I have a question for the skin experts. I have sampled some skins with, in my opinion, very nice retouching. It seems the skin is intact with very fine detail, but without the blemishes.

I’m familiar with the degrunge technique. My question is, is this only done with the degrunge technique and selective sharpening (eyes, mouth) or are there additional techniques aplied?

Please your opinion.

example: http://www.xs4all.nl/~honey/fotografie/downloads/skin_smooth.jpg

DeGrunge, if used at all, on resulted beautiful skin is generally used in the beginning process to alleviate some of the major, obvious, outstanding problems that DeGrunging can solve.. Tis only 1 tool out of many used to achieve the results provided in your samples.. Although handy at times, it is not the cure all One Button Fix.

There is a lot more processes involved other than applying an astringent to clear the skin.. Makeup (color adjustments) and blending (D&B) also help achieve the illusion of beauty and good skin to start with is definitely a PLUS!

Just my thoughts

Thank you for your reply.

If you want to achieve this effect, what additional steps would you take?

[btw, I linked the image, because it's too large for this board (500k)]

I will help with the resize.. You are correct there were artifacts introduced in the compression I had on here..

but let those with much more knowledge than I, answer your question .. (Which BTW has been asked in a variety of ways on this forum)..

The search button above may be more help than I could ever give

Thank you for your resize, but the reason I didn't choose a smaller version or higher compression is to keep the example in high quality for better judgment. I have almost unlimited bandwith so this is no problem.

Back on topic, I know there are various topics on skin retouch, but I want to try to determine the technique specifically used in the example I linked.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~honey/fotografie/downloads/skin_smooth.jpg

In technical terms, it's called the Awful Bad Technique. You blur heavily, remove shape and texture and then high pass texture over the top with a lot of excessive sharpening after so you get that really sandpaper like texture to go with your 1997 CG model look. Throw in a touch of straight up airbrushing to make the skin completely without change in tone and color. Sometimes you can throw some noise in as well if it's not gritty enough for you. Basically, what you are after is pancake makeup mixed with cement, paint and sand and then baked at 700 degrees for an hour. Hope that helps.

Now go get your eyes checked. I know it may have been awhile since you've seen an actual woman in person and up close, but maybe look at a photograph if the restraining orders prevent you from doing so.

Ant is right.

I would highly recommend not pursuing this technique, as it only leads to a dead-end. It might get results that you like now, but in a bit after you've gotten better at retouching you'll look back on it and realize how fake it all looks.

I would suggest finding posts about Dodge and Burn (D&B) for a more professional approach. This is a much more powerful (not to mention professional) tool. To see how it's used within an entire workflow, check out this post:

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/photo-retouching/18112-video-beauty-retouch.html

It'll give you a good idea of a pretty professional workflow. Hope that helps!

Yeah and look at that video too if a professional workflow is a completely unworkable flat file. This is so you learn how to deal with the situation when the client comes back next day and says, "sorry mate her skin looks like someone painted Dulux Summer breeze 250 all over her face, you need to do that again, and we need it before 6", you will have to rework the whole thing from scratch. Good luck

markzebra brings up a good point, i've seen a few guys who don't know/like to work in layers, which is a major PAIN when picking up their files and trying to move forward or in some cases backwards...

Hendrik

I understand that you like what you saw and thats ok if its what you are looking for.
It looks like it was blurred a lot, the detail recaptured with a mask, a noise layer added to the top of that and the opacity modified, then the original shot was pasted into a layer above it, opacity lowered to retain some of the "noise" below it.
Then it looks like they did a merge up of the layers and retained the detail mask. On that layer it looks like the emboss filter was run and then the highpass filter used to sharpen the whole image.

Again if this is what you like good luck.

But if you are trying to learn retouching towards a certain "look" or "style" please don't use it for paying work. Use it to learn what works and what does not work. Any info is good info because it will tell you what to use and what to avoid. Part of the techniques you learn from this might be good individually but it is doubtful they will be good as a whole.

Good Luck again.

Chris

In technical terms, it's called the Awful Bad Technique. You blur heavily, remove shape and texture and then high pass texture over the top with a lot of excessive sharpening after so you get that really sandpaper like texture to go with your 1997 CG model look. Throw in a touch of straight up airbrushing to make the skin completely without change in tone and color. Sometimes you can throw some noise in as well if it's not gritty enough for you. Basically, what you are after is pancake makeup mixed with cement, paint and sand and then baked at 700 degrees for an hour. Hope that helps.

Now go get your eyes checked. I know it may have been awhile since you've seen an actual woman in person and up close, but maybe look at a photograph if the restraining orders prevent you from doing so.

See, now that's what it's about. Putting in the effort in everything you do.
Even if it's a comment on bad retouching in the form of a hilarious post.

