I'm getting interested in Photography (non digital right now) and I have a couple questions some of you might be able to answer:

1. can anybody recommend some good photography books for a newbie? I'm looking for books that explain about how to use manual settings on a camera, how to compose a photo well etc.

2. what kind of camera is a good one to start out with (I need something with all the manual settings so i can learn how to use it all) I'm thinking about something like the Canon EOS series (Rebel G, Rebel 2000 etc.) what would you recommend??

thanks in advance for any help,

- David :)

You might look into some of the older camera systems - Canon AE-1, Pentax K1000, etc... you can find them fairly cheap and they are very rugged and well built cameras. I still have my Canon AE-1 program from college photo class...still works perfectly even though I have dropped it numerous times. (once in the snow!)

I have a Minolta Maxxum and its absolutely wonderful. It's older (first year it came out my sweet hubby bought me one!) so it's really heavy. It's lost some of its indicator lights and a flash plate through the years, so I want to replace it with a new lighter Maxxum (Xmas is coming, honey...if you are listening...hehe).

I bought my daughter a Canon Rebel (forget which model) and it is a very nice camera too. It is about a third the cost of the Maxxum but takes great pictures, and has most of the important features. They both can be used in manual or automatic modes, of course, like just about all the SLR's nowadays.

Good luck with your hobby...photography is very rewarding, and very relaxing I have found. And now that we have Photoshop and similar programs, it's even more fun, if that's possible!

Phyllis :)

Cool for you, David!

Here's a few suggestions for you...

Books

I went to www.powells.com (my favorite bookstore) and gathered up a list of books they have listed that I've read at some point and found useful

SLR Photographer's Handbook by Carl Shipman

Kodak Professional Photoguide by Kodak

The Photographer's Handbook by John Hedgecoe

Photographic Composition by Tom Grill

The A-Z of Creative Photography: Over 70 Techniques Explained in Full by Lee Frost

John Hedgecoe's Complete Guide to Photography: A Step-By-Step Course from the World's Best... by John Hedgecoe

The Art of Seeing by Derek Doeffinger

Book of Photography by John Hedgecoe

Kodak Pocket Guide to 35mm Photography by Kodak

Light: Science and Magic, an Introduction to Photographic Lighting by Fil Hunter

Using Your Camera: A Beginner's Guide to 35mm Photography
by George Schaub

Also, check out the photography section in your library...

Camera

The Rebel 2000 would be a good choice. I shoot mainly with a Canon Elan 7e (which is an excellent camera, btw), but I have a Rebel 2000 that I use for backup. It's a really decent little camera.

Other Things You Might Find Helpful

Do a Google search on photography. There are lots of websites around with tips for beginning photographers

Search through the newsgroups (Google again) for more recommendations for good beginning photography books

Subscribe to Photography newsgroups. Although I find that newsgroups can be frequented by some fairly unpleasant people, there is also some good information to be gotten from them


Hope this helps you out some...

David, I concur with Greg get a s/h camera which gives you as much manual control as possible and put lots of film through it use short/out dated stock if cash is tight. By doing this you learn to USE the camera and it changes from being a barrier between you and the image your after to an device that produces the result YOU want.



Cheers....

I go with Chris & Greg on the s/h camera. But don't forget, the bodies end up being the cheaper end of the deal. Without decent lenses, you will prolly never end up taking decent pics. I work with 2 Minolta X-700 bodies (antiques!), one with a short focal length lens and the other with a longer focal length.

Chris's idea of running lots of outdated film thru the camera is also a good one - if you do get good shots with this, you can always patch the image digitally if necessary :D

My first "real" camera was a Cannon Rebel - Now I have a Rebel 2000 - I had to replace the first one that broke only after the saline solution for my contacts spilled all over it while I was traveling. This is a really nice camera for the price. It is very light and easy to use and takes great pictures. I would go for one of these.

David,

You've had some good suggestions. You didn't say if you want a digital camera specifically, but you can get by pretty cheap with traditional cameras if you check out e-bay or a used camera store. Greg mentioned the Canon AE-1, but I don't *think* you have full manual control with it unless you get the Canon AE-1 Program. If I'm wrong on this, I'm sure I'll be corrected. I have had 3 Pentax K-1000s, and IMHO, they were money well spent. They are strictly manual, so you are forced to make your own settings, thereby learning a lot about different apertures and shutter speeds. Sorry, but I can't remember the names of good basic books that I've had. There are many. Just browse through the books to make sure they go into the workings of shutter speed and aperture choices. Once you understand this, you can study how different lenses are made, and the effects different elements have on the resulting image.

