I hope someone can give me some guidance about what order to work on the attached picture. As I see it, the picture has at least three major problem areas: color shift, honeycomb texture, and mold? damage.

While I can usually fix each of these problems individually, I'm not sure which I should work on first. I started by using a channel mixer AL which got rid of some of the green from the spots, but that's about it. I used Neat Image on one copy and dust/scratches on another then started thinking I should have fixed most of the damage first?

I don't need anyone to actually DO the repairs, but just some help figuring out the order they should be done in, if that makes sense. Thanks!

For me, I would clearly use the Healing Brush first to remove mold, dust, etc. By trying to remove the texture first you reduce some of the impact of the mold thru blurring but that just makes it more difficult to see and correct further the problem areas. In using the Healing Brush, it analyses seperately the texture, color and luminosity seperately so once the mold and dust is removed you have a clean textured image to work with.
Next I would do some selective texture removal. I tend to seperate out bright whites and dark areas where texture is hard to see. That way you can maintain critical sharpness in important areas.
If there is any resharpening required, I would do that before doing color adjustments only because sharpening by nature causes color shifts.
My thoughts anyway.

Cheers
Dave

Frannymae, you asked a really interesting question here.
I'll give you my answer, which is a bit different to Dave's, and I'll be eagerly awaiting other posts here.

You identified three problem areas:
- color shift,
- honeycomb texture,
- mold? damage.

Of these color shift, for me is definitely the last of all. The color information, as opposed to the luminosity, in any image is always the least important and color blotches are pretty easy to fix.

Honeycomb texture, for me, is definitely the first. This is because the best way I've seen to take out this texture depends on the fact that the pattern is repetitive. If we start the restoration process we will probably break up that pattern.

Actually the very first step of all is what you have done here: STOP and analyse the photo and decide a plan of action, don't go rushing in. (Did I say that? Oh, dear I think I'm getting old)

My sequence:
1) Choose the best luminosty mix - here 100% Red;
2) Take out honeycomb using the Alex-Chirokov-FFT process as posted by tzec here (http://retouchpro.com/forums/showpost.php?p=74946&postcount=29);
3) Heal and/or stamp to take out the major defects on the luminosity image;
4) Follow the steps of Flora's excellent tutorial (http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=140) to recover the best from the luminosity image;
5) Mix the luminosty (blending luminosity) back into the original colored image and unblotch the colors as in this tutorial - Skin Tone Correction - Unclipping (http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=144).


byRo

I agree with byRo..texture first, for the reason he stated.

Thanks for the great imput! I am going to tackle the texture first using the FFT/IFFT method...IF I can figure it out!

I tried using it once before and got the same results. I am obviously missing something.

I have read and reread the directions and am still not clear on the procedure. I tried to run the FFT filter on just the red channel, then cloned out the "stars," then ran the IFFT. But the result is just a channel filled with black. I read that you should use the "HSB filter" before making any corrections but of course I don't know what that is!

And even after I ran the FFT I wasn't sure if I was supposed to clone out every tiny "star," the big giant "star" in the middle, or what! LOL! I am really showing my ignorance in this department. I would love to see what this filter can really do, but I'm stumped. Any guidance? Thanks!

Thanks for the great imput! I am going to tackle the texture first using the FFT/IFFT method...IF I can figure it out!

I tried using it once before and got the same results. I am obviously missing something.

I have read and reread the directions and am still not clear on the procedure. I tried to run the FFT filter on just the red channel, then cloned out the "stars," then ran the IFFT. But the result is just a channel filled with black. I read that you should use the "HSB filter" before making any corrections but of course I don't know what that is!

And even after I ran the FFT I wasn't sure if I was supposed to clone out every tiny "star," the big giant "star" in the middle, or what! LOL! I am really showing my ignorance in this department. I would love to see what this filter can really do, but I'm stumped. Any guidance? Thanks!