Chris says the same thing in much more diplomatic way.
Gotta appreciate both.

No one can live up to professional standards in the beginning. Learning is a process of finding out what works and doesn't work for you. If, in doing that, someone wants to learn a few techniques that wouldn't be considered "professional," you shouldn't be bashed for it.

Ant quite possibly may be a badass. But he doesn't need to prove it by ridiculing OP when all he asked is a simple question.


To reiterate some of Doug's observations: We WELCOME new threads, questions, issues, etc. There are many RetouchPRO members who are ready and willing to help or advise -- in all forums, not just this one that focuses on manipulation.

Rookies, newbies and those with little experience take note: There's no shame being at or near the bottom of the learning curve, regardless of the topic of interest. All the "old pros" started at the same place you did: The Beginning.

So if you're sitting on a question, why not take a leap of faith and start a thread? There's no risk. You won't lose your job -- unless you're at work, posting on company time and get caught! Be assured you won't get bashed, hassled or laughed at like you did at school or perhaps other online venues. We do "respect" well here at RetouchPRO.

I believe you will be pleasantly surprised and there's a great chance will learn something.
__________________
~Danny~

Thank you for all responses. I think ANT has something to compensate, so I forgive his constructive reply. ;) I'm always looking for better techniques. I'm not a pro retoucher and I have still many thinks to learn. I confess I have used degrunge a few times and was amazed how quickly you can clean the skin.

Maybe the examples are a bit too clean and the texture too regular.

It seems you all agree dodging and burning is a better technique and after seeing the movie linked, many steps are necessary for better skin. I will take a look into all your suggestions. Thanks!

i think Ant summed it up quite well, i've never been able to use any sort of de-grundge technique with any success..it never seems to look right...

I always enjoy Ant's comment and frankness...he is always "right on"...so I always give him a "A" for is assessment. On the otherhand, I very seldom see any constructive help. I guess we must take the good with the bad. I'm sure Ant you know a lot, but you sure don't share it. I'm sure you've spend years and years learning and probably have taken your share of criticism..and you probably have signed some sort of secrecy agreement, but for God's sakes it would be nice if you could share a practice or a resource or something. Thank God for individuals like Chris, but Ant, I do miss you when you aren't around...your comments are always amusing!

Actually, Ant does share. He keeps on reiterating one very important fact that some retouchers tend to neglect by not training their eyes to see. You need to know how to differentiate what's good and what's bad, and the kind of end result you should expect from your own work before you even open that file. This process of pre-visualization is just as important as any other area in the art field. Painters do sketch after sketch before they actually make contact with the canvas. Film and animation artists sketch out the entire storyboard to help them set up shots and to establish how things should look. Retouching is the same thing, you need to have some sort of visual thinking or you're going to waste a lot of time outputting the same result that you're trying to improve upon.

Right On PM

I might not have Ant's gift for candor at times but he does get his point across.

Chris

Chris...don't sell yourself short..you have an amazing gift...you provide good critique but also suggestions and guidance...same for PM.

This board is very valuable for me and I appreciate all responses.

I'm a photographer and not a proffesional retoucher. My clients are mostly models. The dodge and burn technique is something I will try this weekend, but it seems very time-consuming, but I guess there is no free ride in this. I always strive for perfection, so time is something I'm willing to invest.

A few questions

#1 If I want 'vogue-cover' quality for my models's skin, dodge and burn is THE technique to use? (I know there are more things to do, but I'm only talking about the skin now)

#2 Is degrunge useless for real quality retouch? I'm thinking about using it with a high radius high-pass (20-30 range for 12MP portrait). The effect is not smoothing the skin, but more smoothing the tonal differences with such a high radius?

I understand what you are saying, but personally I’m a bit different. I always love to teach and what I have learned in 30 years I’m willing to teach in 30 minutes (I actually do this as an instructor in another field). No problem with that. For me it sounds like an silly attempt to protect your market, but some experts are forgetting I’m not your competition, just as 99,99 percent of this board isn’t. Business is a LOT more then skills, but that’s another topic. The purpose of this forum, other forums, but also magazines like ‘Photoshop Creative’ is too teach each other new skills and stimulate/motivate each other to create something beautiful. … but maybe I’m wrong in that assumption.

I know there are a lot more steps involved to create this ‘Vogue’ quality. For one thing I always use a MUA, very fundamental for a good result. In post-processing I retouch more then only the skin, but I think I can do better. I use(d) the degrunge method, and it’s better than applying a soft focus filter, but I always try to go for something better. Well, you already teached me that I should forget degrunge and use dodge and burn instead. I’m thankful for that. I only hope someone can give me more useful ideas. I’m not asking for the complete package, only the skin.

