The one and only reason for this thread is because I'm concerned about the possibility of the site becoming less inviting to many of us.

While the results of this thread will not set policy, I guarantee that the results will be monitored by the administrator of the site.

There are probably several reasons why some of you wouldn't want to reply to this thread, so I'm attaching a poll. You don't have to be verbal, but please take time to vote, even if you don't agree with my way of thinking. The way you vote could have an effect on the way things are handled on the site.

When I first came to RetouchPro, I don't know how many members there were.........maybe 20 - 30? Now we have over 800, and with that many members comes a variety of personalities. Given the proper environment, personalities will clash, and the potential for flame wars becomes a reality. This is not what most of us want. It was the lack of that, that made the site attractive to many of us. What can we do to prevent it? I feel that debate, in most cases, is healthy, but I do not think that this site is the place to debate certain issues. These issues fall into the category I'll describe as having "High chance of being controversial". It is my opinion that these types of images/posts should not be allowed on the site simply because they open the door for personal conflict/flame wars. It should be up to the moderators to use their judgement on anything questionable. Of course, the owner of the site has the final say, and he will set the guidelines to be followed. I am simply offering my suggestions as food for thought. Please vote so your voice is heard. Let's keep the glue that brought us together, and ban the cancer that lives in our personalities.

Ed

The word "controversial" is so subjective. I haven't voted yet, but I will make a comment (which I have refrained from doing up to this point).

Doug has stated that what is appropriate for the site, generally, is whatever could be viewed by an 8 year old child. I can agree with that.

Some things may not be suited to my own personal values and tastes, but that doesn't make them objectionable to other members. And vice versa.

Perhaps another way to look at it is the way we do it where I work (a photo lab). We decline to print any images that depict something that would not be acceptable if seen on a public street.

I don't think there really is a way to please everyone, but I do suggest that if something does not suit someone's personal taste, that they may just decline to look...

Just my 2¢ worth....

Oh, I forgot to ask....

What is it exactly we're voting on?

1) That anything that could be construed as controversial should not be allowed on the site (posts, threads or images)

or

2) That it should be left up to Doug and the moderators to decide what is acceptable and what is not


I just couldn't quite decide what the question was...

Ed,

I am wondering the same thing as Jak? Would the vote be about what issues should be considered controversial or about who should determine what is controversial. I think the poll is a great idea, I am just not sure what is being voted on... ?

Jak,

Unfortunately (I think), what can / should be viewed by an 8-year-old child is very subjective anymore, though it shouldn't be, too bad people's parenting skills aren't moderated as well as this site. ;)

I won't vote until there is clarification on what the vote would mean, but I will say where I stand.

RetouchPRO is a safe and friendly place for people to show their photo editing skills and learn new ones. This must never be allowed to change. Anyone who is unwilling to be friendly and helpful to all others in the forum should be kicked out of the membership.

Controversy is an inherent part of freedom. Controversy can help clarify thinking and can be helpful, or it can be destructive -- the result depends on the reactions of those engaged in the debate. I would never vote to eliminate all controversial subjects.

The forums that concentrate on the skill-building issues related to photo retouching/restoration rarely find any issues that cause anger or outrage. The conflicts that have occured, to the best of my recollection, relate to the creative/artistic production of work shown either in the Gallery or in an individual thread created to showcase the work.

Art is by its very nature, subjective, and thus often courts with controversy.

Possible Solutions: A or B; or A and B
A. Eliminate all uploads or links of artwork which is not a direct restoration or retouch of an approved photo. Photo art challenges could continue as long as they are based upon an approved subject photo. Artists who want to post a creative work would go to those websites that encourage creativity.

B. If an image or post is found to be offensive, report it to the moderator or to Doug. Then go on to another thread or another forum and concentrate on the subject matter that does not offend you.

It is so VERY important to save RetouchPRO from losing it's essential kindness to all members. Change will always occur, but this basic requirement (members, especially newbies, must be able to trust that they will not be flamed) must not change for this website to succeed.

Sorry for not being clear on that. I think we're voting on letting the moderator's (with Doug's approval) decide whether or not there's a good chance for the image/post to cause problems. They could always wait to see if there's a problem before using the delete key. The important thing, to me, is that we eliminate, as much as possible, personal conflicts and flame wars.

Ed

I'm not clear on what Ed's "suggestion" is.

My personal feeling on this issue is that, I would like to see this site, and the images posted here, limited to the topic of restoration. I don't believe the idea would stifle any artist's, just limit their contributions to this particular site. I like Doug's "8 yr old viewer" guideline. That sounds like the best idea to me.

Another thought, limit galleries to members who have been active for x number of days. (Why fight controversy with individuals who are not active, contributing members?)

