Contests - - May 06 Contest Discussion - Page 3

goose443 · #31 05-05-2006, 06:14 PM

Although I'm not going to post every step I went through (too complicated) I would be happy to share technique or answer questions if anyone is interested.

Kraellin · #32 05-05-2006, 06:53 PM

i looked at Veryweird's how to in this thread and went, 'wait, she did exactly what i did... or i did exactly what she did'. basically, i took every filters, plugin, tool, etc, that i have and using the original each time, made a new layer of all these various edge/sketch type tools. thus, i used things like 'find all', 'trace contour', 'find horizontal', 'find vertical', etc, adding up to about 12 different types and thus 12 separate layers, each with a different base edge/sketch effect.

after that i lost all track of what i did. it was mostly working with combining all these different layers with various blend modes and sometimes completely new images based on combos of the original layers.

at various times i might also erase some part of one layer to get a certain look. and near the very end it was even more erasing to get rid of things i didnt like.

the final step was a dual framing. you might think there is only one frame in my rendition, but in fact there are two. the first was a soft vignette frame. that's the one that may not be that obvious. the second was actually a border and not a frame.

and as others have already pointed out, pencil sketches can have quite a range, from a minamalist one like mine, to a full featured portrait. one shld also remember that graphite can produce a rather wide range of shades and sharpness/blurriness depending on how you use it and the hardness or softness of the graphite. i've also seen 'wet' graphite effects which can go beyond the normal range of most pencils.

oh, and here's one small tip for others still working. graphite is basically the same substance as ... charcoal and almost all editors have some sort of charcoal type filter.

craig

soleah · #33 05-05-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

....
oh, and here's one small tip for others still working. graphite is basically the same substance as ... charcoal and almost all editors have some sort of charcoal type filter.

Thanks. craig.

For a moment there, I got confused. I am familiar with the word "charcoal", but "graphite"???....(and here I already submitted my entry

)

FYI for those not familiar with the term (like me) : A quick search on the net, I found out that graphite pencil is just your garden variety lead pencil. There is no lead in the pencil. It is actually graphite.

Here's generally what I did with my entry: (The detailed steps would take forever to write)
1. I created an outline image from the desaturated image
2. Mask the outline image and painted back the general shape of the head, hair, eyes, etc. with a coarse brush.
3. Made a copy of the desaturated image
4. Mask the copy and painted back the shades on the face and hair using a soft brush at varying opacity.

I am still using a mouse so the contouring and shading was bit tiring and frustrating...but I am quite happy with the results.

Whatever the outcome of the contest, this is one big "breakthrough" for me.

Kraellin · #34 05-06-2006, 01:18 AM

may 6th and we're already up to 32 entries! i may have to withdraw just so i dont have to vote

i find it fascinating going through the entries so far. so many differences and yet all seemingly falling within the criteria. 'pencil sketch' when you get right down to it, is a pretty broad parameter. i havent seen one yet that i could eliminate by saying, 'no, that's an oil or something else'. so, it's going to be an interesting voting i'm thinking.

anyone who's ever run their finger over a pencil mark knows how easily smudged the lines can get, while on the other hand a pencil with a really good point on it can make the most delicatly thin line you'd ever want. change the pressure it's applied with and that line can be dark or very light. so, basically, almost any desaturated image could fall within the parameters. and this is NOT a whine about the rules. i think the rules are fine. this is just an observation about the class of entries so far.

i also got this wild idea, that's probably a bad idea, but i'll toss it out there anyways. T has been notifying folks ahead of the voting stage if their rendition is likely to be disqualified for rules violations. and that's fine. but it got me thinking; what if the rest of us, contestants and not, started evaluating entries ahead of the vote...here in the discussion thread. we've more or less avoided this in the past, but wouldnt it be interesting to know what folks are thinking about your piece BEFORE the voting stage? the idea here being, not to cause a heated bickering or attempt to sway a good entry into changing theirs to a bad entry by essentially lieing about it, but rather to get a less favored entry to change to a something better. and since it is quite legal to change your entry before the deadline, why not?

now, i know there's a bad side to doing this. i know. but in past contests i've watched various folks post their piece and i KNOW as soon as it's posted that it doesnt have a chance. that's the type of entry i'm talking about. you see it and you just know it's not going to have any chance at all. so, why not tell the person and give them a shot at doing something better?

now, like i said, i know there's a downside to this. egos do take hold at times in contests and i also know that some folks dont really want to be told that their entry is 'no good and doesnt stand a chance in h*ll of making it.' no one really wants to hear that. i also know that a lot of these contests become subjective perception evaluations, but what i'm mostly talking about is that post that when you see it you just know that it's just technically not up to snuff. would anyone care to hear that before the deadline or not?

also, i shld add here, i've NOT seen any of those yet in this particular contest. so, stand easy all; i'm not talking about your entry in this contest

or maybe, the way to do it would be that the person when they posted could include something in their entry post that says 'please tell me if this doesnt stand a chance.' and in that wise folks could and would then say yes or no and why not, if that was the case.

anyways, it's just a thought

craig

Doug Colwell · #35 05-07-2006, 01:39 AM

Started with a copy of the blue channel and used levels and masks to exagerate the contrast. Used colored pencil filter (picked this one because it had the word 'pencil' in it), lowered opacity, and merged down to my high contrast layer. The hair suffered from the filter's diagonal strokes so I copied a patch of hair from left side, and rotated it so I could get some natural looking strokes on the right side. Cloned the patch edges in and burned the hair along the cheek line. Recovered some of the original hair texture using levels and masks on a copy of my base blue channel layer.

Gigadals · #36 05-07-2006, 02:04 AM

Craig,

'please tell me if my entry doesn't stand a chance.' i would love to hear what the wise folks could and would say.

