasing, client wowing, subjectivity, and style.

You're getting nicer by the minute :)

Hey, you'd be cranky too if you just spent 60 hours working on an image of the Olson twins.

Most here think a few hours spent on one image is crazy. Try 60. Some quit learning early on. Look at those people who have been working with Photoshop for 10 years and still suck. There is only so much you can learn from poor teachers with limited information or from books or tutorials. You need to get your hands dirty working somewhere where things are done right and the nitpicking is endless. This is a business of perfection, invisibility, refinement, communication of ideas, art, commerce, science, color theory, input, output, processing, lighting, capture, anatomy....the list goes on and on, but at the same time it's a 'pixel monkey' job as well (do what you're told, work well with others, respect deadlines, do what it takes, good enough never flies, provide more than what's asked for). It's a collaborative effort, a business of interpretation, thick skin, big egos, beaten down egos, client pleasing, client wowing, subjectivity, and style.


werd, Antman.

Making money is one thing...making a living is another. For those of you that make a living (car, insurance, family, house) my hat is off to you...Personally I feel you not only have to be good, but you need to be able to market and promote your talent.

Thanks Ant Best comment anyones ever made on here.Its the reason I was asking people who had put up websites if they were making money.

Also the reason for the questions are because,I give a seminar ever week on photography to students,its about the photography business all aspects not just photography but retouching prepress and photography etc..
we have people come and talk I try to dig up info and I like to get the info from someone who knows
sorry if this is long but as was stated its a lot of training and certain skills are needed NO USE KIDDING YOURSELF
thanks again and anyone else please give an opinion
ZGANIE

Making money is one thing...making a living is another. For those of you that make a living (car, insurance, family, house) my hat is off to you...Personally I feel you not only have to be good, but you need to be able to market and promote your talent.

no, you have to be good and not live in south carolina...

Yes I work from home as a high end beauty and fashion retoucher in the UK. I also go up to London to work in studios at times.

i'm not particularly good at it (not horrible, mind you, but i just know many other people that are better than i), but i make a living retouching high-end stuff, not rockstar money but money enough to support myself in NYC, and even support my own small business on the side

i like to think that speed counts as well, and not just quality. i mean, as long as you're talking about making money, and not the "art" and the "craft" bit of the business

Yes I also make a living as freelance retoucher in London. So it is possible don't worry about it! Like Ant said you may have to move somewhere near a big city, but that ain't always going to be the case: more and more clients are able to give your their FTP details and you can work from home.

There are many different levels of work available too, some of it requiring high end skills, some of it more basic. I think what makes the difference between those that succeed and those that don't are ..

1 Talent, already mentioned
2 Luck - getting in at the right place, at the right time. Theres a LOT of people on the circuit without a lot of Point 1, but have managed to land a trainee role somewhere and been helped along the way. Which bring us to ...
3 Persistence and the desire and openness to learn. Its always a mistake to think you've cracked it. And generally a mistake to try kicking those that are trying their first steps, cause one day they will come back and bite you! Certainly those who have any of point 1 at all. Who knows maybe one day their retouch of The Olson Twins may very well be better than yours!
4 Speed as mentioned in the previous post, and the ability to grasp and memorise technique

I'm guessing that Ant is such a curmudgeon about a lot of things is that, even though he makes a much higher than average gross than most Americans on his tax return in this trade, he still has to live in (or close?) to NYC in order practice his profession. I know it bugs me. Man, if I could make this money in a place that's cheap to live and doesn't have crazy people muttering something about Michael Jackson to me on the subway, I'd be a little happier.

I like ants anwsers, honest and true. I just worked on a print add, it took me 2 weeks to finalize it. Yes many many house go into touchig up. Especialy with these new 40 mega pix images now adays. I just did a billboard size add that had to be 200 dpi, back 15 years ago 50 dpi was fine. Ant is right when he said """ 'pixel monkey' job as well (do what you're told, work well with others, respect deadlines, do what it takes, good enough never flies, provide more than what's asked for""

I live IN Manhattan and have for 6 years as a choice. I could move to Jersey, say an hour away commuting distance and pay half or more less than I do now for rent/mortgage. I choose to live in the city for the convenience and lifestyle and I am not a fan of commuting. I do however do quite a significant percentage of my work from home for clients out of state. Yes, it sucks to pay up to 30k a year just to have a place to live, but I don't have to. That being said, I will be moving in May because I am in need of a larger space and I may move to Brooklyn, out of the city (but close-in). I do like to walk to work and have the world at my fingertips just outside my door. I'd live in the city, if I was still single, even if I only made 35k/yr.

