Valid point - very well made
Competitions are a wonderful idea, and if I'm honest, the main reason I joined the site. I loved the idea of pitting my skills against talented professionals from around the world. Unfortunately, if the judging isn't done from an impartiial position of authority you might as well just give us all dice and ask us to play yahtzee.
I think getting non-entrants to cast their votes would be very interesting, though probably a little impractical. Having said that, it would be wonderful to get the whole community involved. Which is surely the whole point of the site.
This has probably all been said before but I agree with Pocoroba again here, I probably won't get involved again unless things change. I hope they do because I really enjoyed it.
Just one last thing. For all those who noticed. my off-side wing mirror, was never moved. It remained in exactly the same position as it was on the original. You can check. So many people mentioned it and it's been really bugging me. You're all right though, there is SOMETHING wrong with it, but it's location is perfect! lol!
Thanks again everyone for a very stimulating competition and I just hope we can sort all this out so we can get back to the thing we all love.
Seems to me you guys are taking this thing way too serious, which I guess happens when people are asked to compete.
But I think a little perspective needs to be entered here.
I'm not arguing that your points have no value, if this were a "professional" contest, but its not. Its supposed to be a FUN competition put on to hopefully stimulate discussion on retouch problems and techniques.
Yes many competitors are not "professionals", and may not be "qualified" to judge some entries, what of it, they still have opinions which are valid, and can judge according to those opinions.
I don't see them taking their bat and ball home when the organisers don't agree with their standpoint.
If you want to leave, that's your perogative. Good riddance. I for one will miss your work, but not your attitude.
Time for me to wade in.
I want to start by saying how grateful I am to Doug, T, Ro and to those who visit RTP on a regular basis and contribute to the development of many eager learners. In no way would I ever want to undermine your efforts by any comments I make.
I think in the wash up, those people who had the most talented and professional entries rose to the top... and I refer to Hannibal and Pocoroba.
You could say that in this case, the voting did it's job.
However. And it's a rather big however! This is a learning forum, is it not? Do we learn from votes (and comments) that are misguided by inexperience? I would suggest that the learnings are blurred at best. It's for this reason that I agree with Pocoroba and Infinite on the fact that the voting system is flawed. But it's not about the winning, it's about the learning. Sure there's a prize, but that's just a sweetner! For most professionals, going out and buying a product like that is just part of business and in some cases; a drop in the bucket.
I wouldn't go so far to say that it's biased, or rigged, or a sham. Pocoroba I believe your passion needs to be tempered somewhat with a little objectivity. Those are strong words and belie the best intentions of Doug and the Moderators.
But there is a problem in that those amateurs amongst us (and there quite a few of us) may not understand why a certain entry has risen to the top. Also why other entries didn't deserve to, for that matter! I don't think that opening the voting up to non-entrants is the solution... I'm a semi-regular contributor to the challenge forums and believe me, spreading the net wider will only catch more of the same fish!
Here's my solution then, before everyone falls asleep from boredom. TPaul, you can tell me if this is plausible or not. We carry on the voting as it stands at the moment... hey, it's half the fun of it whether we know what we're talking about or not! Plus, when we closely study other entries we may well learn a few things! These votes go into what we label 'The peoples vote'. It doesn't determine the prize winner but merely sets a point of comparison. The winner is chosen by a carefully selected expert in his or her field. Pocoroba, this could and should have been you in this case as you do this for a living. It would mean that you sacrifice your participation for the greater good of the learning process, but hey, you're a professional, what do you have to prove? I felt that the 'process animation' that you so kindly made available was an incredible insight to the professional process and approach. And it's the imparting of this knowledge that we need here.
You could tell entrants why an entry deserved to win and also why comments may have been mis-guided... that way we all learn.
For the next challenge you would then become the entrant as the disciplines have changed.
TPaul, I guess you're thinking that's all well and good but how the heck do we find these people? Well maybe it's a regular post on the Homepage, calling for experts in the fields of historic restorations, digital painting, automotive retouching etc etc... For instance if there was ever a colouring contest I'd be trying to get Vikki to judge as her work is beyond compare in my books. If it works, the judges could have their profile displayed along with the competition rules so we all know who we have to impress. It might make us all go a little further.
To end this post, I'd like to say that I'll continue to enter these contests whenever I have the time to, regardless of what happens with the rules. I haven't been a member for long but some of you are starting to become friends and the world could do with more friends. Pocoroba, I understand your passion but please continue to enter, the same goes for you InfiniteMonkey.
Congratulations to Hannibal and Pocoroba.