1) Make a grayscale image. FFT will work with coloured images, but when you transform back (IFFT) the colour will be gone;
2) Duplicate the image merging the layers so you will have just the flattened "Background" layer (FFT doesn't understand layers)
3) Run the FFT filter (Filters>Alex Chirakov>FFT)
4) Run Filter>Other>HSB/HSL selecting RGB to HSB: If this filter isn't present you'll have to install it. You'll find it on your Photoshop CD (\Goodies\Optional Plug-Ins\Photoshop Only\HSL & HSB Filter) - just copy the "Hsbhsl.8bf" file to your PS filter directory.
5) On the Blue channel, clone out the stars with blending set do Darken, on the Green channel clone using Lighten. Do not touch the bright middle part, just the little stars. Do not touch the Red channel
6) Run the HSB filter returning from HSB do RGB.
7) Run the IFFT (Filters>Alex Chirakov>IFFT) to get back to the original.

Like a lot of things, it's only difficult the first time!
Tutorial? It's on my list.

Rô
[Added 25-may-2005: IMPORTANT: If you download the new RGB version of Alex Chirakov's filter from here (http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~avc25/archive.htm#FFT), then you don't need any of this HSB stuff - you just clone out the stars the the RED channel.]

Great post, trying to figure out what to do first seems to be one of my major problem areas also. And I also tried the FFT/IFFT method with limited success. I'll have to try it again per byRo's instructions.
:cool:

Hi Roland

I need a bit more help with your reasoning. You say that by restoring first, you might destroy the integrity of the texture making it difficult to eliminate or reduce afterwards. You also say that eliminating the cast and "yellow mold" should be last.
The most important feature is the face and perhaps the blouse. You can fairly easily identify the edges of the yellow mold, therefore, it should be an easy process to sample surrounding good skin and paint over in color mode. "No" texture is destroyed from what I can determine. Dust and artifacts can easily be eliminated with the Healing Brush. From what I can see, the Healing Brush does not alter the texture beneath. From my test, I end up with an excellent restored image with all the texture intact. From that point it is easy to reduce the texture effect from whatever method works for you. I think also that people will generally have better success using Flora's texture reducing method.

If you remove the texture first, you are essentially blurring the image to some degree, are you not. Therefore the yellow mold will have less distinct edges making it more difficult to colorize it out because it will bleed into the good skin. Sorry. Sometimes I'm a bit thick.

Cheers
Dave

The man said his favorite question is "Why?". So I doubt he'll find you "thick" at all. These questions help us all understand things a little better, and I'm glad to see them.

Re: breaking up the texture. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that there's a good chance the honeycomb texture will not align properly if restoration is done first, making it more difficult. But maybe I'm wrong. We'll wait for the official answer. :)

Ed

The man said his favorite question is "Why?". So I doubt he'll find you "thick" at all. These questions help us all understand things a little better, and I'm glad to see them.
Re: breaking up the texture. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that there's a good chance the honeycomb texture will not align properly if restoration is done first, making it more difficult. But maybe I'm wrong. We'll wait for the official answer. :)
Ed
Thanks, Ed, saved me a lot of keystrokes.

FFT first
The FFT method works by giving us a way to identify and eliminate patterns that repeat exactly at a fixed frequency. When we "clone out the stars" we are NOT doing any blurring, we are filtering out just a specific frequency. Frequencies higher (= sharpness) than that of the honeycomb pattern are left unaffected.
I regard this as a safe no-loss first stage exactly because of this. Neat Image and / or Gaussian blur will do the job but these methods do have the price of blurring the image and / or looking un-natural.
When we apply Neat Image / GBlur after FFT, we have to trade-off much less sharpness to take out the noise.

Healing brush
We seem to have a difference of opinion as to the healing brush. To me it does change the texture when applied. Maybe on this photo it looks the same to our eyes, but it does break up the pattern integrity.

Color last
As the FFT method only works on grayscale images it is natural to do the luminosity and color corrections separately.
Maybe it's just a personal preference thing, but I always seem to end up fixing the luminosity image first and only when that's as good as it's going to get, do I go for the colors.

Flora's method
I do recommend Flora's texture reducing method, all I am doing is trying to make it easier to apply by taking out the deepest texture first.

Ed / Dave - sometimes I write like I know all the answers, it's a problem I have always had. I'm learning new things every day and little discusion like this is good for all of us. Thanks.

Cheers!
Rô

Thanks for the reply Ro. While reading your post, I noticed a keystroke error in mine, but it is now corrected.

