I have recently posted here looking for retouching help in my growing business. A member, after contacting me looking for the job, then proceeded to contact my clients with this message:

Hi!
My name is Aida and I'm a high-end retouch artist.

My recent works include expo pannels for London Fashion week, The Daily Mail and a upcoming commercial with fitness model Maggie Diubaldo.

Julia Francisco posted on a retouching site asking help because she has too many photos to retouch and she wants to hire someone to help her. I don't consider that ok, for example for me to retouch your photos without knowing. So this is why I contacted you, to show you my portfolio and have a chance to work for you (directly) as a high-end retoucher.
My rate is 50 dollars per image. :)
I want to prove you that I can do the job. Please feel free to test me with a photo.
My portfolio:
http://bgagraphix.com/

After/Before gallery:
http://bgagraphix.com/gallery.htm

Looking forward for your reply.

Regards,
~Aida~

This is a real shame. Just an FYI to beware for those of you who are also looking for help.

MAN!!!!!!!!! This really makes it very difficult for those of us that are just starting out on our own that really appreciate folks like you giving us a chance to help. I'm very sorry jfrancisco! This is a professional forum and the people that I have met here with questions and advice are 100% in my book!

Shadie

That is the lowest of the low...I cannot believe that someone would actually stoop to those levels, but then again this person is only 19. They must really be worldly and experienced...so that your business is not developing so you have to try to steal someones clients. Is your belly slinking across the ground on a daily basis?

It just makes me mad!! I would say that warrants being expelled from this site, a 19 year old pro....huh So you have to try to steal clients from someone that has worked to develop their client base with true professional work that obviously is successful since they need more help. You are not classy and well you just looked like a dummy to anyone in the business by making judgmental statements in your email about someone else's business. And lastly any client would not care if the studio who produced the work did not come directly from the main person as long as the quality is what they expected, have you been in any real studio Aida? I would say not....


I would hope that persons gets it back in back karma, give'em the boot! Sorry for the rant, but nothing makes me more mad than a scam artists or people who try to take something for nothing, and I think this Aida is crawling around in the sewers and should just stay there.

Edit: Possibly we should all email his client base he has listed on his website and let them have a taste of his own medicine, how would Aida like that. But you know that is not my way, but it sure is tempting to do!!

julia, did you actually give her any work? her samples are very very poor, i would just be surprised if you even had her help you.

1st. WOW what nerve. This a classic case of no CLASS. NONE. ZERO. This is so frustrating. My creative heart goes out to Julia. I have been retouching for close to twenty years and have yet to experience this low class way of getting work. Maybe this person should try another line of work, like maybe selling drugs in a school yard.

Julia

What nerve! I can't believe someone would stoop that low, but people continue to amaze me with this type of behavior.

Although I am quite the novice, I agree with KR1156, the quality of this persons work does not impress me at all. (I actually liked some of the "before" photos better than the "after" shots.) In MHO Aida, you are NOT a high-end retoucher!

Based on the quality of her portfolio I had not contacted her back regarding her application to me for work (just as a note). I really think it's too bad that someone like this can ruin this fantastic resource (RetouchPro) for those of us professionals (whether just starting out or years in the business). I'm fortunate enough to have a very strong client base, built through years of collaboration and work. They didn't give it any more attention than it deserved but this may not be the case for everyone this girl contacts. I can only assume she's doing this to everyone who has posted here looking for help since I have never had any contact with her myself. It wasn't personal.

There always will be someone like this…
I wouldn’t worry about people with no integrity
and I’m sure your client, value it also.
Best regards,

I know who this member is after I looked through her portfolio. I believe you have reasons not to expose her user id...and I'll do the same.
Anyway, I've seen many high end portfolios and hers is definitely not it. $50 dollars per high end job?...really? It's great that you have a strong working relationship with your clients and they're nice enough to let you know about it by forwarding her message...they know what they're getting at that price.

this is nothing new, salesmen often go after accounts at other pre-press shops and sometime take employees with them..i recall interviewing at one place that had 20 people come in for 1 position, they ended up not hiring a single person which leads me to think they wanted to see where all these people were working and what type of work was being done..seems far fetched, but i don't know of too many places that will waste that kind of time without hiring anybody...

I think its a mistake to include too many clients on your website, certainly not with hyperlinks to their sites. If they are smaller photographers particularly, its an open invitation.

People who s#@t where they eat are what they eat.