Since I'm not a professional, I now have to wonder if I should enter the contests.
This is really a learning place for me , and I've done well with my contest submissions so far. But, in judging, I'm now wondering if I'm qualified. I am not a peer of the professionals.
In judging this contest, I based my selections on my non-professional take of what was supposed to be a catalog item.
I judged as any potential consumer would. I voted for the ones that drew my attention to, and made me interested in finding out more about, the product being advertised.
Congratulations to everyone who entered (professionals or not). Keep up the good work.
I really shouldn't post in contest threads, because it inevitably makes things worse rather than better.
1. Posting private messages in open forum is just about the rudest. thing. ever. That's why they're called "private" messages.
2. Although there are many reasons for the contests, my primary goal is to offer something of value to the struggling professional. Maybe a morale boost, maybe a resume line or a website bullet point. That doesn't mean established pros or hobbyists aren't welcome, quite the opposite in fact. They're just not the target demographic. Fulltime pros can raise the bar and demonstrate new possibilities, which is never a bad thing, and I'm always delighted if amateurs learn something or simply have fun (pros are welcome to have fun as well).
3. Limiting voters to those that participate is the fairest practical way to handle it at this point. Opening it up voting to anyone with an email address (the only requirement to register here) would simply invite fraud and flooding. Narrowing it to a few select judges would simply invite yet another argument over who's qualified as a judge. And I personally feel that anyone that has retouched the exact same image has earned credibility as a judge.
4. This site is run on a time-available basis by unpaid and underappreciated volunteers. It is not a business, there are no resources to delve into for more sophisticated plans. However, this does not preclude changes as resources become available, as anyone that's been here for a few years can attest. We invite you into our little corner of the web and hope a good time will be had by all. But there will always be those who feel compelled to criticize the decor, demanding the furniture be rearranged, and in general trying to grab more than their share of the attention. That doesn't mean they can't have good ideas, it's simply a reflection on their manners.
Honestly I have to say that I also thought that the process of judging is a little unusual!
Before Pocoroba started this discussion, I already had a suspicion that there could be preconception involved.
As the votingthread progresses, I was elaborately counting the votes to determine my ranking. It than was clear to me that Pocoroba was sneaking up to me en became a threat for my 1st place position.Then it was time for me to vote. I thought that Pocoroba had the best entry but I also wanted to win.
How easy would it be for me NOT voting on Pocoroba?
Having said that, I want to make clear that this is just an opinion and not a complaint!( no reason for me to complaint anyway ) I like this forum and like the constest, and I want to continue to join in the future. As this forum is free and the moderaters are volunteers, I think we don't have any right to make any demands.
Ok back to the contest
I am very honored with my 1st place!
I want to thank everybody for the compliments and voting on me. Especially Lonk. Recovering from surgery he still took the effort to vote, that realy moved me! Get well soon Lonk!
Pocoroba and Peth sort of offered me a job. This also stunned me because I am actually just a beginner. I don't know how serious this offer is, but unfortunately I don't have the money to move to another country.
But it inspires me to continue retouching and trying to make this my profession.
Oh yeah one more thing, moonwriter, also thanks vor voting, but the right mirror is there.
Congrats Hannibal and apologies to Lorraine
Mate, I don't do the hiring but I can set up the interview... just a beginner eh? well keep it up and best of luck. Heh heh... I wondered how you'd approach the voting I saw the same thing happening - gave the contest a little more spice.
Lorraine my dear ( can I call you that?) You appear to be so sweet and I love the work that I've seen you do - you are a professional in your own right. So your strength isn't in retouching cars! Maybe it's a guy thing (at the risk of appearing chauvenistic). Who cares. There's been plently of contests that you have been far more qualified than those that have had a clear opinion in this forum. please don't take my comments as trying to shut you out - I wouldn't dream of it and I can't imagine being so rude to someone who is SO NICE to everyone that comes here.
I'm on my knees Lorraine begging your forgiveness if I gave the wrong impression... seriously!
Ok let's move on guys eh? I'm regretting opening my big trap - I'd never want to ruin a good thing.
chauvenistic... I didn't spell that right did I?
Hi Peth --
My post certainly was not directed to you. You've have been more than helpful to me on many occasions, be it directly or indirectly. Your comments and critiques are always valid, well thought out, and very much appreciated. For example, you pointed out the correct wheel positioning in this contest. I had no idea about that or so many other things, so that's why I'm questioning my ability to judge fairly when it comes to professional work.
You are correct in saying that cars are not my thing. I hate to drive, let alone know what a car should look like.
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