The one thing that has been talked about endlessly here, is the subject of skin retouching. Not sure why but for some reason excluding all the other subjects. As far as I can see the advice is always the same, if you don't have the patience to do it properly, don't do it at all. There are many other technical skills that have not even been touched on - color, hair, anatomy,lighting, and the best way to get it is to do what nearly everyone has had to do and work it out for yourself.

You will find that many people who contribute here have had work published in Vogue, myself included. There is a massive market, 16 worldwide editions of Vogue alone, and at least 8 that people here might work on images for, either editorial or otherwise. So are quite well qualified to tell you how to get the standard if anyone would listen. As retoucher you are only as good as your source material, if you've been spoiled for a while with great source then you are in no position to get too patronising with people who have no access to it, thats my opinion. it becomes much more easy to see how inappropriate these cheap techniques are, when you do.

I know there are MANY other aspects making a good picture, but if I want to learn something, it’s for me easier to cut the whole into smaller pieces.

On a photographers tradeshow in the Netherlands Adrien Hendrickx spoke and demonstrated some of his skills for the audience. He motivated me to do something more for the pictures I take. I’m an expert and teacher in two other fields, and I love to tell people how they can get better. I hope they will surpass me at some time and maybe they can do something in return.

The statement above ‘They certainly don't want to give away all the secrets of the store so someone else can come in, with little effort, and basically take away their means to make a living’, feels for me personally odd and I never saw before on any forum I have visited. Maybe I haven’t visited too many forums or maybe this is something typical for (advanced) retouchers? It’s a statement that gives me the feeling: ‘you can come to play, but we won’t learn you to play it well’. I thought advanced skin retouching is a well known bunch of techniques, certainly not a secret method, but I’m wrong as it seems.(?) I know his statement is not applying for all, although it suggests it. Fortunately many are willing to share their 'secrets'. :)

Advanced retouching is for me quite new. Maybe this is way I don’t see the whole picture (no pun) immediately or how to advance in the most logical way. The obvious is not always obvious for people with lesser skills. Of course, inventing the wheel all over again is a good teacher, but not always the most effective. The discussions and tutorials I have seen on this board all seem a bit basic, but maybe I didn’t find the real gems yet or am not reading them correctly. I’m willing to do it properly, but only need to know if this is the right track (degrunging wasn’t as it seems).

My first step is to try the Dodge and Burn technique. I need some time to digest the information already available on this board. I think all already gave me good advice, and I really appreciate the time you all want to invest in newbie’s. :thumbsup: :)

i wish skin talk was banned for 1 month.....i would love to see if any new (retouching) threads would even be started?

i wish skin talk was banned for 1 month.....i would love to see if any new (retouching) threads would even be started?

Well you only need one good tutorial and we don't have to aks anymore LOL

i wish skin talk was banned for 1 month.....i would love to see if any new (retouching) threads would even be started?


And what do you think would be a good replacement/addition?

Chris

CHRIS: I would go for color adjustments...I struggle with this :D Many others do as well...I read somewhere on the net that the right color adjustment can make a picture look sharper...

But I think retouchpro should yet again divide the threads into other under forums...F.ex retouch - color - skin - hair - eyelashes or something like this...Maybe this would be better to look out for what we are trying to learn here...There is a lot of skin talk, maybe because that's sticks out the most from portraits...


Gerry

For the guys "in the know", could we just take one simple photo and you take us through the work flow? I constantly see posts of what someone is doing wrong instead of showing an approach one should take in order to do it right. I think this is what the poster was asking in the first place. Or as Markzebra eludes, maybe there is no mystery or secrets to retouching if one has a good photo to begin with. Maybe we just need to become better photographers and not retouchers?

Yes think of it more as image making or painting. Some people seem to come at it thinking more of cheating or tricks. For some reason of all the best retouchers I've met, probably more than half, have a photography background or training - NOT a design, computing, or art background.

Color is a huge subject, with endless things to say, well worth many threads. Perhaps not a subject people understand the full importance of when first starting, but a deep knowledge of digital color can lift average skills much higher. It at the root of everything; one example, being able to understand and visualize the distinction between color and tone is essential in good skin work. These things perhaps people like us take for granted, and can't understand how others get it so wrong. But for people with no real visual background, and I've had to work with a few recently! certainly need help in these areas.

To me it depends what you want and expect from a tool. Most so-called “ high-end” work begins with professional models, good skin, and excellent makeup. De-grunge is not needed in that case and would look unnatural if applied.

If however you have a less than perfect model that has blotchy skin then de-grunge is an excellent technique that will save much time and do just as good at the beginning as D&B and a hell of a lot faster.

It is all in the technique however… if applied wrong it will make a mess but with some practice it is a great tool and time saver. If used correctly it will give you a very good foundation to build on.

De-grunge does even the tone and may remove some needed depth…But this is easily rectified with D&B but with a lot less work.