a lot of time and effort goes into learning this skill

Big understatement, especially in regards to this board's members. Most here think a few hours spent on one image is crazy. Try 60.
:D
Your whole post is everything I've always thought or felt but never experienced in a professional workplace environment. I'm not making a living messing with images and probably never will but I enjoy the hell out of it and will probably always be wanting to learn more. At the same time when most that I find seem to want to pay a rate of $10 or less per hour I wonder why I bother trying to find paid work... that gets back to location/market I suppose.

I'd live in the city, if I was still single, even if I only made 35k/yr.

Where, under the FDR?

I'm hoping that this banking/credit crisis opens up a lot of apartments those finance kids have been snapping up over the last decade. Please.

(Not too far from the FDR - Ludlow in the lower lower east side)
My first ny apt was $800/month - two room studio, bathtub in the 'kitchen' / living room area 5th floor walk-up tenement. The made Peking ducks in the outbuilding on the ground floor behind the garbage area. Very doable I'd imagine on 35k ($9600/yr) - not conducive to significant others however. I look back on that 5 months with fondness however and I didn't have a job at the time which was quite nice.

I hope it does also, but I doubt it. One of the reasons it's so expensive to live in manhattan is because of the wall street 24 year olds who make 400k a year or more - there are soo many. Reminds me a bit of Seattle. Tons of under 30 year old millionaires. Thing is, it'll get really bad for all of us before that happens. NY is way too close to Europe and the Euro and Pound are very strong compared to the dollar, so tons of that money supporting all the prices. Plus, the mortgage market keeps people from buying things and keeps the rental market very strong. NY is still immune to a lot of the things that have a nationwide effect

Where, under the FDR?

I'm hoping that this banking/credit crisis opens up a lot of apartments those finance kids have been snapping up over the last decade. Please.

if moneys your main objective then honestly get out of retouching, there are many more clever, if bankruptcy laden ways,here are many young cokeheads in London earning 500k plus down the city. Thats why these "does anyone actually make a LIVING doing this" threads irritate

"I enjoy the hell out of it " -. If you've got that as your starting point then you certainly got something to work on. Its the one thing that will make it possible for you to maybe make a living doing this eventually, and remain sane.

Reckon I met that same Michael Jackson guy last night on the tube! he moved over after I showed him my false limb

heh, well, Antman, you speak like a true Manhattanite when you classify Brooklyn as "out of the city". I live just across the river in Jerzey, and am a bit tired of it almost being a handicap to get a job sometimes. "Hmmmm....you live in New Jersey. Will there be a problem with your getting into work?" Jeez, isn't that why they dug the Lincoln Tunnel?

And, Markzebra, I hope that wasn't your false third limb.

that was the one!

yep I agree and that's why my son moved to NYC...but then again, not everyone wants to live in NYC.

I live just across the river in Jerzey, and am a bit tired of it almost being a handicap to get a job sometimes.

i find it more of a pain in the ass socially than professionally. when meeting women there is no good point in the conversation to introduce your local and yet out-of-state residence. the most common response i get is straight out laughter, or con-descending sympathy

and yet i still get to work faster than my brooklyn based co-workers

This has been a really interesting thread to me as well. I'm a videographer, and do support myself and my family that way, which I'm really greateful for. While Photoshop and still images are not the mainstay of my work, I do all of the graphic arts associated with my finished products, our advertisements, and also a large number of photo montages (video of picttures set to music) for our clients, involving scanning and fixing photos before use in the video. I love photoshop and would love to do that all the time !! but I haven't found a way to support myself that way yet. This thread has let me know that there are people out there who have found a way and if I keep working on it maybe I can get there too.

Thanks for everyone's answers!

[QUOTE=videogal;I love photoshop and would love to do that all the time !! but I haven't found a way to support myself that way yet. This thread has let me know that there are people out there who have found a way and if I keep working on it maybe I can get there too.