I know who this member is after I looked through her portfolio. I believe you have reasons not to expose her user id...and I'll do the same.




Why not?

We should strip her/him naked in front of the world for that.

Why not?

We should strip her/him naked in front of the world for that.


It is a shame but there will always be a few people with little character or integrity. This is one of those people. It makes photographers leery of posting jobs on the site. A real hit for professionals here who would never act in this manner. I agree with Benny. We should expose people who take advantage of this forum for ill gains.
My 2 cents!
~Nancy

________________________

www.PhotoArt123.com

One of her 'high end' retouches was done for the September Retouching contest.
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/contests/18669-sep-07-contest.html

Sorry you had to deal with this attack, jfrancisco.

Personally I think this bad behavior merits banning at RetouchPro and DeviantArt.

NimfabebeAida

Way to go Ant!!
She won't hold her own in the professional world anyway, because her work is CRAP!
I am a complete amateur and I can do a better job.

i think its funny how she say this "I don't consider that ok" in the email.
but she thinks trying to take someone's clients is ok to do

Woa..
that is really bad. But I'm sure your clients won't bother about that.

Why not?

We should strip her/him naked in front of the world for that.
I don't know her at all. If Julia chose not to mention her user id, it's really none of my concern to do so. I just did a search based on the info provided and got her user id. Oh well, I see that Ant took care of that for you.

Funny... She emailed all my clients too :)

She won't get far tho... NYC and London are small and you can only get burned once ;)
Everyone knows each other.

Don't be so hard on her... maybe she doesn't know any better...
She'll learn quick enough tho
xx

doesn't know any better?!? you kidding me?!?

Based on the quality of her portfolio I had not contacted her back regarding her application to me for work (just as a note). I really think it's too bad that someone like this can ruin this fantastic resource (RetouchPro) for those of us professionals (whether just starting out or years in the business). I'm fortunate enough to have a very strong client base, built through years of collaboration and work. They didn't give it any more attention than it deserved but this may not be the case for everyone this girl contacts. I can only assume she's doing this to everyone who has posted here looking for help since I have never had any contact with her myself. It wasn't personal.
Julia,

I run another photography forum OPFora.com. Aida joined recently too. A retouch pro member notified about this issue today so I registered here to enter this discussion.

On OPF she was told to limit herself to a brief announcement in the one place where services are allowed.

We all like support people's efforts to succeed after all. However, members' information becomes at risk if unscrupulous people join. So this sometimes happens, is distressing and needs to be rooted out when it is proven. Is this such a case? What's the policy here?

How did she collect the client's names? I can't see how she obtained them! I can see that she might get the names of members in a forum but a client's list? I hope you can PM me with further details if it can't be posted.

Thanks for sharing.

Asher

This is ridiculous. Why would someone do something like this? "I don't consider that ok?" BS. Aside from probably overestimating her "high-end" retouching skills, Aida's acting in an extremely unscrupulous way. Hopefully this thread convinces her that others also "don't consider it ok" for her to operate like she does. And besides, It's not like an established client would be like, "oh, ok, I'll use you just because of a unsolicited cold call email, even though your work is crap and you steal other people's clients."

@Asher, I'm just guessing, but I think OP might have sent her information because she responded to his job offer, which would probably be necessary -

It would be a simple matter of getting the clientele info as it is considered good manners to credit the photographer etc on your website portfolio...a simple google search would then give one all the info needed.

That aside...such bad manners will not get her far in life.

Is she still allowed to be a member here?

Asher

You would have to speak with one of the moderators or Doug about that.

Anyway she won't go anywhere with that method to get customers or should I say "Steling customers"...
I would say no one on the industry (Photographers / studios / print directors/ etc) will treat this kind of people seriously when they get approached in this unprofessional manner...



this is what I think

Aida contacted me with her apology.

I asked her to let me know how many photographers were involved, she said 3-4 to whom she has apologized.

Asher

Shes only 19 isnt she?

Aida contacted me with her apology.

I asked her to let me know how many photographers were involved, she said 3-4 to whom she has apologized.

Asher

Wasn't that apology only aimed at your forum at OPF (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/) concerning Photographers.

I have heard nothing here at RetouchPRO about an apology for maligning the reputation of some Retouchers or for trying to steal their contacts

Wasn't that apology only aimed at your forum at OPF (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/) concerning Photographers.