It is one of many tools and well worth the time to learn.

I have seen examples on this site that when de-grunge was used are just as good, if not better in some cases, then the work of the self proclaimed experts.

Absolute perfection in skin is very over-rated by some on this site. Check for yourself…get a good fashion magazine and as you turn the pages pay close attention to every model and their skin.

You will see all types of techniques from perfect skin to illustration. Within these groups you will see many examples with far from perfect skin. It all depends on the look you want to achieve. When you know what that look is any tool will do to get there.



Butch

My attempt to reveal the SKIN "Secret"

[QUOTE=Hendrik;187719]
#1 If I want 'vogue-cover' quality for my model's skin, dodge and burn is THE technique to use? (I know there are more things to do, but I'm only talking about the skin now)
QUOTE]

These are just a few things that I think are "SKIN" related:

1. You must be a highly skilled Mechanic at using Photoshop or other comparable programs and know how to use ALL the tools in your tool box.
2. You have to be an artistic surgeon with a working knowledge of the anatomical parts you are working on and be able to use ALL the surgical tools available to you within the software package.
3. You must have a Photographers eye for detail and the effects of light and shadow and be able to duplicate what the photographer THOUGHT he or she saw in their minds eye, again being able to utilize all the tools available to you to duplicate and improve upon their vision.
4. You must have the expertise of a cosmetologist to achieve the perfect skin tones and color and know all the intricacies of applying and blending makeup in order to present a realistic interpretation of someone else's vision, again while being able to use ALL the tools available to you...
5. You must have the artistic ability to envision what your final outcome will look like before you even start on your project and the artistic talent to pull it off..
6. You must have the psychic abilities to know what the editors or clients really want and be prepared for the fact that whatever you submit.. they must/will find something wrong ..
7. You must not be intimidated when someone tells you it's crap. If it's true, they did you a favor.

When you achieve the afore mentioned 7 points of expertise through lots of practice, trial and error, tutorials, books, lessons, and any other means of learning the use of the software and have attained a good working knowledge of ALL the tools available in Photoshop or other comparable programs and you have learned the intricacies of the software then you should no longer have the question of how to achieve that so called "Perfect Skin" Because by that time... You Can Do IT!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dodge And Burn
A Simplified How TO

The following is a compilation from some other threads concerning D&B (which BTW is only one aspect of that perfect Vogue Retouch)

The dodge and burn tools that reside in the toolbar are destructive tools. They are used to adjust exposure, not shading. They are NOT used for D&B Skin Retouching to balance tones.

Before any retouching...MAKE A BACKGROUND COPY! Adjust the overall color of a photo (no point in retouching anything that will be blown out or hidden in shadows in the end). Adjust Levels and make color adjustments through curves (adjust the individual channels) and an occasional hue/sat layer. De-saturate the reds a bit... as most peoples' flaws are reddish in nature, this diminishes some the areas vs. actual bumps.

Remove the pimples and do light spotting on an image, Rubber stamp (Clone) out major stuff (on a copy of the original layer of course) at a minimum view of 100% or more on normal mode. Make sure that all the cloning/healing is completely unnoticeable. You should be able to hit hairs one by one with a small diameter healing brush You should be able to remove all the hairs without botching the texture. You want no big blur blobs or step_marks. Dodge&Burn later, to balance tones.

Even out the skin tones to be basically the same hue, saturation throughout a figure/face/image. Use the lasso with a fat amount of feathering on it and circle/trace areas that you want to adjust using curves. These typically will be very subtle in nature... with the middle of a channel's curve just pulled up or down a notch or 2.

With D&B(softlight) retouching always start in very close then, move out, and repeat. If you shrink your magnification by 50%, make your brush size correspondingly larger. That way, you won't actually be obliterating the D&B or healing strokes you already made at full size. It is not necessary to zoom in to whatever view the resolution of the image allows for viewing individual pixels. It is rare to go above 2-300% view. Most work is done at 100% or less. The further in you zoom you loose focus on what you are trying to achieve. It would help to keep two instances of an image open all the time. One is focused (set to view) the most you can of an image. While the other one has the zoom factor needed to do retouching. The larger updates as you go along so you can see what looks strange or where you need to go next.

The important thing is to get the hard stuff done at the bigger views and then progressively zoom out and using a larger brush and lower opacity, then brush some more.