Thanks for everyone's answers![/QUOTE]

my new co-worker also loves photoshop as it can be a very interesting creative outlet but the day to day grind isn't always creative and for those that can't handle the pressure of jobs that are "due yesterday" it can be an unpleasant situation..a large part is in fact quite tedious and i can't get her to understand this, she's always trying to take short cuts..the other day she asked me how to turn a selection into a path, i cringed and wanted to shake her at the same time...

I think not only me But many others are curious if people on here are actually making money and/or a living not just one or two people but in general.

I make money retouching, but not living. Living I make with photography, and would like to leave it that way. However, I won't say no to interesting retouching assignment (fashion, glamour); I do it for dutch playboy, and for some good and loyal photographers, and loving it as a side job. Would not do it full-time though, because it's by far not as creative as making my own images.

Q: i am someone who is at cross-roads in their career ... i don't know whether to pursue retouching or not as the next step. I am currently in London but will move back to Australia (Brisbane initially) where i am from in the next year or so. (partner is English therefore the issues...)

Is there any point in me pursuing this career if there is no market for me out of Brisbane? (or any other aussie city?) even with a fast broadband connection?

Q: i am someone who is at cross-roads in their career ... i don't know whether to pursue retouching or not as the next step. I am currently in London but will move back to Australia (Brisbane initially) where i am from in the next year or so. (partner is English therefore the issues...)

Is there any point in me pursuing this career if there is no market for me out of Brisbane? (or any other aussie city?) even with a fast broadband connection?

It couldn't hurt. Working in London will sound good to any potential employers much like someone from LA or NY moving to a smaller market (dude, she's from London!). Certainly there are photographers in Brisbane and vicinity. You may be able to make your own job by way of offering your services to them exclusively and supplement with a similar type job full-time for someone else. I'd start by researching the market (search ad agencies, production/design houses) in the area you may move to. Then, get good and absorb and practice as much as possible.
Population is nearly 2 million and Brisbane has the highest growth of any capital city in Australia. There's a decent chance that there may be work there for you or that you could create work for yourself. One year is not a long time however, so make the most of it.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=brisbane+australia+ad+agencies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Thanks Ant for the advice; it is much appreciated.

Do you think agencies in a place like Brisbane would be less likely to be so demanding of their artworkers needing both Photoshop AND Illustrator skills, than say, London seems to be? (apart from high-end retouchers being skilled enough to be employed on photoshop skills alone) I have basic skills in Illustrator but have no desire to develop those skills further since i know i will never be an amazing illustrator...

I guess i am asking because ideally i would like full-time employment with an agency rather than be forced to have to start freelancing in my unemployed state because the agencies wanted Illustrator skills along with the photoshop skills.

(Forgive me if the above leads you to think i wanted you to research the brisbane market for me. absolutely not. i am trying to get my head around the different markets for retouching and whether a 5-10 career plan can be forged with me living in Brisbane and Retouching - or whether i should just go and learn how to edit video!)

Thanks Ant for the advice; it is much appreciated.

Do you think agencies in a place like Brisbane would be less likely to be so demanding of their artworkers needing both Photoshop AND Illustrator skills, than say, London seems to be? (apart from high-end retouchers being skilled enough to be employed on photoshop skills alone) I have basic skills in Illustrator but have no desire to develop those skills further since i know i will never be an amazing illustrator...

I guess i am asking because ideally i would like full-time employment with an agency rather than be forced to have to start freelancing in my unemployed state because the agencies wanted Illustrator skills along with the photoshop skills.

Working in an ad agency will be it's own thing and very different than working at a boutique retouching house. It'll be in-house, corner cutting, often less than perfect work, long hours, etc. and you may use more than just Photoshop in your day to day. Anyway.... I just mention it because it's more likely that you'll be able to find something in that area being a smaller market but you really need to do research. Quick google searches turn up butt-loads.

You should have basic skills as a retoucher in Illustrator, In Design, etc. While you may not be illustrating per se, in Illustrator you may be using elements that will need to be stripped into an image and Photoshop later. Ditto layouts and such in InDesign or Quark. It's all Adobe, so the learning curve isn't so bad and a lot of the quick keys are even the same. Take a class, get the programs, use them and become proficient. Not knowing these programs will just hinder you. It's important to know how things work even if you don't use them all the time or don't have to use them as in-depth as someone else may.