Giga

Doug Colwell · #37 05-07-2006, 02:26 AM

Craig, your idea would be a good one except that it targets 'bad work', so already people will be on the defensive, and maybe even reluctant to enter. While I think most people are just as inclined (probably more so) to try to fix 'good work' that they feel needs just a little something to make it 'great work', I don't know if the contest forum is the right place for unsolicited critiques - I suspect that many view the vote as criticism enough. If entrants ask for help or tips or critcism, then I don't see a problem.

NancyJ · #38 05-07-2006, 02:34 AM

While all pencils are graphite and not lead, in artists terms, a graphite sketch often means drawn with a stick of graphite (http://www.lawrence.co.uk/shop/index...alog220_0.html) rather than a traditional pencil. They're very like charcoal in consistancy but they're not a dark, you dont get proper blacks with pencils, if you lay it on too heavy the best you will get is dark, shiny gray.

NancyJ · #39 05-07-2006, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigadals

Craig,

'please tell me if my entry doesn't stand a chance.' i would love to hear what the wise folks could and would say.

Giga

Giga, yours defiantely falls well within the realm of pencil sketch. I'm not persoanlly a fan of such visible cross-hatching but thats a personal preference, not a critisicm.

Doug Colwell · #40 05-07-2006, 02:54 AM

Nancy. I agree that true black isn't possible with graphite but it can show very dark if you control the lighting and reflections that make them shiny. Here's an un-tweaked scan of a graphite stick sketch I did years ago (from a Julia Margaret Cameron photo) that shows quite black in some areas.

T Paul · #41 05-07-2006, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

i also got this wild idea...what if the rest of us, contestants and not, started evaluating entries ahead of the vote...here in the discussion thread...

anyways, it's just a thought

craig

I would love to see the Discussion Thread evolve into this. There are contests out there where entries are posted and critiqued then the contestants resubmit their entries based on the comments for the final vote.

Not only is it a great way to learn how your ideas come across to others, but also a practice in editing when you make the suggested changes to improve your original entry. At that forum, egos don't appear to be an issue, because everyone is expecting suggestions on how to improve their entry and want those suggestions in order to make their entry as strong as possible.

TwinbNJ · #42 05-07-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Paul

I would love to see the Discussion Thread evolve into this. There are contests out there where entries are posted and critiqued then the contestants resubmit their entries based on the comments for the final vote.

Not only is it a great way to learn how your ideas come across to others, but also a practice in editing when you make the suggested changes to improve your original entry. At that forum, egos don't appear to be an issue, because everyone is expecting suggestions on how to improve their entry and want those suggestions in order to make their entry as strong as possible.

I post in a photo group that does this for their contest and it is very helpful. I don't think I have ever seen anyone take an attitude when critiqued. The critiques are clear with suggestions on how to imporve the shot. Other times people will point out that the image just does not meet the challenge and why, in their opinion, it does not fit. I think it would be a great addition to this contest.

I showed Jean (my twin) my entry for this contest and she wasted no time critiqueing it. I already posted my entry and am still debating weather to make the changes Jean suggested. Of course her suggestions are helpful and what area's she pointed out that need work are correct. When you work on something for a while you miss areas and may over process - it's good to have another set of eyes take a look! LOL

Kraellin · #43 05-07-2006, 10:32 AM

gigadals,

like i said in the original post on this, i havent seen anyone's in this contest that doesnt qualify so far. so, rest easy

doug colwell,

you're probably right. the idea is to enter, to participate, to put yourself out there regardless. folks can already be so shy about this sort of thing that any remarks construed as 'negative' could be enough to chase folks away and god forbid that a person entered and got 50 private messages telling them that their piece is no good. so i can see that unsolicited critques might not be a very good idea.

i guess it's sort of a case like we have on the forums here. in the art sections we generally dont pick apart someone's work for the most part, even if it's meant as a constructive criticism. most of the comments are 'i like this' or 'i like this part of this'. and if someone really wants a critique, why, we've got the critiques forum. so, i get your point.

still, in some of the former contests, i recall seeing a piece when entered and have gone, 'should i say something or not on this. i know it's not going to get a vote.'. and that was what i was trying to address; the idea that one could help a 'poorer' entry get better. but you're probably right; too many unsolicited comments might tend to squash someone, particularly if they're just starting out.

as for the graphite stick as opposed to the pencil, i'll expose my lack of formal training in that i'd never known there was a difference. interesting.

and doug colwell, that is a marvelous sketch! i do hope you're doing this stuff for a living.

T, i just read your post after writing all this stuff above here, and yes, that's sort of the idea i had in mind; an open critiquing discussion of the entries. you've put it better in that you dont just limit it to the 'poor' entries, which would then not single them out. i think that's what doug was saying too.

so, how does that work on that other forum? if you've got 50 entrants does everyone do 49 critiques or how does that work?

craig

TwinbNJ · #44 05-07-2006, 11:01 AM

craig

On the forum for photo's I post to there is a thread to post your image asking for comments and/or suggestions. Then other members post their comments to your entry. Not everyone asks for suggestions - so it would only be for those who ask.

Here is an example of a shot I took for a challenge and asked for input.

http://www.digitalgrin.com/showthread.php?t=33580

Gary Richardson · #45 05-07-2006, 11:31 AM

Like the idea of a critique based competition, sounds like a good way to learn.

TwinbNJ, love the photos, but have to disagree entirely with the poster at the other forum re your first photo. To me it has much more impact than the second, as it has atmosphere which the second doesn't. Due entirely to the drums, and the smoky atmosphere.

If you want a conventional shot of the singers face, by all means crop, but if you want a picture with atmosphere, leave it as is.

I agree that you should perhaps try having a look at it in B&W though.