Refer to already existing highlights/shadows and exaggerate and/or simplify them. Make a new layer, fill with 50% grey and set that layer to "Softlight" and paint black or white (again, 0% hardness on the brush, 100% opacity, 1-5% flow) to carve down or up. (or you can use two layers-- one for Dodge and one for Burn so you have more control on adjustments to each-- just remember if you use two layers you have to switch layers when you change colors!) Dodge and Burn sometimes adds saturation to the carved shadows. Dodging and burning into a grey layer will pretty much duplicate the effect of painting white and black, but sometimes it works better to use actual tones sampled from the image: a highlight that hasn't blown out, and a shadow that nice and dark, but still showing tone. This is useful if white and black are creating discoloration. Switch from dodging to burning and back again simply by pressing the "X" key (if using separate layers for D&B then switch layers also).

You can even do some minor dodging and burning directly on a second copy of the retouched image layer.. Keep it pure and simple. 0% hardness brush, still at about 1 to 3% flow. Simply lightly mask out what's overkill. You might even want to try plain old painting white on an empty layer set to "normal"__ 0% hardness on the brush, 100% opacity, 1% flow, "other dynamics" selected.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I recently read a post outlining step-by-step instructions for brain surgery (found here) (http://tinyurl.com/2wufd3)
I have even copied this mini brain surgery tutorial so I have quick access.. Now that I know the tools and their use... would you let me operate on your brain? I think NOT!
I also know how most magic tricks are accomplished and can do a few magic tricks myself...but.. knowing how they are done does not make me a magician. I know the mechanics but lack the practice and experience.. and a good magician, like a good retoucher, has to have more than one trick in his bag!

So, it would seem to me that the "BIG SECRET" everyone is hiding is actually one they have repeated over and over again...
"There is No Quick Fix, Learn all the tools and Practice Cubed!"

Thanks Olbaldy for this interesting post. I have a lot of work to do with it.

Sometimes I have a little problem to understand english expressions which makes me doubt. I will read your post quitely and after this I will ask for that expressións. Can I?

Chris, I think the same, maybe we have to create a new thread for that different items/techniques that KR have suggested. And I Agree with you that people normally don´t show much interest in things different than skin. For example: In photocompositing I always see the same threads and, perhaps, one new. Isn´t it?

I have seen examples on this site that when de-grunge was used are just as good, if not better in some cases, then the work of the self proclaimed experts.

Absolute perfection in skin is very over-rated by some on this site. Check for yourself…get a good fashion magazine and as you turn the pages pay close attention to every model and their skin.



Butch

Butch

I am not knocking Ro's degrunge technique. Every tool has its place. I have found with the images I work on that it doesn't help. But if, as you say, there are examples of the degrunge done on this forum that are also done with a technique used by "self proclaimed experts" and looks better I'd love to see them. I am always open to using tools in different ways and maybe I have tried the degrunge style incorrectly. (By the way, who are these self proclaimed experts so I might look for some of their work myself?)

Looking at the shots in magazines is a great way to see what the hot style is out there, or what level or photography/retouching is necessary to get ahead in this field. However it is best kept in mind that the retouching one sees is also how far the photographer or art director wishes it to go. Some go further and some not enough. To us, some of it looks bad but to whoever ok'd it it was what they wanted.
I don't think anyone has advocated absolute perfection when it comes to skin. Mostly people have wanted to know how to keep a natural texture and how to go about doing that. And one thing that is pretty consistent with photographers and art directors is that they don't want skin that has been rushed or that looks retouched. There is a place for Beauty retouching and a place for Glamour retouching.

Regards

Chris

Well, a lot of discussion, .. nice.

Chris, I loved your website, inspirational!

... but I also noticed the other 'experts' don't have one. Ant for example is mentioned as a great retoucher, but what is his website or portfolio? and who are the other experts and their websites?

All the work I've done at work I only have permission to show them in my printed portfolio, but not online. Some retouchers would only show their work to prospective clients and some retouchers would only show the finished work on their website for good reasons, such as there are people out there that would actually steal their work or link their work all over the net behind their back.

I am not knocking Ro's degrunge technique. Every tool has its place. I have found with the images I work on that it doesn't help. But if, as you say, there are examples of the degrunge done on this forum that are also done with a technique used by "self proclaimed experts" and looks better I'd love to see them. I am always open to using tools in different ways and maybe I have tried the degrunge style incorrectly. (By the way, who are these self proclaimed experts so I might look for some of their work myself?)

Looking at the shots in magazines is a great way to see what the hot style is out there, or what level or photography/retouching is necessary to get ahead in this field. However it is best kept in mind that the retouching one sees is also how far the photographer or art director wishes it to go. Some go further and some not enough. To us, some of it looks bad but to whoever ok'd it it was what they wanted.
I don't think anyone has advocated absolute perfection when it comes to skin. Mostly people have wanted to know how to keep a natural texture and how to go about doing that. And one thing that is pretty consistent with photographers and art directors is that they don't want skin that has been rushed or that looks retouched. There is a place for Beauty retouching and a place for Glamour retouching.

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris

I came off much too harsh and that was not my intent and my post was not directed at any individual…I apologize if it was taken that way.