I make a good salary with benefits working as a Digital Artist/Senior Retoucher at a direct sales company with its corporate headquarters in Orange County, CA.... only 6 miles from my house. But Ant is right as if I were in the right market which in CA is the LA area, I could make 20% more and living in the OC is as expensive if not more expensive then LA. It is a trade off as I am not fond of LA nor do I like to commute. I make extra income from my personal site and freelance work for photographers, but I am working extra hours too. For just the right job; much better money, benefits, hours, environment, ect. I would move... I guess (actually on the fence with this one as my kids live in OC).
~Nancy
_____________________________________________________________
www.PhotoArt123.com

Not sure if this is the best place to put this...but here goes.
I just got a job retouching wedding photos for a very nice photographer who is mediocre.(I'm not saying I'm better - but I have to be honest.) I am charging $15 an hour for corrections= color/exposure/noise (most of the work) and more for manipulation=cut/paste/clone stuff.

So in answer to the question I do make money, but I am not making a living.
Here is my question: I live in northern CA, and my only teaching has come from the web and HOURS/years of hands on. Can anyone tell me of another resource like this one where pros share some techniques for me to try?

many pros will not hand over the recipe book because they put in many hours/years/blood sweat and tears perfecting their techniques.

your best bet is hitting the local ad agencies to start, and get a foundation for what the job entails, and also get experince dealing with the other factors that weigh in like deadlines and art directors and clients and big egos…

Your question was not as clear to me as it seems to be to others. It seemed to me you asked if people are making a living using Photoshop ( and not necessarily just high end retouching). If I interpreted that correctly then my answer is absolutley yes.

I do not work for an advertising agency, or do beauty retouches are anything like that. I do color correction and restorations. I remove redeye and make enlargements. I create contact sheets. I do occasional colorization and make posters and I teach others how to do what I do. I spend a great deal of time working in photoshop and make a living at it.

I do not live in a 30,000 a year Apartment in NYC nor do I have any desire to. I do, however, live in a nice four bedroom home with a double car garage on a quiet cul-de-sac in a smallish town. I do have a family of five and I do have 2 fairly new vehicles. My oldest daughter does have braces and the entire family has new ski gear.

My point is I am making a very real and liveable living primarily because of my ability to use photoshop effectively but, I had to do it in concert with other skills (ie. supervisory and administrative skills). I have been able to take one of my hobbies and, by being flexible, support myself and my family comfortably.





.

Yes, I make a living using photoshop. Just bought a house, it's not very big, but at least it's mine. I don't work as a highend retoucher, but I work at an ad-agency as a studio guy. 90% of all my work is in photoshop, but I'm a proficient photographer, Illustrator and a good Indesign/pre-press guy.
It's great fun, but for instance last wednesday I worked 21 hours. And they don't pay overtime.

It's a great industry to work in (I've been quite lucky), but you have to work your A$$ off and the money, especially starting out, isn't fantastic. That said I've doubled my salary in the last 2 years, and am now looking to get a job as a retoucher.

It's a good place to start, but not sure wether it's a great place to end up.

sounds like you're on a salary, which is unfortunate if you have to work long hours...

Its true in London too- Ad agency work is the hardest, requires longer hours. Certainly freelancing doing ad agency work, going from job to job, which happens to be what Im doing at the moment, can be very hard. My experience suggests most people don't last very long at this and eventually take perm roles elsewhere to get away from it. You got to have VERY thick skin: You need to be technically proficient enough to hit the ground running on each job, able to work at sometimes tremendous speeds, able to listen and take vocal briefs and good enough to pull it off in terms of standards too.

Most permanent jobs on the other hand will require a certain narrower set of skills to a very high standard.

If you have a steady job, I don't know who doesn't work their a$$ off along with high stress and tension. Unfortunately many professions (computers, accountants, manufacturing) are being outsourced - especially jobs that can be done via computer communication. Could this not be just a true for retouchers? Would that mean someone like Ant would need to move from NYC to Bombay or Shanghi?

Its true in London too- Ad agency work is the hardest, requires longer hours. Certainly freelancing doing ad agency work, going from job to job, which happens to be what Im doing at the moment, can be very hard. My experience suggests most people don't last very long at this and eventually take perm roles elsewhere to get away from it. You got to have VERY thick skin: You need to be technically proficient enough to hit the ground running on each job, able to work at sometimes tremendous speeds, able to listen and take vocal briefs and good enough to pull it off in terms of standards too.