I have heard nothing here at RetouchPRO about an apology for maligning the reputation of some Retouchers or for trying to steal their contacts
Hi Olbaldy,

There have been no reports of photographers on OPF being contacted.Here is the essence of communication on this matter.


Hi Asher !
I really need to make things clear for everybody !!! :)

I've emailed her clients because I thought it was a wrong thing to hire another retoucher. Now I've seen that this thing is common and I apologise.
Noone is perfect, but it's funny how people always are ready to judge others so hard.
I'm willing to learn from my mistakes.

Regarding emailing other photographers for work: the contacts are provided from Google or from the page of other retouchers. As a freelancer, I have to find my own clients. :) If my work is that bad, they simply won't hire me, so no need to do all this drama.

You are persons with maturity and I want you to understand that the Julia thing wasn't personal.
I apologise again.

Regards,
Aida




Hi Aida,

I'm glad you wrote to me. It's absolutely unacceptable to do what you admit you have done. If you become successful you would do that too but check the work! That's what happens with every single industry. Even great artists had assistants!

How many photographers did you do this to? You should email each photographer and apologize.

I'm not taking any actions at this time. Just provide me a list of the photographers and confirm you wrote to them.....

Hi Asher,

Thank you !
I apologised to the photographers ( 3-4 people) I've sent the emails too.
This is what I wrote them :
"
Hi!
I want to apologise for the message I've sent to you about Julia Francisco.
I realised I was wrong and I'll learn from my mistakes.

Thank you,
~Aida~
"
Regards,
Aida

Does 3-4 cover the extent of the problem? One of you must be an echo!

Asher

Asher, Thanks for sharing that with us.. and for taking an investigative initiative in this matter!

Very mature of you! (JK)

Sincerely.. Thanks!

It is nice to know that she has at least communicated with someone about her improprieties and at age 19 can still learn from her mistakes..

As a side note your pages at:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/
are very informative and have a polite, conducive atmosphere for learning with extensive photographic forum coverage like Digital Camera Discussion, Digital Darkroom (including Retouching), Color Management Discussion, Photography Discussions, and everything else photographically related!

Excellent site, Kudos!

THIS GIRL IS SMART!
I say way to go to her. She is smart. You guys say stuff like she is 19 and stupid, and you all cry that she emailed your clients.

Way to go girl. You have business skills. The letter may not be the way I would go about getting work. That is where you went wrong. Next time contact clients send just a basic email highlighting your skills and what sets you apart. never list other clients and say you can do better. This can make you sound bad, especially if that client has a friendship with the person you are ridiculing This will have a much better effect then trying to make fun of your completion. Also get your self a pro website designer and upgrade your site look. Work on your editing skill. But with your mind frame, you remind me of me when i was 19. Everyone is out for them selfs. It would be nice for a perfect world. but that does not happen. BUT remember that respect will get you farther. So do what you can to respect as much as possible. But dont let yourself be food to the wolfs.

All the rest off you really need to think about how you go about building your websites, and how you list your clients. This is where you need to make changes. I started my business when i was 18, when i was 19 i was doing really good. Then i made the mistake of listing my clients on my website. Within 4 months another photographer had taken half of my clients. Did i cry or get mad, nope. I went into recovery mode. I took my clients list off of my website. (I did not see a bad effect from taking the list down eather.) I found his flaws and weakness. I sent out weekly mailing and reminders.Special offers. I did what the president did when he had to clean up his affair. lol with in 3 months i had all my clients back with me except one.

This is business, we need to learn that we cant let our feelings get hurt. And we must play hard. I hope this helps both of you. And others who are in this game. I tried to play 3rd party and not side with eather side. So please dont quote be and tell me that im siding with the girl that sent the emails. Im not. I am also not siding with the person who got taken.

THIS GIRL IS SMART!
I say way to go to her. She is smart. You guys say stuff like she is 19 and stupid, and you all cry that she emailed your clients.

Way to go girl. You have business skills. ............
This is business, we need to learn that we cant let our feelings get hurt. And we must play hard. I hope this helps both of you. And others who are in this game. I tried to play 3rd party and not side with eather side. So please dont quote be and tell me that im siding with the girl that sent the emails. Im not. I am also not siding with the person who got taken.
Hi Matthew, you're very blunt but hey, that's the truth as I see it too!

I just thought we'd limit damage to everyone by clearing this up.

Asher

BTW, your own website is great but looks like you are in the middle of updating. Please, let me know when it's done!