Over the last year or two there have been many requests of skin technique with many posted examples. Most all had posters using de-grunge as part of their technique. I personally found their work to be generally on the same level as strictly D&B or other so-called professional techniques… this is the so-called I was talking about… I did not state that correctly in my previous post... I was trying to say technique not people. Techniques are not professional… the people using them can be.

I find the technique to be fast and effective especially when used on less than perfect blotchy skin. At least as a foundation to further use traditional procedures.

This is not to say it could not be done as well or better with traditional techniques after hours of work. If I can do acceptable work faster with a technique I will use it over established procedures.

All techniques were new at one time or another and they received their share of resistance.

I guess I just hated to see the OP discouraged from experimenting with an excellent tool, in certain circumstances, because it was not considered professional.

I’ll choose my words a lot more carefully in the future… this is a good forum for open discussion without the sniping that often occurs elsewhere. When I re-read my post I can sure see how it could be taken in the wrong way.

Butch

I think that Natalia Taffarel is considered as Hi End Retoucher and I have seen her using De-grunge in her workflow, very subtle, but use it. I don´t know if she is always applying that technique. Anyway, she doesn´t use it like "the way to quick fix". Is only a subtle move of a lot in her workflow.

I think there is no "quick key" to get profesional results.

Well, a lot of discussion, .. nice.

Chris, I loved your website, inspirational!

... but I also noticed the other 'experts' don't have one. Ant for example is mentioned as a great retoucher, but what is his website or portfolio? and who are the other experts and their websites?

he has a website...ask him :)

The problem I see is that there is rarely anyone asking to see this kind of stuff and this forum is driven by questions from people and not the other way around.

But there is also the issue of people not knowing what questions to ask.
Who's gonna ask about under color removal or gray color removal
when they don't know it exists? ;)

A list like KR's is a good way to make people aware of such things
to begin asking questions.



This discussion should be moved to its own thread so that it doesn't distract from the posters question really.


If it hasn't happened already, kick it off Chris. :)

But there is also the issue of people not knowing what questions to ask.
Who's gonna ask about under color removal or gray color removal
when they don't know it exists? ;)


i mentioned the term UCR to my younger co-worker (who has a bachelors degree in photography)..she asked what that was and i replied i'd let her know in time, in all fairness to her she's worked in a photo lab for the past 10 years and has little knowledge of pre-press and printing...

he has a website...ask him :)

I don't really think Ant wants a bunch of people asking for his website/work etc.
Otherwise he would make it available in his profile or something.

ant, like many other, make online portfolios available to clients and prospects only for a few reasons.

-guy who taught me has had a bunch of his images ripped off online, where people try to pass them off as work they did. also, to respect the photograpahers. we work with some very high profile clients, and they don't like their befores hung out for display.

not everyone

also, i'm not trying to take away from original poster's thread, so I will end my comments here. just wanted to give the site a nudge, see what comes out of it.

-i'm down to help others with whatever little tips i can, not gonna write tutorials or anything like that! not trying to be the robinhood of retouchpro!


every gangsta here's on they're own.

Hi Chris

I came off much too harsh and that was not my intent and my post was not directed at any individual…I apologize if it was taken that way.

Over the last year or two there have been many requests of skin technique with many posted examples. Most all had posters using de-grunge as part of their technique. I personally found their work to be generally on the same level as strictly D&B or other so-called professional techniques… this is the so-called I was talking about… I did not state that correctly in my previous post... I was trying to say technique not people. Techniques are not professional… the people using them can be.

I find the technique to be fast and effective especially when used on less than perfect blotchy skin. At least as a foundation to further use traditional procedures.

This is not to say it could not be done as well or better with traditional techniques after hours of work. If I can do acceptable work faster with a technique I will use it over established procedures.

All techniques were new at one time or another and they received their share of resistance.

I guess I just hated to see the OP discouraged from experimenting with an excellent tool, in certain circumstances, because it was not considered professional.

I’ll choose my words a lot more carefully in the future… this is a good forum for open discussion without the sniping that often occurs elsewhere. When I re-read my post I can sure see how it could be taken in the wrong way.

Butch

Nicely put Butch.

I didn't take it personally. I never tell anyone what to do, just to give suggestions as to what might work and what might not work.
I,and I think others, was just completely taken by surprise by it.

There are a lot of images that the degrunge works well with, and not just on flesh but clothing patterns and stuff. Used judiciously and carefully it is a step forward for most. Used without thought as to the ending is going to be surprising.

Chris

But there is also the issue of people not knowing what questions to ask.
Who's gonna ask about under color removal or gray color removal
when they don't know it exists? ;)

A list like KR's is a good way to make people aware of such things
to begin asking questions.




