In a past life I also wore the hat of Art Director and I know what you mean when you talk about directing retouchers. I'm on the receiving end of that now and have been since I tired of the corporate grind. Prior to that, I was a lowly graphic designer and illustrator, which made it natural for me to go into retouching, which I began with a Paasche AB! haha
We'll agree to disagree on the interior. It's within the art director's license to make sure that if he chose to repurpose a photo that formerly had an occupant, to make sure the formerly obscured area that was restored was accurately represented in retouching. I've had to do this in photo compositions where perhaps a label was partially hidden and then had to be reconstructed. I'm referring to product photography for major corporations, and in my opinion, this is the same thing. I found a 355 at the same angle and "comped in" the area, as I would a label, etc.
By the way, the animation from the Photoshop layers now includes the driver's window "rolling up". I initially hadn't planned a window but one of our photographers who shoots a lot of the Toyota work saw it and said "there wouldn't be an open window in a shot like that", so I put it in...
Have a nice day!
I've not so much stirred one up as wacked it with a stick and shouted obscenities at it. I'm sorry if my attempt at manipulating the interior has caused such offense. It was never my intention.
In your argument Peth, you are absolutely correct, there's a very fine line between manipulating an image to enhance it's features and out and out lying to decieve the viewer. With specific legal ramifications, wherever you are and whoever you are dealing with.
At the time I was wondering wether to insert the interior or not, but I thought it was an important message to address and i'm glad you picked up on it (guess that's why they pay you the BIG money!) ;-) When does retouching become manipulation? and at what point does manipulation turn to the dark side.
You made a very valid point, but, I believe, one which is ultimately mis-guided. This is an established technique and not one that should be criticised. In this instance the choice of interior was only selected due to timescales and the limitations of the internet. For a start, I wasn't sure what ferrari it was, which didn't help. Have you any idea how many images come up if you type Ferrari in 'google images'! I wasn't happy with the interior, and rather than make something up, which I knew the client (retouchpro) wouldn't be happy with, I chose to insert a new one (thanks Pocoroba for the defend!).
In live conditions, working for clients such as ferrari, I'm sure they would have better stock art, than some snapshot of a guy driving down a street in new york. If an interior needed to be inserted, a genuine interior would not be difficult to locate and would be insisted upon, both by myself and by the client. As this contest was just for 'Arts Sake', I didn't see the harm in including the interior to make the point.
I've been retouching cars for over 15 years now and have worked on projects with Ford, Range Rover and several Automotive magazines and this is not the first time I have been asked to doctor the originality of a photoshoot. Each time, this was never done behind the clients back, in the hope they wouldn't notice. In most cases it was the entire reason they were employing my services.
I'm glad the issue is out in the open and I appreciate your candour and believe me, no offense has been taken. I'm just interested to hear what other people have to say on the subject.
Aaahhh if only there were more monkeys!
No mate, I'm sure you haven't offended anybody. I appreciate both yours and Pocoroba's comments. You both have very valid points. let's leave it there.
As to the big bucks? I only wish they were enough to buy a Ferrari... even an old one!
As you were.
Last edited by Peth; 03-27-2006 at 01:39 PM.
just wish I had come across this site sooner...
and membership is free... hope it stays that way.
This is the first time I'm entering a 'contest' and I must admit it has been a wonderful learning experience. Getting to know how different people view a piece of work, points for and against it, the details they notice. in this case the car retouch work was a real toughie. But the reponses have been awesome and most importantly, I learned a lot too by comparing my work with the others, shows where all I can improve more and what all I missed.
will make it a point to take part as often as possible.
I have just been into retouching for almost 5 years now... started at a photo studio restoring photographs... 3 years there, then moved into Y&R as a retoucher for 1 and half years. Then I got married and moved into a sister concern of Y&R in another state (to be with my husband)... been here since. Been learning from the first day I started working and I am still doing so now after about 5 years .
simply adore this job...
Shot this morning for Toyota. For those who haven't had "exposure" to studio-lit auto photography.
(uploading without the original ICC profile - a 204k file with that - makes the image pretty density-heavy but it is a black car.)
Get well soon Lonk!
Mate, you've obviously been through the wringer as we say down under. Great to know you're back on deck and back online. You'll be feeling like a new man in no time.
Virtual Helper monkey's on their way
Had a bit of a scare there Lonk. Glad to hear you're ok. Am sending you some friends of mine to help get you back on form.
These are a series of messages which began last Monday between myself and the contest administrator, T Paul, as well as Doug Nelson.
"Hijacked contest, in reality."
This is my first contest at RetouchPro, although I've been a member here since 2001. Given the state of the rules, I was more than a bit leary about spending the time on an entry; even my fellow retouchers here at the studio were questioning the true validity, based on the rules set forth.
