Greg?

I'm glad you asked! :D

There are actually multiple "GUT's" but none have been fully proven. (not enough data I guess....) I have not read much about it in several years but it's essentially an attempt by physicists to "unify the weak and strong electromagnetic interactions" It's basically an attempt to explain every interaction in nature. i.e. - A "theory of everything".

Anyone else care to elaborate or correct my glaring errors...I can't remember if GUT is the same as Unified Field Theory or a part of it... ??

Ughhh.. my head is already spinning. You are lucky that you can mix those left and right brain functions. My dad (the NASA meterologist ) is opposite me (the artist) and neither one of us venture very far to "the other side", though I am better at it than he. :)

I tried once to venture a little too far over to the "other side" and found my head spinning as well! My days learning computer languages were very brief...but I do like to read about all types of science and get a lot of inspiration for my art, even if I do not always fully understand it all!

You don't live in Roswell, do you?

No, worse...Los Alamos!

Los Alamos... we almost moved there a while back for a job. How do you like it? Didn't you just move there from somewhere else?

I moved here from North Carolina...it's a very long story but so far I love New Mexico. Los Alamos on the other hand is a bit strange...it's like living in the "Truman Show", were everything is a bit too perfect. No crime, everyone seems very much the same and you always get the feeling you are being watched... I personally can't wait to move to Albuquerque or Santa Fe!

Originally posted by G. Couch
I tried once to venture a little too far over to the "other side" and found my head spinning as well! My days learning computer languages were very brief...but I do like to read about all types of science and get a lot of inspiration for my art, even if I do not always fully understand it all!

I don't think that science/math/physics are the "other side." Quite the contrary. I am a math teacher, and have always been extremely interested in the nature and origins of the universe. And I am an artist. I don't see any conflict at all, since to me, math concepts and scientific intuitions are also right hemisphere abilities, just as art.

I follow the theory that EVERYTHING is math, which itself is basically "pattern." The great physicist Archibald Wheeler once said of the universe, "All is geometry." Yes, fractal geometry to be specific. As another physicist more recently put it, the "universe is a giant growing fractal."

Fractals are cool. They underlie everything: Life, geology, economic systems, human relationships, human bodies, galaxies...everything you can name has math, fractal math, at its most basic level. Fractal graphs as you know make those wonderful endlessly zoomable designs, so their attachment to art is there as well. More importantly, they allow us to see the world/universe as the glorious whole that it is. Fractal patterns, on vastly different scales, from cosmic galaxies to sub-atomic particles, are the real "grand unification" in the universe.

Don't make the mistake of confusing science and math with strings of computations...that's just the busy work...like cleaning the brushes is to an artist. That's not what math/science are at their fundamental level. Look deeper and you will see the most beautiful art ever created. The entire universe is a zoomable fractal of endless color and form and meaning.

Phyllis :)

Interesting post Phyliss!

I do agree that math, science and art all share some common ground but not everyone has the capacity to fully understand each area. I like math but I know that I will never be able to comprehend the more advanced concepts...at least not on a purely mathematical level. I can understand things on a general or philosophical level but ask me to write code or solve a complex equation and my mind goes blank. On the other hand I can carry on a conversation about art or philosophy and maintain logical arguments even when dealing with the most complex concepts. I guess some people reason and learn better on a verbal and/or visual level than a numerical one. It's like being given one of those math problems where Joe gets on a train going one direction and Jill gets on one going in the opposite, traveling at a different speed. Some people would solve it using just numbers but I used to draw little pictures and diagrams of trains and try to visualize the distance! 9 times out of 10 I came up with the right answer (got all A's in college math!), it was just a different method of arriving at the answer.

Fractals are fascinating! I see them as just being representations of a more profound underlying theory...like "GUT". There has to be some sort of basic pattern that describes why pattern can exist even in chaos. I think part of the problem scientists are having at arriving at that theory is that things DO NOT make sense when you get to a subatomic level. You can only go so far before conventional math and science fall apart and particles begin behaving in a seemingly random and contradictory manner. The universe is, as you say "a zoomable fractal" ...but only up to a point and then things start to fall apart. Maybe we have just not developed a complex enough math to solve this enigma or maybe it really is pure randomness...there are a lot of philosophical and religious questions this raises!