Ed

Thanks Ro

Is it possible for you to provide screen shots that identify the stars. I can't seem to identify them properly. Also, how much cloning is necessary? Hard edge? Radius? Is the mark in the centre a star? I've had the FFT for a while and only once was I able to see and clone out stars and get a half decent result.
BTW, "thick" probably should be replaced with "stubborn" but when I look at my skill level when I first started at RetouchPro and where I am today, I must say everyone has helped me tremendously along the way.

Cheers
Dave

Is it possible for you to provide screen shots that identify the stars.
Here´s the before and after of the Blue and Green Channels (just hope they get attached in the right order!)
Also, how much cloning is necessary? Hard edge? Radius?
- Clone just the minimum to take out the brightest stars.
- Soft edge, though it probably doesn't make any difference.
- Didn't write down the exact settings but the radius was about the size of the center of the star (pretty small).
Is the mark in the centre a star?
No, that's the picture's useful information - don't get too close to this. I'm planning on writing a tutorial for this - by then I hope to have some illustrative examples.
"thick" probably should be replaced with "stubborn"..
Now that's definitely wrong. The fact that you're here discussing this eliminates those possibilities!!!!

Frannymae, please don't get mad at me! I know I wasn't supposed to fix the photo. But I did have to test what I was saying.

Rô.

byRo, don't be silly! I appreciate the visual aids! I just didn't want anyone to thing I was looking for the work to be done for me, that's all. I'm a firm believer in the "Teach a man to fish.." school of thought.

So, now that I know how to bait my hook, I'm off to the fishing hole! Great information, and very well explained. Thanks to everyone for this enlightening discussion!

Tasty yummers, Ro! I can end up with a pretty good FFT using the black channel in LAB but can't figure out how to incorporate it back in the image and get color. I am working on an older PS platform and don't see the HSL/HsB filter anywhere. Do I really need it? In any case, whenever I mess around with the Blue Or Green channel in RGB, running FFT results in a black channel.
What am I doing wrong?

Cheers
Dave

I think your image needs to be grayscale.
kiska

Tasty yummers, Ro! I can end up with a pretty good FFT using the black channel in LAB but can't figure out how to incorporate it back in the image and get color. I am working on an older PS platform and don't see the HSL/HsB filter anywhere. Do I really need it? In any case, whenever I mess around with the Blue Or Green channel in RGB, running FFT results in a black channel.
What am I doing wrong?

Dave, I haven't figured out all the details yet but:
1) If you send a colored image to FFT it will separate out only the luminosity information.
2) If this Alex guy was a RP member maybe he'd have put the FFT information directly into the RGB channels, but instead of that he put it in HSB terms (although I'm not sure what corresponds to what). So yes, you do need the HSB filter. Also, if you change the Channel information before going to HSB, everything just gets all mixed up.
3) I'm using PS 7.0. The HSB is not installed by default, but it is on the CD under "Goodies". Not sure about other versions. (Help, somebody????)
4) To incorporate the result back in you put the resultant grayscale image on a new layer above the original colored version (remember you duplicated the image?) and set the blending to Luminosity.

Wow, I think we're writing a tutorial here - anything else??

Cheers!
Rô

Hi everybody,

I seem to have finally solved my connection problem!!! (just keeping my fingers crossed!!!)

I had tried the FFT filter, but, knowing absolutely nothing about it and, therefore, using it in the wrong way, the results I got were much less than satisfying .... :o:

Roland, you really are an incredibly good teacher!!!!! After reading your posts here, I'll try FFT again knowing which shoulder I can cry on if I don't get it right!!! :D (Tutorial?)

Using 'my' method for removing texture, its alignment isn't vital so, up to now, the order I usually followed is:

Discolorations, colour blotches.
Overall colour.
Mold, scratches and other damage.
Noise/Texture.
Tone, contrast, dimension.
Sharpening.

This 'order' may change once, but specially "if", I ever learn how to use FFT for which, from Roland's posts, I now see the importance of alignment!!!

For Photoshop CS users the HSB Filter can be installed from the Goodies\Photoshop CS\Optional Plug-Ins\Photoshop Only\HSL & HSB Filter found on the Installation disk.