Thanks asher. I am blunt. But then if im not who will be. i dont feel like being oprah. I dont try to be rude, sometimes people take it as rude. So Please dont ever take anything I say as rude just advise. And yes sadly i am updating my website, and its talking me a lot longer then i thought. lol. But customers website and work come first. :) Im not worried about down time due to the fact we are not taking new clients. But that more then you all wanted to know anyway. lol

She had contact me also for giving her work.All i can say is just she is overestimating herself.I think she might be insane.Just my opinion

i dont think her trying to taking clients is a bad thing.
but trying to make the other retoucher look bad is a bad thing.

she could have just emailed asking for work but instead she choose to make someone look like they did something wrong.
and that could have damaged there reputation as a retoucher

i dont think her trying to taking clients is a bad thing.
but trying to make the other retoucher look bad is a bad thing.

she could have just emailed asking for work but instead she choose to make someone look like they did something wrong.
and that could have damaged there reputation as a retoucher

Actually it IS wrong. I find it funny because it doesn't harm me but it's not ETHIC to look up someone else's client and contact him about work.

If you're good you don't need to do it. There are LOT'S of sites with listing of photographers so writing someone YOU KNOW works with another member of a community you're active in. IT'S WRONG.

xx
Natalia

it is a dirty way of treating someone who is letting us professionals get a bit more work in an already tight business.

We need to set up a petition to get her off this site.

Well how about this....WHERE is her apology at to be posted in this forum? In this thread? I don't see it anywhere?

Sending an email to one person is not being up front still about what she did, and until she comes clean out in the open I consider her to still be the same...and not learning anything from her mistakes.

If she was sincere then she would publicly make an effort to calm and apologize on here so that everyone can see that she is accepting her punishment with humility.

I don't think a public apology is necessary. An apology to the people involved is what is very much needed. She's new to this business and very young and she really screwed up. If she's read this thread, which I'm sure she has, she has certainly learned that you don't bad mouth other retoucher's to their clients. In my opinion she doesn't owe the entire community an apology.

I agree with Mathew that people can take your clients in a heart beat if you let the world know who they are. That's just the nature of the business and it happens everyday. BUT, I also agree that you DO NOT e-mail clients telling them that you think that a retoucher hiring extra help to complete a job is not ok and that they should hire you instead. If you're an ethical person and you want work from a client, you prove that you are the better candidate for the job. You don't try to bad mouth others to get your way in.

Well how about this....WHERE is her apology at to be posted in this forum? In this thread? I don't see it anywhere?


Evidently we are not "persons with maturity."

Well how about this....WHERE is her apology at to be posted in this forum? In this thread? I don't see it anywhere?

Sending an email to one person is not being up front still about what she did, and until she comes clean out in the open I consider her to still be the same...and not learning anything from her mistakes.

If she was sincere then she would publicly make an effort to calm and apologize on here so that everyone can see that she is accepting her punishment with humility.
Hi Spongebob,

I like that name!

In post # 33 above, I placed her apology and sincere regrets. She's young and energetic. I'd let her have a new start.

There are several issues involved here: etiquette on a forum where there has to be trust, what constitutes a "retoucher" or and "expert retoucher".

Her work is good enough for a lot of people and she will no doubt do even finer work in the future.

I'd like to send here a bunch of damage images and retouch challenges to deal with and I'll make that a requirement for unknown retouchers that appear from no where who want to offer services on OPFora.com, my own website. I hold expert retouchers in very high regard. I myself am an accomplished Photoshoper, meticulous and creative, able to achieve my own artistic intent, albeit slowly. Am I an expert retoucher? I doubt it! :)

If someone unknown announces they are an expert retoucher, what does that mean?

If anyone can allow me to use an unanswered challenge image on OPFora.com I'd a appreciate just a few and then try using them as a filter for those who want to offer commercial services. I'll hunt through some old pictures too and maybe go to an antique store and buy some old pics.

What do you think of that approach for the future? We have several other "expert retouchers" in line and I wonder about this title. Thanks for your feedback.

Asher

Nope. She should apologize here, not in private, because she used this forum to do this little trick.

And, yeah, she is a smart young lady. She'll do just fine in the rotten ethical world of NYC advertising if she decides to move here. Especially if she looks good in jeans.

eeewww --that's crappy!

The offender has been sufficiently mortified. This is how we gain experience.