Ed

If you decide that an older camera might be an option, you can't do any better than to get a Nikon Nikkormat or Nikomat EL.

You can often still find them in good shape.

They are (IMHO) the absolute best 35mm cameras ever made... :)

(the EL is my own personal favorite of the two)

Ed - I'm not sure about the AE-1's or A-1's but my AE-1 P is fully manual.

Ed's K-1000 would be my choice if I had to buy a system for school again...it's simple, fully manual and built like a tank. I think you can even operate them without a battery? Like Al said, no matter what camera you get the most important thing is going to be the lens. I'd start with a fixed focal length (50mm or 35mm) and avoid a zoom lens. I got a good quality 50mm f1.4 as my first lens and it's still the one I use the most.

one more thing...I'd buy the lens from a good camera store rather than online. That way you can check for mold, smoothness of the focus assembly, etc...

Good information from all above.

General tips from what I've learned over the years --

1. Photography can be very expensive. It's easy to become fascinated by the beautiful books, the luscious big lenses, and the nifty new features. Go slow, find out what you really want to do with a camera first.
2. A camera is simply a box that the film goes through -- doesn't need to be advanced, new, or nifty.
3. Film, especially slide film, is cheap compared to the rest of the equipment. Slide film will show you exactly what you shot, whereas print film will be automatically corrected by the lab to look "better". Shoot some slide film to learn how to handle exposure.
4. Camera lenses are important, and you should use the best that you can -- but first find out what your friends and family have -- maybe you know folks who will lend you a telephoto or a wider angle lens to practice with while you start off with the 50mm lens that often comes cheaply with the camera body. If you have access to a bunch of Canon lenses, or Nikon lenses, or Minolta... then you might consider buying a camera body to match the ones you will be able to borrow.
5. Photography is all about SEEING -- seeing the light, seeing the composition, seeing something you want to communicate to others. YOUR vision is your own creation. Read books about composition, view lots of pros work, but FIND your own vision.

Check out the Photo.net website, especially these links regarding purchase of a first camera for someone wanting to learn photography --

http://www.photo.net/equipment/what-camera-should-I-buy#35mmslr
Also Zuga.net
Zuga.net (http://64.49.211.153/forums/index.php)
Check with your library and your friends for books by Freeman Patterson - Photography for the Joy of It, and Photography and the Art of Seeing;

Freeman Patterson (http://www.freemanpatterson.com/Prints.html)
The late Galen Rowell (http://www.mountainlight.com/gallery.html)

Bill Hocker-http://billhocker.com/albums/index.htm
Inner Vision http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0902/jl0902-1.html
John Shaw

Originally posted by G. Couch
Ed - I'm not sure about the AE-1's or A-1's but my AE-1 P is fully manual.



That's the difference between the AE-1 and the AE-1P. With the AE-1, you have a choice between shutter or aperture priority, meaning that you do not have the choice to override what the meter tells the camera is the correct exposure (unless there is a way to lock exposure settings while targeting a shadow or highlight area of the image, but I don't think there is). If you choose the aperture, the camera chooses the proper shutter speed for exposure. If you choose the shutter speed, the camera chooses the proper aperture for exposure. There *might* be a setting for under or over exposing what the camera sees as the proper exposure, but if there is, it is not fine tuneable (is that a word?). But I guess you could always set the ISO to something other than the true ISO of the film. But that's not for beginners. And who knows what the *true* ISO of a particular roll of film is anyway?

I think CJ had a lot of good information too. By studying the work of other people, you will eventually come up with your own unique way of seeing. I used to enjoy reading anything by Dean Collins, who is an author and teacher of studying and controlling light. I'm not sure, but I think he has a website.

Ed

By the time you've read all this literature David you'll be too old to leave the house. Grab a camera shove a film in it and get out taking photographs, at the end of the day its the only way.



Cheers....

wow, thanks for all the info everybody, I've got lots to go on now! I want to get an SLR camera so it's great to get all the info about those camera's. I'm on a tight budget so i'm definitely looking at the used market, and so the info about what are good older used cameras is a big help (in the local "bargain finder" I saw a few AE-1's and lots of others like it so it shouldn't be too hard to find one). The list of books looks great Jak, thanks!