You sound like a cool math teacher! My geometry teacher did not even know what a fractal was and had convinced herself that you could somehow explain the structure of nature using only Euclidian geometry! ...it was somewhat hard to pay attention in class...

everything is a bit too perfect; ...you always get the feeling you are being watched...


We hear you, and we are not amused...:devious: :robot:

"Organization for the promulgation of perfection in Los Alamos"




:lol: :wavey: ;) :lol: :wavey: ;)

The entire universe is a zoomable fractal of endless color and form and meaning. -- P. Stewart

Such a wonderful sounding concept! You sound better than all the math instructors I ever had all rolled up into one...


but I'd need to be in your class for years to have any chance of understanding what you mean...

Greg--- where is the big debate? I am anxiously awaiting! :)

CJ - LOL!...might not be far from the truth!

chiquitita - I don't know! Looks like the big debate is more- can you fully understand and explain the universe through mathematics and scientific inquiry, or are some things unexplainable and therefore we will never fully be able to develop a "theory of everything"?

Nobody has a theory of everything. Nobody knows it all. That is why there are so many different religions. People filling in the holes of what they can't figure out.

Originally posted by chiquitita
Nobody has a theory of everything. Nobody knows it all. That is why there are so many different religions. People filling in the holes of what they can't figure out.

That's the controversy. I would agree with you that some things will remain unknowable simply by their nature...but I could be wrong and certainly would not consider myself an expert.

I guess if a scientist can somehow develop a theory that explains every event and physical interaction in nature, it raises some intriguing questions...it would follow that you could predict the beginning and end of the universe and all events in between... if the theory holds up anyway. But if it's all explainable by scientific means, what need is there for a God to be running things? You could still say a God got the ball rolling and set things in motion, but no longer plays any part in the function or control of the universe. Interesting questions and I have no clue as to what any answers are....but it does serve as creative fuel for the fire! :)

Hmmm,

Well, I guess I just don't believe that a scientist could come up with such theories that would explain everything. There would be a hole somewhere. Nobody has come close to doing this yet, so I would venture to say it will never be done. I don't say that for religious reasons, just because I know nobody is that perfect.

-----
Sort of along these lines.... I got this video in the mail tonight to my business address. It was just called "Jesus"... a regular video ... just like someone bought it and stuck it in my mailbox.. there was no mailing address or postage.. just a video in plastic shrink wrap. It says on the web site about the video:

"First of all, it was a GIFT. The video was given without any obligation and you are welcome to view it or pass it on to others. It was paid for by members of your community who want those in their area to have a historically accurate view of the life of Jesus. "

I was speaking with my mom when I got home and telling her about this and I told her that if I was Jesus, I would change my name, you know? Wouldn't it be so annoying to have all these people running around saying they know what you would say about something, yet their views are all conflicting, and all they do is fight about you? It is really funny if you think about it... the people... everyone running around thinking they know everything!
Poor Jesus... I would hate that.

:depressed

Isn't the answer 42?

In another forum I used to moderate I used to mess with the minds of some of the amateur cosmologists there with my assertion that "infinity" doesn't exist, it was simply made up by mathematicians because, if it didn't exist, their formulas wouldn't work.

On my really cranky days I'd go the next step and explain that, since there was no proof for infinity existing, it was accepted on faith, and therefore math was really a religion :)

Even Doug has "cranky days"...further proof that there are no real constants in the universe! You do know however, that cruelty to cosmologists (even amateur ones) is particularly bad for karma...you now have a good chance of spending your next life as a particle of interstellar dust...

Al - I felt like a real geek when I laughed out loud at your post! Been a while since I read that book. :)

chiquitita - My hypothesis is that scientists come up with these theories as a means of getting our hopes up...and then never deliver the goods. If they could explain everything then they would all be out of a job! ;)

True... very true.

"infinity" doesn't exist, it was simply made up by mathematicians because, if it didn't exist, their formulas wouldn't work.
A play on words in the same vein, from physicist JE Cohen (from the book "A random walk in science"):
Alexander the Great was warned by an oracle that if he crossed a certain river he would meet his death. Now forewarned is four-armed, which is an odd number of arms for a man to have. But we all know that man has an even number of arms and the only number which can be odd and even, is infinity; hence Alexander the Great had an infinite number of arms. So, Alexander the Great did not exist because he had an infinite number of arms.

(Works better verbally than in print!)