I believe that the contest is highjacked from the get-go and this is why.
1. To be judged by other entrants is totally inappropriate, and it would be best if the entries were judged by members other than entrants, rather than being limited to them (all 25 of them). I've never heard of a contest judged by the entrants themselves. It seems to induce a bias or slant to the voting.
2. Members of a forum develop online friendships and they will favor those people before any other, rather than judging indiscriminately.
3. If an entrant is unable to see to the extent that they are capable of retouching - how then are they able to discern what is correctly executed and what is not?
4. A jury of overall membership, excluding entrants would be carried out in a way that is more detached from favoritism and would attract a broader involvement of competent and skilled retouchers acting as judges, resulting in a fair outcome.
5. Even a jury of moderators who are not participants would be preferable to a jury of entrants, who are possibly even more biased after they've read comments leveled at their work prior to placing their own votes. All of a sudden, an entry with good merit - loses merit due.
I feel that the contest should be recalled and reconsidered as far as the voting policy is concerned. I feel strongly enough about this that I would go as far as to say pull my entry and let the remaining participants volley for the results, if there is no recall.
Further, it wouldn't matter if I were in first, second or nineteenth position in the voting. I've felt this was an unusual and undesirable voting policy since the contest began, and I'd say the same thing either way, based on all the points mentioned above.
If there is no recall, I think that there should be another method used for future contests as this method is unfair to all participants.
Good luck to the remaining contestants.
Peers - yes. If the mod's are too busy then it should be carried out by peers who are not entrants and will not be biased based upon preliminary voter comments or other associations with other contestants. This is patently unfair, without a doubt.
If this is the way this contest and future contests will be carried out, I'll surely not participate and nobody will have anything to learn from an entry that doesn't exist.
Sorry, but it becomes a total waste of time to participate in that atmosphere.
As I said Monday, this contest should be recalled, and I don't care that I'm getting 1st place votes. It's a sham, it's unfair to all contestants involved and I'm going to take the time to voice that to the full membership in an individual thread after the contest is complete, noting that I began this request for a recall last Monday, long before the votes were placed.
For the reasons that contestants shouldn't vote against each other and should be voted for by non-participating peers, retouchers, a larger voting pool which would include more people capable of judging quality retouching or poor retouching. People who will not place votes with bias, depending on how they were voted for in early stages, or because someone is a "buddy", or for any other reasons.
It should be recalled, and be put to the mass of RetouchPro.com members, excluding participants.
Then these complaints might as well be addressed, don't you agree? I only addressed them to the author of this contest since they are officiating over it and have set the "rules" as it were. In our studio, everyone - photographers, retouchers and even clients were fairly dumbfounded as I have been that a contest like this on what is supposed to be a forum of professional retouchers (RetouchPro.com) and is comprised mainly of dabblers and aspiring retouchers rather than professionals like myself and a few other participants. The majority of the participants don't have the ability to see what they are supposed to be looking for as a judge, let alone executing it themselves, and this makes the judging pool fairly useless.
If it were judged by the majority of the RetouchPro membership, more skilled retouchers would be involved and only then would it be a fair contest. The same amount of time would be alotted for judging, but excluding the contestants and including a much broader scope of experience to the judging pool. Even if I win this contest, which could still happen as 6 votes are still out and I'm down by 2 - I'll still raise this issue to the RetouchPro forum en masse, because it is an issue that needs to be addressed in a community such as this. Why should anyone participate under the current guidelines, really? The newbies still will, but who is it that you want to attract to the contests on Retouch PRO? It's fairly ridiculous. Exhausted issue?
Thanks for your time.
So, since I effectively withdrew from the competition as stated, InfiniteMonkey has the 2nd place.
I'll participate in another contest once the voting pool is comprised of the entire membership, excluding contestants. If that never happens, so be it. If members disagree with my position as stated, that's fine too. Differences are a good thing.
In addition - I had planned on presenting this to the forum regardless of the "tie" outcome, win, lose or draw...
Back to retouching cars for a living...
|Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)|
|Thread||Thread Starter||Forum||Replies||Last Post|
|Mar 07 Contest Discussion||T Paul||Contests||39||04-30-2007 06:18 PM|
|Mar 07 Contest||Doug Nelson||Contests||24||03-31-2007 06:56 PM|
|Mar 07 Contest Votes||T Paul||Contests||16||03-31-2007 06:50 PM|
|Mar 06 Contest||T Paul||Contests||25||04-01-2006 09:00 AM|
|Mar 06 Contest Votes||T Paul||Contests||24||04-01-2006 08:58 AM|