If it hasn't happened already, kick it off Chris. :)

I have no clue how to do this. But it should start off with most of the posts after and including KR's list.

Chris

How did we get some Mods in here???

Why isn't Chris a Mod??!!

We need some topic splitting done.
I'll pm some and see what happens. :)

I have used the degrunge and I think it has its value, one aspect it could be useful in a professional retouch is maybe even-out subtle color differences (high radius). It doesn’t change the texture, only color.

--------------------
In this age were Internet and online content is so important, I can’t believe that a professional doesn’t have a website or reel. It’s so very outdated if you only have a printed portfolio. Afraid someone steals your work? C’mon, you aren’t serious, are you?

So, I ask every expert politely to make their website/reel known.

I’m new here, so maybe I’m out-of-line, but if someone claims he’s an expert but can’t show any work I really begin to think …’Is he an expert or just a kid with some Photoshop skills bluff in a forum’. I have seen it many times as a moderator on another board. :P

FYI: I started a couple new threads based on content in this one. See new topics in Retouching forum.

Let's keep this one (for better/worse) on skin. :)

Thanks Danny! :)

Thanks Danny.

Hendrik

I can understand why there are not more online portfolios. With all this technology, it is easy to create one, but it is just as easy to steal one. I worry about it all the time. There will always be a way found. And I have found some of my images out there, which doesn't make me happy, but it is a small price to pay if I can find them and get them off their websites. If....

Chris

Hendrik,

None of the members here is bluffing. I don't think you can bluff something that is so specific as retouching. Most of us here know what we're doing. We can just tell from the post to find out if the poster knew what he/she is doing.
yes, it's the year 2008...it's very easy to create a website nowadays. But, the copyright law has also gotten very sensitive and complicated. Not all retouchers get permission to use the images that they worked on. I know...you spent hours and hours working on the images, but they're not yours. Here's a scenario...I post an image here that I retouched at work just for the members here to see, but then someone here takes it off of this website and posts it on other forums all over of the web. Someone at my work or my boss sees it on the internet and traces back to original retoucher that worked on it, which is me, and I get fired just because I violated the confidentiality agreement that I signed when I took this job. Do you think any retoucher wants to risk his/her career for this?

Yes if...
I mailed some samples to some guy I worked with about two weeks ago. No response, now I'm terrified hes going to abuse them. You got to protect your work. The point about confidentiality is important too, for a variety of reasons, not least because some of the befores of these people can make your hair stand on end!

you mean you didn't put some sort of copywrite symbol over them?

I understand the arguments, but I don’t think they’re all so very valid.

Let’s take Chris, he has a wonderful website and the images can be seen large, which is significant to see the details. I can see his style and his skills. He only has a small collection online, and I assume he has done more in his career. You don’t have to put a large quantity of images online nor the ones with legal or ethical restrictions.

Someone can steal your work, yes … so what? If you see an image used without your permission, just take legal steps. Nobody can use your images for any serious work anyway. They are protected you know.

It’s my opinion any serious professional should have a website to show his/her skills. Just a few images are enough; just take a snapshot of your wife/husband/friend/neighbor or whoever to have an image to show your skills on.

Let’s assume I’m a publisher and I’m seeking for a skilled retoucher. The first step is to inform myself who are available; the next step is to view their websites. If I must choose, for example, between Ant and Chris, I would choose Chris in an instant, because I can see his work without any extra effort.

Maybe it’s not normal too have websites in your business, well this is the moment to distinct yourself from the mass.

They can steal your images, but not your talent.

Let's get back on track or start another thread on copyright and web safety...

Let's get back on track or start another thread on copyright and web safety...

I agree, that’s something already discussed to death years ago.

I wanted too see how the experts retouch an image and especially the skin. I was amazed that some of the so called experts have no work they can show (besides Chris). Especially in this working field I think it’s strange.



Seriously, is this such a strange question? :confused:


-------------------------------------------------
[B][edit]
Since I’m going in circles and I don’t think the so called experts I mention are willing to share their work (or their 'secret techniques') I will stop with this thread. It’s going off-topic anyway.

All experts who showed their work or helped me with suggestions and real tips, thank you for your time and willingness, it’s really appreciated by me and other newbie’s.

I agree with you Hendrik. I don't see why people can't throw together a website (get a contractor from elance or rentacoder for 500 bucks that will design a breathtaking flash website for you) and put maybe just 5-6 images on there. Maybe even do some extra work by doing less important projects to the same high level of quality and getting permission from your client to display the before and afters.

But maybe some professionals are working exclusively for a magazine or retouching company and don't need to find extra work. Then they don't need a site because they don't need to woo potential clients. And they own no rights to any of the work that they do.