- David :)

With the onset of digital cameras most camera shops here are awash with 35mm gear I wonder if Canada is the same ?

I'm not sure, I've just started looking in to this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same here.

- David

Hello David,

When I first started photography the books that helped me the most were Micheal Langfords - 'Basic photography' and 'Advanced photography'. They have a good range of information about the basics.

Hope this helps

Clare

Hi David! My suggestion fo r a book is UNDERSTANDING EXPOSURE by Bryan Peterson. One of my all time favs. Very informative. Published by AMPHOTO I think.

Bob

thanks Bob and Clare,

I checked out the books at amazon.ca and they both look like great books and have great recommendations from the pro's.

- David :)

David:

I believe some of the best advice I ever got (that I actually followed), was to create a photo log sheet (easy to do these days with word processing) on which I'd record the important details of a given shot... for example (these would be column headings with exception of "Film Type"):

FILM TYPE: Tri-X (or whatever)

PIC #: Which picture within the roll
TIME: Sometimes time of day/lighting can affect outcome dramatically.
WEATHER: Sunny, overcast, whatever.
APERATURE: for example, F5.6
SPEED: for example, 125
M/A: Manual settings or automatic? This gave me a feel for how much I ould "trust" the camera's automation.
COMMENTS: Whatever you think is important

- - - - - -

Then for a given shot I'd take 3-4 variations, the first being in "automatic mode," and subsequent shots were taken by varying shutter speed and/or aperature.

Having this info available when the prints came back was invaluable in understanding why I got the results I did for a given shot. For example it didn't take long to grasp concept of "stops" and the relationship between aperature and shutter speed, circumstances when internal metering can be fooled, for example, snow scenes or backlit situations.

HTH...Good luck.
~Danny~

BTW: I was a Canon AE-1 user. Still have it and it works great. Replaced it with a Nikon, however, beause I needed autofocus to compensate for my "not nearly as good as it used to be" eyesight.

some of the best advice I ever got (that I actually followed), was to create a photo log sheet

Excellent point, Danny, and a great way for someone to learn. David, remember that slide film will show you exactly what you shot (not enough light due to choice of aperature/shutter speed -- image too dark, etc.). This is important when you're learning the basics. You don't need a slide projector to view your slides -- a light table would be great, but a small hand viewer will work also. Once you have learned to make properly exposed images, you can decide to shoot print film or keep shooting the "chromes"....or more likely, switch to digital. :) But you'll have the basics down, and then it's all up to your vision.

those are some really good suggestions, I'll definitely have to try those out. thanks!

- David :)

Originally posted by d_kendal
wow, thanks for all the info everybody, I've got lots to go on now! I want to get an SLR camera so it's great to get all the info about those camera's. I'm on a tight budget so i'm definitely looking at the used market, and so the info about what are good older used cameras is a big help (in the local "bargain finder" I saw a few AE-1's and lots of others like it so it shouldn't be too hard to find one). The list of books looks great Jak, thanks!

- David :)


Don't forget to check Ebay for equipment and books.

good suggestion steve, thanks.

the books I ended up getting were, "Basic photography" by Micheal Langford (thanks for the recommend clara, it's a great book) and he "Canon EOS Rebel 2000" put out by Magic Lanter Guides.
I also found out that my dad has an old Pentax SLR camera, complete with a flash and zoom lens. I'm really excited to start trying it out.

- David :)

That "old" camera is probably the K1000 model that Ed & Greg were referring to. That really was a tough camera. You'll learn a lot using it.

Good luck

Glad you found the basic photography book of interest. I still use them and I've had the pair for about 10 years. I think those reference books we all go back to again and again are worth the inicial price. I've bought so many books over the years only to read parts of them once and then they just gather dust on my book shelves - then I just think - I wish my library had this one and had saved me the expence!

I bought a Minolta fully automatic auto focus camera a few years ago, I long for a fully manual camera. I bought this to replace my aged OM10 which saw me all the way through my college, but died unexpectedly :bawling: I know it wasn't the best camera but it was my first!

One of the most useful experiments I found whilst learning photography was the zone system. It just made me realise how much you can manipulate the image without a computer - and get fantastic results.

Please keep us posted as to how you get on - good luck in your studies.