2 cents: I have zero tolerance for people crying about their freedom of experssion and rights at this site. Doug has set a standard, it they are not willing to abide by it, they should graciously leave, and find a more appropriate venue.

Vikki,

My suggestion is that images/posts that, in the mind of the moderators, have a high chance of being controversial, be deleted before anything gets started. In the event that there are questionable situations, the moderator could wait to see if a problem is forthcoming, then nip it in the bud if there is.

For what it's worth, I feel the same way as you. But the site has grown too much for that to happen, in my opinion. I don't think it will ever again be strictly restoration/retouching, and I have to admit that I've been tempted to try my hand at some of the things I see in the "art" section. But that's not why I came to the site, and it wouldn't bother me in the least if we went back to the old days. They were a lot safer.

Ed

I think everyone has a very good point, and I totally agree with the suggestion Vikki made:

Let's just give users a trial a limitation on how many posts they make and not allow them to put in pictures. But if they prove themselves to be a professional, mature and CONTRIBUTING member in the forums then we can make make certain allowances.

the 8 yr old guideline is a bit much if you ask me.

WE ARE PROFESSIONALS.


If you're a 30-60 yr old and you're offended by a 1930's photo of a restoration of the members of a Brothel, then you're not being professional and you're in the wrong business.

Rick

I think, though, that what Ed is suggesting has always been the policy, right? That is why some things are removed and some things are kept.

What happened most recently is that a moderator chose not to remove something and therefore it caused controversy, am I correct?

I guess there just needs to be a commitment to accept what is there or not there, the way it is, and not get worked up about it.

If the policies are made vividly clear to new and old members, than any issue that comes up will just be seen as irrational and everyone will move on and ignore it.

Originally posted by chiquitita
I think, though, that what Ed is suggesting has always been the policy, right?

Close, but not exactly. I'm suggesting that the moderators take into account the subject matter of images/posts, and how they are presented. As an example, let's say that Jack Brock cares deeply about animal rights. Chris knows this. Now, Peggy Sue posts something where she talks about boiling cats in water. Chris should know that this post is cause for concern. He can then delete that post because there is a good chance there will be problems arising over it.

Ed

Ed,

I think that, taking every person's personal feelings about each and every subject into account is impossible, and as someone else posted before, there would be nothing left.

Now, if there are very obvious things, like the example you stated, it makes sense.

Here is an idea - what if we just followed the law? Nudity in public is illeagal (in this country). Child porn is illeagal, animal cruelty is illeagal. Those things shouldn't be posted.

Just a thought, so that it isn't so subjective.

I have an idea!

Let's just get back to doing what makes RetouchPro great - post question, post answers, post examples that demonstrate techniques, talk about retouching photos, talk about how we run our businesses, how we deal with customers, how we deliver our work, how we charge for our time, what we like about retouching, what we dislike, how we attract more of what we like and how we gracefully turn away what we don't like, share enough about ourselves through observations about our lives whether mundane or exciting so that we become "real" people to each other, real family, REAL important.

Margaret

Eliminating anything that could be viewed as controversial is a mistake. One of the obvious problems with it is who gets to decide what's controversial? The community standard in one place is different than in another, even in the same town it can be confusing. In Berkeley, for example, near where I work, you can read Playboy at the library's magazine rack, but the American flag was forced off of all the fire trucks because it was viewed as offensive to some in the community. Did it occur to Jak, for example, that her avatar is offensive to some people, even people who live in her own country? Some of you may not believe that, but it's true. That makes it controversial. Should it be removed? The internet is global, and this is a site that can be viewed and participated by people in all parts of the world. Would it be ok for a Saudi Arabian RP user to use his flag as an avatar? How about a Palestinian? (This example is meant as an illustration of how a simple thing can be controversial; it's not a slam on Jak nor does it have to do with any personal opinion I have on the matter.)
I do believe some tolerance is a healthy thing.
As for waiting for people to have a certain number of posts before they can upload pictures (to the galleries or wherever), that would stifle the site as well. New people would come here, join up, realize they have to wait until they're ok'd by some unknown panel before they can contribute freely... but by that time they'd be gone.

One potential fix would be to remove much of the superfluous portions of the site. It's too big and difficult to manage. The galleries could go. If you want to show your art, go to DeviantArt.com and others - there's plenty of sites out there for that. Also, a large portion of the forums could also go, especially the salon area. Reducing the focus of the site back to retouching and restoration would eliminate much of the problems, the "controversial" subject matter would be reigned in, and that would make it much easier for moderators to police the site.


Mig

Originally posted by Mig

...Also, a large portion of the forums could also go, especially the salon area.