Most permanent jobs on the other hand will require a certain narrower set of skills to a very high standard.

i have to agree, ad agency work is very hard but i have to say it really pushed me to elevate my skills and i would go back to that kind of work if i could...

The trick with agency work is that it's always busy and everything is always important, so in the end I just end up not caring about things. Which works wonders for me, because I don't really get stressed.If you get stressed easily, it might not be the best industry for you. It's good fun though :)

"so in the end I just end up not caring about things" I can't do that, if I did I would have trouble doing it at all. As soon as a find myself thinking that way I take a break.

"pushed me to elevate my skills" yes its a kind of boot camp. And skills move on all the time. Last time I freelanced, more than 3 years ago, the general level of skill was a lot lower and frankly you could turn up for jobs with quite a high level and surprise them away with whatever you could do. There was a lot of older guys around with "old world" skills, and because it took THEM a day to do one image, that was fine. Now it seems to have all changed ,they have either been fired or retired or something. Least thats my reading so far.

Thanks for people having input I asked in another Question about Canadians,looks pretty Bleak

We are 14 people in the studio where I work, only 1 of those is over 35, so it's fairly new school.

When I said that I just stop caring I only mean that I've completely stopped caring about how busy it is, or how important it is. I do my job, and I do it well (as good as I can anyways) and so far it's working out for me :)

Then again the great requests you get at times really don't help either:

"we need you to do this completely hi-res, the Raw files are here, and we need the finished product in 30 mins"

Happens ALL the time sadly. The times where I actually can take the time to really make something shine are sadly few and far between....

I can't wholeheartedly recommend advertising agency work, is all I was saying.

it's not just the ad agencies that have that type of environment, i work for a large format printer and one of our biggest clients pulled a stunt like that last month..they cut 4 days off the production cycle and told us that if we didn't finish the project in time they would no longer be doing business with us..

Well, in answer to the original question... Back when I was making a living retouching I didn't have time to surf the internet all day. Now that I've been laid off and have all day to loaf around waiting for my unemployment check to be direct-deposited, I discovered this site!


Big understatement, especially in regards to this board's members. Most here think a few hours spent on one image is crazy. Try 60. ... This is a business of perfection, invisibility, refinement, communication of ideas, art, commerce, science, color theory, input, output, processing, lighting, capture, anatomy. ... (do what you're told, work well with others, respect deadlines, do what it takes, good enough never flies, provide more than what's asked for). It's a collaborative effort, a business of interpretation, thick skin, big egos, beaten down egos, client pleasing, client wowing, subjectivity, and style.

Indeed! I'd say if you aren't prepared to put in literally THOUSANDS of hours learning the craft then you probably won't make it. When I was in college I was putting in at least 60 hours a week drawing; life drawing from live models, still lifes from posed and lit tableaus, and anatomy studies from books and plastic models. That's just under 1,000 hours of drawing per semester, and that's just learning how to "see" things clearly. I spent a few years after college with Photoshop as my main hobby, and then when I started retouching "for real" I was shocked at how much I still didn't know. Now, after 4 years at much more than full time in a pressure cooker environment, and I'm using my time reading tutorials on this site and others, reading Katrin Eismann's book, to fill gaps in my knowledge and technique. I have a long way to go if I am going to achieve my goal of becoming the Best Retoucher in the World. :)

Hey, you'd be cranky too if you just spent 60 hours working on an image of the Olson twins.

Ha! The first time I was allowed to work on the Got Milk! campaign (and it was a big deal to me to be judged "worthy" at that point in my career) it was the Olsen Twins. (I did the retouching on this image, it's a composite of 3 or 4 shots: http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2004/04/weekinphotos/040719/olsen.jpg) It was definitely more than 60 hours, and very stressful hours too... the art director was picky about who he would work with, and it was a secret that I was the one doing the actual work. His "approved" retoucher had to present the work at the light table and I had to hang around in the background and listen to the comments, the AD would leave, and the job would get handed back to me! So I was all excited that it was finally approved, it got released to one or two pubs, they had some cocaine/anorexia scandal, and the whole campaign got pulled. :depressed

Great answer Abenormal,you made some great pointsabout learning things other than just retouching like Seeing and Drawing,This was one of the points behind this question.

The only thing I might add is what ANT said,its not only about learning But you must get your hands dirty)theres nothing like the real thing