Have you built a box camera? Always fun and extremely cheap! The results can be quite good - I've got a list of exact messurements somewhere if you want to give it a go. Just yell.

Originally posted by BigAl
That "old" camera is probably the K1000 model that Ed & Greg were referring to. That really was a tough camera. You'll learn a lot using it.

Good luck
I don't think that's the one, but I can't remember the exact name of it so I'll have to check.

Clare - the box camera project sounds extremely interesting, since I want to learn more about the workings of a camera, so if you could post more details I'd really appreciate it. thanks for the idea!!!

- David :)

Dave after this avalanche of advice have you pointed the camera at anything yet ?

Your discovery of your Dad's old camera reminds me of a funny story my wife told me...she took a basic photo class in college and her Dad mentioned an old camera he had. Turned out to be a Leica! :D

Chris is right...load that thing up with film and start experimenting!

Originally posted by chris h
Dave after this avalanche of advice have you pointed the camera at anything yet ?
:D actually, not yet. I got permission from him to start trying it out, but I need to find a new battery for it (I hope the kind of battery it uses is still available - the camera is from about 1970)

Greg - wow, that would be a *really* nice surprise!

- David :)

Originally posted by d_kendal
:D actually, not yet. I got permission from him to start trying it out, but I need to find a new battery for it (I hope the kind of battery it uses is still available - the camera is from about 1970)

Greg - wow, that would be a *really* nice surprise!

- David :)

Try this.

http://www.batteries.com/ or this http://www.photobattery.com/

Dave,

I would think that the metering on the Pentax will be not be as integral to the functions on the camera as the present day models so you could probably use it without the metering system and it'll still have manual film wind/mechanical shutter etc.
Stick in a roll of 400 iso film set the shutter to 250 at f8 or f11 and snap away. Any modern film processing regime will cope with variations within this exposure range and even the depth of field(area in focus) will be quite flexible.

A Pentax is a much nicer camera to use than any Nikon or Canon of that decade and the Takumar lenses were excellent. Just go out with the standard lens to start with so your not chopping and changing all the time and can get on with taking snaps instead of being equipment orientated like most amateurs.

Cheers...

David,

I can't at the moment find the book that I was refering to. Its one of those tiny ones thats ment to be kept in your camera bag or become eternally lost on a book shelf. I'll keep looking though.

I have found some web sites that might be of interest though

www.mrpinhole.com
www.pinholeresource.com

and another that contains all sorts of interesting photography info

www.photographytips.com

This one has a section on pin hole cameras that include how to make one. I made my first with an old shoe box.

I don't know if you have a dark room - probably not as you are just starting out. A black and white darkroom of this sort is quite cheap to set up, as you don't need an enlarger - just a few trays to develop the print in, or check out your local schools and colleges, most would probably be willing to give access to you, just tell them how mad you are about photography.
Also check out local camera clubs, when I first started loads of people from the local camera club donated things (filters, enlargers, darkroom gear, etc.) to my education. To them it was fantastic to beable to share some of there information with a future photographer.

Good luck and I will keep looking for the book
Clare

thanks Clare, the sites you recommended look really interesting. I'm lucky, my aunt and uncle run a little publishing company and they have a really nice darkroom which I could use sometimes.

- David :)

David, don't do it!! We might not hear from you for a month or so at a time if you get in the darkroom. :) The first time I saw an image pop in the developer (B&W), I was hooked.

Ed

:D thanks for the warning Ed!

I finally figured out what kind of camera it is: it's a Pentax Asahi Spotmatic (http://212.187.14.19/index2.html)
I 'm going to look for a new battery for it today.

- David :)

Hi David,

I remember this Pentax, my dad had one as well.

Glad to hear you have access to a darkroom. I agree with ed once you see your first image develop you will be hooked. It took me about 3 years to get back out of the darkroom! I now nearly always print in colour, for some freak of nature I find this easier... I never understood this.

I would be really interested to see any of the images you produce and if you get the pinhole going please post your results.

Clare

Dave, A useful piece of kit for the outdoor snapper, plenty of room for instruction manuals and no punctures!

:D great pic. where did you come across it?

- David :)

I am biased towards Canon because that is what I have used for years ( Rebel and EOS-7). I also know a well-known (locally) photographic aritst who could afford anything she wanted and she carries her Canon Rebel 2000 all over the world with her.