I would rather just put up with the occasional "controversy". The site has evolved into what it is because of what people wanted...the "Photo Based Art" forum being a good example. RetouchPro has always had the feel of a community rather than just a website and I think things like the Salon have a lot to do with it...I would not want to see that go.

I honestly think this whole thing has gotten way out of hand. And out of proportion. The previous thread was deleted, and yet here we are once again. If we quit dredging it up, it will cease to be an issue...

The images in question depict nothing I haven't seen on a downtown street in a major city in the US. And, they are actually good examples of image manipulation.

They may not fit with my own personal tastes, but heck, I see worse every day on network television... Or from hormone driven teenagers groping each other at public bus stops...

Ultimately, Doug has the final decision about what is and isn't acceptable on his site. Since the question seems to have been whether to let him decide (like he needs our permission), and since the images remain, I think we can pretty much deduce what Doug's decision has been regarding them.

Let's all move on to something a bit more productive, shall we...?

I agree with you 100% Jakaleena. It's silly. Much of what we're talking about here is part of our culture, whether we like it or not. (I like it.)
Just excercise a little common sense when posting images and commenting. Occasionally something will come up that's deemed inappropriate, it'll be removed - fine, no big deal. And if you accidently catch a glimpse of a breast before that post is deleted, don't worry...you're not going to hell.

Mig

We discover what offends as we move on. I missed the post in question, but it must have been a doozy for it to cause so much controversy.
When we see something that offends, we should report our feeling to the moderator. But slamming for flaming the poster does very little. Usually that is what an offender is waiting for. The moderators do a good job of filter what goes on here. Sometimes things slip through, or what bothers one doesn't matter to another.
What I have come to notice and appreciate, during my 2 months at this site, is the general "downhome welcome y'all" feeling I get from the members. I truly feel I belong to this site now. When I offered my 9/11 photo I hoped it would reach all the members I have come to recognize and respect. I don't know of any other site to do that on. (bad grammar, I know!!)
If a photo offends...even one member....remove it. If the poster doesn't like or can't abide by that decision, he/she doesn't belong here and will probably move on.
The flavor of this site will remain as long as its members stand up for it. Sure as it grows it gets tougher, but there are many of us who feel the same way and can exert our collective pressure if necessary. But lets do it in the same way we express ourselves here, with dignity and responsibility.
Debbie

I think any person with any inteligence at all, knows, before they post anything, wether it be an image or a reply in a forum, of it's possablities of causing a controversey. If you post anyway and it gets deleted and you get told about it, then deal with it. Either accept the moderators decision and stay within the guidelines or disagree and move on elsewhere. Unfortunatley, though, I think there is an element out there that their only goal is to shock and cause unrest. I think that if someone is continuing to go against the grain of this site , then the owner should just delete them, ban them, kick em to the curb. It won't affect anyone that comes here for what the site offers except we wont have to put up with anyones tantrums and such. In my oppinion , this ordeal got way out of hand also in my oppinion, I dont think things like this need to be taken care of in a public forum, I know that wasn't because of the owner of this site , it was because of childish behaviour of a member.

Ken

I like Retouch Pro as it is. Obviously, any site can improve with time.

I am sure that there are many non-professionals, like myself, who are attracted to the site. I am not able to participate as much as I would like at present, but I’m in there viewing everyday.

I studied online for about three years with ZDU.COM, which became SmartPlanet.com and eventually disappeared. ElementK is the closest thing to it, but I have not seen the vitality of the original product reproduced in any of the sites that I have gone to. The students were very interactive and the staff support was fantastic.

The non-technical forums were a very important component of ZDU. Students developed friendships much the same way that they would have in a real life environment. The salon is where this should happen. I read about Zimbabwe with a different insight as a result of the salon. The on going British dialog is also enjoyable to follow, but it has not yet approached the level of the “goon show”. There is so much more that is interesting in the salon, so I hope that I have not slighted anyone by leaving him or her out.

Retouch Pro has the essential flavor that I enjoyed at ZDU. People of varying skills support each other and beginners are not made to feel uncomfortable. It is comforting to know that there are no “stupid” questions.

Good taste is in the eye of the beholder. I’m 67 and I find that very little bothers me. I do not obsess on the little things. Differences of opinions are very healthy, but it is essential that personalities be left out. I like to know what other people think, whether they agree with me or not.

People should not be judged on the frequency of their posts. I do not post a much as I would like, but I’m short on time right now. However, I am dedicated to the growth of Retouch Pro and I have supported it other ways. It is nice to know that it is there and I can tap into a great support network when necessary.

I like to see the dialog focus on how Retouch Pro can be improved.

Alan