FrannyMae,
you know I'm also "a firm believer in the "Teach a man to fish.." school of thought." (that's the reason for my usually long 'detailed descriptions') but I'm also convinced that the combination of a written (or verbal) description together with a 'visual aid' is even more helpful....Soooo, I hope you don't mind me posting now the result I got using my method, and later the one I hope I'll get using FFT....

Is this FFT thingy for PC only? I downloaded but my mac couldn't read it.
kiska

Hi Kiska!!!

Is this FFT thingy for PC only? I downloaded but my mac couldn't read it.
kiska

.... so sorry, but I really can't help you there .... :depressed

Hi everybody,
Using 'my' method for removing texture, its alignment isn't vital

You mean there's more than one way to do it in Photoshop? :D The results look the same to me!

Ed

You mean there's more than one way to do it in Photoshop? :D The results look the same to me!
Ed
:wink: If there was only one way to do it on PS, I think it would be a first timer! :D

Actually I'd see them as complements and not alternatives. The FFT takes out the worst part, but not all. Then Flora's method does the cleaning-up.

Rô

You mean there's more than one way to do it in Photoshop? :D

Ed

Ohhh Gosh :eek: ...Ed ... did I really give that impression???? I never ..... :D :D :D :D


Roland,

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: It seems FFT and I have clashing personalities ..... (I could try changing my perfume .... maybe???)

Roland,
:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: It seems FFT and I have clashing personalities ..... (I could try changing my perfume .... maybe???)

I think I'll write the tutorial tonight - I just can't stand seeing a beautiful woman cry. :cry:

FrannyMae: May I use this photo in the tutorial?

Rô

This is a great of exhange of wonderful information! I haven't gotten a chance to work on this picture today, but I did use the FFT method with good results! Thanks, Ro!

And yes, you are free to use this picture. I kind of like the idea of being preserved at a very young age for all eternity! LOL!

Flora, your descriptions are always extremely helpful, as are your visual aids. I don't mind at all that you worked on the picture to demonstrate your technique. I just didn't want anyone to think I was looking for a "freebie!"

Hey there.

Searching through the net, i only came up with this forum giving any useful tips. I must be doing something wrong. I have this photo and I can't seem to be able to remove the honeycomb without losing too much detail. I've been trying to use byRo's method but to no avail. Could someone explain why byRo's method failed with this one ?

Thanks in advance,

mosquito
:devil:

You might want to have a look at Flora's wonderful tutorial on this very subject:

Removing PhotopaperTexture from Old Photographs (http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=140)

I tried it on a picture of my mom (the very one Flora used in the tutorial!) with great results, and no FFT/IFFT required.

Good luck!

Franny

Hi Mosquito. Welcome Aboard!!

I noticed your image is in Greyscale. Convert it to RGB and try again.

Cheers
Dave

byRo:

Read your tutorial, and even used it a few times only to realize just now that I was using the HSB filters while using your RGB process :( Anyway, I have the RGB filters now. A few questions:

1. Using the clone tool, how much of the stars should I eliminate- the central core only?

2. What about the halo that I get around some of the stars?

3. What about the flares/rays that are quite prominent on some of my stars?

4. What blending mode for the clone brush?

Thank you for your help!

jhumur, welcome to RetouchPRO :bigthmb:

1) Over on the tutorial discussion thread (http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10911&page=4&pp=15) you'll find a "star" brush that I use for painting out the flares as well as the centre;

2) In general, if you are far away from the central star you can paint out a lot. As you get closer to the centre take much more care to paint only the star;

3) Paint them out, see 1) above;

4) I always used the "darken" mode when cloning, but nowadays I just paint the stars out with black.

Rô

I would also add that you might be able to reduce the amount of texture in the first place by scanning the photo at 0 and 180 degrees and averaging the results together (either with arithmetic or 50% blending). 90 and 270 degrees might also help--then you'd have compute the average of four images.

Be sure there is some sort of fiducial marks on your scan so you can precisely line them up after rotating.

Bart

Thank you both! I'll try the scanning trick first as the texture is pretty nasty :dizzy: Then the FFT filter. (When I was learning FFT in one of my Math courses in college- actually, sleeping thru it, heh- I didn't realize that someday it's come in this handy.) BTW, this is one of the friendliest boards I've seen- lots of friendly and beautiful people. :)