As far as education goes books will help but I would suggest you look into basic photo courses in the Art dept of local community colleges. the formality and structure will drive your learning at a much faster rate than just reading a book. IMHO

KTM

Hi Ken,

Welcome to RetouchPRO! very interesting to hear about the Rebel 2000, since that's the camera I'll most likely buy when I get my own. thanks for the tips.

- David :)

Hi
Need some advise. I want to use my Canon A1 to take some indoor action pictures. It will be a cheer leading demonstration in a room that will most likely have only natural lighting from the windows. They will be performing in front of the windows at the time of day when the sun will be coming in. I can't change that.

Anyway I thought I would use a 800 ASA film to avoid having to deal with flash reflections in the windows. Should that be enough to prevent blurring?

Also the camera has only manual focus and I have forgotten how to set a focus zone so that I don't have to fiddle around with focusing manually which is cumbersome when you wear glasses and the room is not that bright. I can't just do a set focus from a fixed stop since they'll be moving around the room .

Does anyone know the settings of a self focus cameras ? If I set it at 10 feet for example what shutter speed and aperature would I need to keep the subjects in focus from say 6 feet to 14 feet?

Any help would be appreciated.



Paulette

I would be tempted if possible to get someone to stand where you think the most likely place for the models is - to help you focus for that point. Then do minor adjustments to your focus if and when nessasary.

Be aware of the shutter speed and make sure that your camera is set for the fore ground so that the windows do not produce an under exposed on the models - again this can be set by your subject standing in situe before the main shot. Setting a good depth of field will help general focus issues.

This has the potential for some really fantastic images - don't be afraid to experiment a little. A slight bluring of the clothing might add to the general feel of the images against the bright windows.

Good luck and I would be really interested in seeing some of your results
Clare

Sorry I can't help with the canon problem - I am sure someone here can give you some insight. Have you tried the canon web site to the give any info there?

Dear Clare,
Thank you for the advise. I think that it is the depth of field information that I was looking for. Have a good idea of what I want to do now. I can't tell you how much of a problem it is down here when you can't avoid having the windows in the background. The "sunshine of Florida" is aptly named.
I'll keep you posted.
Paulette

Paulette,

I think maybe you want to use hyperfocal focusing in that situation. It's kind of difficult to explain without actually showing you, but I'll try...

If you look at your lens from the top, you should see some hyperfocal marks and lines (see attached image).

The hyperfocal numbers will correspond to your f-stops, and there will be 2 numbers for each f-stop - one on the left and one on the right.

Meter the light in the area you want to shoot and figure out what f-stop you will be using.

Focus your lens at the farthest point you want to be in focus and make a mental note of the distance. You should have meters, feet or both on your focus ring, and the distance you are focused at will be lined up with the center mark on your hyperfocal scale. Repeat for the nearest point you want to have in focus.

Set your farthest distance at the left hyperfocal mark that corresponds with the f-stop you'll be using (on some cameras I think this may be reversed and the farthest distance will be on the right instead of the left?). All of the distances that fall between the hyperfocal marks for the f-stop you'll be using will be in sharp focus.

With your farthest distance set to the left hyperfocal mark, if the closest distance you chose falls outside your right hand hyperfocal mark, you will need to choose a smaller aperture (bigger f-stop number) or limit your shooting area a bit more.

NOTE: When you look through your viewfinder, things will not LOOK like they're going to be in focus, but it DOES work - trust me! :)

The best way to prove this effect (if you want to test it in advance) is to go out and find some beautiful scenery on a nice bright f-16 day. Focus as you usually do for scenery and take a shot, then refocus by setting your infinity symbol on your left side f-16 hyperfocal mark and shoot the same scene again. You'll just be amazed at how much sharper the hyperfocal shot will be...!

Jak has some good advice on hyperfocal focusing. I used to shoot weddings, and I'd use that technique when I would shoot the dance floor shots because it was fast shooting, and fairly dark (but I did use flash). I'm not sure if you realize this, but shutter speed has no effect on focus (but it does on movement). Pick the aperture you need, then while metering, you should know if your shutter speed is fast enough. If not, you will have to make adjustments on your aperture setting, which will influence the depth of field. I think Clare was saying to be sure the bright windows do not influence your meter reading, or you could have some very poor exposures. I think it would be good if you could visit the shooting area before the day of shooting, just to get an idea of what you'll run into. Be sure to take your camera to test things out if you go. Best of luck.