But I'll venture to say that your word holds a lot more weight if you show that you walk the walk instead of just talk the talk. Everyone here listens to what Chris has to say - partly because he offers great advice, of course, but also partly because he has a nice professional site with a few images that make an impression on anybody who visits. It's easy to believe that his future retouching DVD will sell more because of it as well.

I agree with you Hendrik. I don't see why people can't throw together a website (get a contractor from elance or rentacoder for 500 bucks that will design a breathtaking flash website for you) and put maybe just 5-6 images on there. Maybe even do some extra work by doing less important projects to the same high level of quality and getting permission from your client to display the before and afters.

But maybe some professionals are working exclusively for a magazine or retouching company and don't need to find extra work. Then they don't need a site because they don't need to woo potential clients. And they own no rights to any of the work that they do.

But I'll venture to say that your word holds a lot more weight if you show that you walk the walk instead of just talk the talk. Everyone here listens to what Chris has to say - partly because he offers great advice, of course, but also partly because he has a nice professional site with a few images that make an impression on anybody who visits. It's easy to believe that his future retouching DVD will sell more because of it as well.

Ant doesn't care if you believe his word or not. He sometimes gives good advice and he has bases to do so, but most of the time he is tired of ppl asking the same questions over and over and then DON'T EVEN LISTEN TO THE ANSWERS. Give it a rest.

You guys just CANNOT except the fact that some retouchers just DO NOT get permission to use the images they worked on to show online. Even if they did have permission to do so, they have the right not to show their online portfolio to the general public andt only show it to employers when they apply for a new job, or to prospective clients. Not every retoucher that has an online portfolio needs to show it publicly. The original owner of the images and the retoucher would prefer the images to stay at one place only and not all over the web. Try take legal actions on someone living overseas in a developing country for stealing your work.
The main focus of this forum is to help each other and contribute in the various topics in retouching, not a place to compete who has the best online portfolio. If you don't want to take advise from people who take the time to write it because they don't have an online portfolio available for the masses...just don't listen to them...it's as simple as that.

Another good reason for not posting a site would be the trafic it generates to your site. I'm a photographer. And when i keep an eye on the trafic on my web site i get to see how many people go see what, and i know it's because of my direct marketing. Then i have a fairly good idea how effective i was. Because most of the viewing is done by potential client. If i would post my site on every forum i would get a LOT more viewer but i could not use this tool as effectively.

I like when people post their site, but I Understand when they don't.

actually that is why Heyrad had to limit his before/afters to an email for password type protection. He had his bandwidth usage skyrocket because people browsing here went to his site and spent hours looking at his before/afters trying to figure out how he did something.
Remember that all the better retouchers here are in a business and that is what their websites are for, not for your educational purposes. Also all the extra traffic from these sites really screws with their traffic stats trying to see what is effective or not to the people they are targeting.

Try and see some before/afters on the Box's website, or many others, all they really need is the afters good finished product sells a service and not many clients need to see the befores.

As I mentioned in the very beginning, can we take just one decent generic photo and anyone could show the approach and results they achieved via the retouch. I'm sure everyone's approach would be slightly different..one not better than another, but different. I, for one, would certainly learn something. I'm more interested in someone showing me an approach they'd take vs what they've already done. Expecially the one's who tend to be the most critical of other's questions. Showing without explaining is not learning.

I agree Pixel Monkey completly.

I am photographer, not a pro-retocher (not yet), but I am working in that way.

First of all, I think we are very lucky in this forum, cause we have the oportunity to speak , ask and learn with really pro-retouchers. It doesn´t really matter if a pro dont show his work by website. Everybody is free to do that or not. And sometimes, they can´t. Me neither. I have hundreds fashion and beauty pictures to retouch, many of them retouched, but I have no permission to show it in web. May be in a future, but not yet.

Anyway, I am not looking for webs in this forum, I only want to speak with people who likes to do the same, retouch. We can exchange information, opinions, points of view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2mE8_ZN4ho

d and b starts at 5.30.
by the way can anyone tell me what happened at 320?

it looks like they copied part of the cheek and ran the high pass filter on it and moved that area to another part of the face...

it looks like they copied part of the cheek and ran the high pass filter on it and moved that area to another part of the face...

Yes, thats the way to restore some texture into an un-textured area. Have to change the blend mode of the copied texture, after high pass, to overlay, softlight or vivid light. This last blend mode looks harder than the other and you have to modify the opacity of the layer to apply it very subtle.

Hope it helps.

Interesting, thanx pixelzombie, and javiert.
I'll have to play around with that, I don't think I ever heard of that method before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2mE8_ZN4ho

d and b starts at 5.30.
by the way can anyone tell me what happened at 320?

Uhhh... She's explained here before.

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/photo-retouching/18112-video-beauty-retouch.html

which page though?

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/photo-retouching/18112-video-beauty-retouch-4.html#post164812