Ed

Paulette, don't know if it's allowed, but if you can position yourself next to the windows and shoot towards the cheerleaders USING the window light, but not INTO the window light, you'll have wonderful natural lighting and less concern about "blowing out" the highlights from the sunshine.

Thanks for all of the information.As I understand it now, the lower the aperature( higher f stop) the more that I will have a zone that will be in focus. What I have to do is get the highest possible shutter speed combined with the highest possible f stop to create an infocus zone.

I really can't do anything about where the group that I will be shooting will be positioning themself. It's the only place in the room where they can position themselves to perform.

Fortunately I 'll be able to try out some pictures in advance. I'd gotten so used to my digital camera that I've forgotten so much about using a "real" camera. Unfortunantly I find that my digital camera is not up to par with one of my "real" cameras when I do action photography. The shutter lag drives me crazy.

Paulette

Paulette,

If you find that you don't have quite enough light when you're shooting, you can always push the film (underexpose it) a stop or two, then have it processed as such. I'm not sure what the best film type would be for best results, but maybe someone else (Jak?) can shed some light on that subject. If not, the Kodak website should give you that kind of information (I think). Just remember that if you push film, you lose some quality. Just something else to think about if you run into trouble.

Ed

It's not usually a good idea to push process color film. BW film lends itself well to push processing, but pushing color film can give some unwanted color shifts and also enhances the grain quite a bit.

Color film has a great deal of latitude built into it and can usually be underexposed by a couple of stops without having to adjust the processing.

The following quote is from The Black & White Darkroom (http://www3.telus.net/drkrm/index.html)

Black and white negative films and color reversal films (slides) can be push processed. Color print films however have a far greater latitude than do color slide films. A color print film can be incorrectly exposed by as much as 2 stops and still produce a satisfactory print using standard processing. Also when color print films are pushed, they may develop strange color casts which are difficult to correct. For these reasons, do not attempt this technique with color print films.

If you have access to the location before hand, it is a good idea to just go and make some test shots. I really do recommend using flash if at all possible. When I shoot rodeos indoors, I use Kodak Supra 800, a good flash, and the fastest shutter speed possible. I prefer 1/250 or better, but sometimes the fastest possible is only 1/125, but with good flash that's usually enough.

If 800 speed film isn't quite enough, Fuji makes a 1600 speed color film (although it is fairly grainy).

Thanks for the info Jak. I've push processed B&W and E-6 films, but I never tried color negative films. Good to know.

Ed

Dave I was just wondering if you managed any photography with the Pentax or are you still ploughing through the manuals !!!

Hey Chris,

well I read up a bit on the manuals, replaced the dead battery and everything put in a roll of film to test it out, but it didn't actually work, so for now I'm still using a regular point and shoot camera (I found a cheap used Pentax 38-60mm zoom camera). I did get a bit of practice shooting some pics when I went for a bit of a vacation two weeks ago to some nice falls in the southern end of my province. I'll try to post some of them in the gallery when I've got my new system built up (I'm using my Linux server right now as an interim system for email and everything - I'm not going to try to hook up my scanner though, too much of a pain to configure in Linux..) anyway, I've pretty much given up on trying to get an SLR, I'm spending all my money on new computer parts and other things (well, mostly computer parts!)

- David :)

P.S. Happy Canada Day to all you Canadians on here!!

Won't that Pentax work in manual mode? Forget all this high end computer stuff and get snapping!

ditto "and other things" Assuming you mean the young ladies of Edmonton cast them aside women are fatal when it comes to creating 'art'

Well actually I tried everything I could think of with the camera and couldn't get it to work, I may try taking it in to a camera shop to see if they can convince it to work for me though.
lol, actually by "other things" I was just referring to bills, i.e. my dsl line, sattelite tv, cell phone.. nothing particularly exciting!

- David :)

Funny you should mention ADSL it actually been activated in my rural village so should be bidding pop3 farewell on the 8th July !

nice! I do have to warn you though, once you try it you'll never be able to go back to dial up again, any time I'm forced to use it now I'm always suprised by how incredibly slow it is when compared to broadband.

- David :)

Thats the general view of everybody I think Dave. ADSL has been slow to appear outside of the cities here which made it all the more surprising when I got the news here. There are some large offices nearby which I thought might have speeded the arrival of ADSL but they probably had their own private data links anyway.