smudge painting

[palms]

looking through the archives i found a post on smudge painting and thought i would give it a go, problem was none of the links were live, so i am not sure what it should look like, had a go though what do you think ? does anybody know am i close ?
i will also post the original


ps i havent added any brushstrokes ( tried the crosshatch and quite like it) or textures yet



http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/sho...mudge+painting

[byRo]

Seems like you've got the hang of it pretty good.

Originally Posted by palms1

... i havent added any brushstrokes ( tried the crosshatch and quite like it) or textures yet

As I had understood it, the streaks left by the smudging are supposed to mimick the brush strokes. So you wouldn't actually add anything, just enhance from streaks to strokes.

(cute - "streaks to strokes", got the title just got to write the book now!)

Rô

[byRo]

[please, disregard this - my opinion has changed ]
BTW, the reason that it's difficult to find up-to-date links about smudge painting is (IMHO) because the folks have discovered other, better, methods to do the same thing.
The problem is that when smudging you lose the reference to the original - you can only smudge more, you can't recuperate what's lost.[/disregard]

[new]If you like smudge painting then there ....[/new] Two other methods to look up (using Photoshop) are the "Stamp Pattern Impressionist" and the Art-History Brush - you should find links and even a tutorial for these.

Rô

[palms]

Thanks Ro I will practice a bit more on this method (found it quite relaxing and a change from using a filter or action) I will also look up your other suggestions
thanks again
palms

[Kraellin]

palms1,

that's a great look!

i was wondering if you could put a background to it, something simple.

the one thing i'm wondering about too is, along the upper edge of the cat, the hair shows nicely with a feathering. but along the left lower edge of the cat, it's all rounded off with no feathering. is this part of the style? it looks cut off sort of.

as to the style and how to do it, i defer to Ro but it is a great look. i could easily see something like this hanging in a living room.

Craig

[palms]

Hi Craig
Firstly this was just a have a go picture to see what was what, I had just opened the original again to start a "proper go" when your reply came through,

When doing the smudging firstly i done little strokes on the middle of the body and on the head area, then i tried "scrubbing" on the back area, the little strokes gave the better feathering appearance i think, plus as you can see on the original when i took the photo i missed part of the rear end and cloned that part on, Now i dont know wether to carry on with this picture or take another ( the model is always willing and able and dosent complain much either ) It also looks good printed out but not on glossy also am able to see bits where i missed smudging or done to much

As for the background i think one would look good and possibly a cushion of some sort but last year i bought a framed sketch of a tabby kitten which has no background and wanted to sort of copy the effect, ( it is black and white which is why i have also tried that )

Palms

[Kraellin]

hi palms1,

yes, i thought maybe this was a test run to get some feedback. so, ok

i do like the effect and in seeing your second post i can see why you left the background out. that's some great contrasts going on there.

but it's the back of the cat, the lower left that doesnt quite work for me. your 'scrubbing' method is fine for the internal portions, but the smaller, feathering of the upper part of the cat looks so much better....again, to me. i dont mean to be cruel here, but when i look at the left half i keep being reminded of a football the shape and cut-off edges just have that shape to it. the front portions just blend so much better with the backdrop and work naturally into it.

have you tried printing this on a canvas type paper, maybe a very light one? and i think this would make a great iron-on for a t-shirt also. a matte print would work also. just leave your image background as transparent and print it out on matte paper. same with the iron-on. it might also look interesting on an onion skin, but i'd do a test first.

i'll bet your subject works for peanuts, takes long breaks, and wears a 'got milk?' t-shirt

as for whether you start over or work with the existing, i'll be interested in seeing them.

Craig

[palms]

thanks craig for input

i will be back

[Kraellin]

i risk over-critquing here, but i wanted to illustrate what i was saying. please understand that i really like the technique and would love to hear more about how you achieved it.

the first image here is your original with a simple frame/border.

the second is your original cropped a bit with a frame/border added. this one works for me. maybe it's the added part of the cat you cloned in that bugs me, so i just cropped it out again.

and the third is just another crop, tighter, for a different look, with a frame/border. the tighter crop is to highlight your technique and show it off a bit more. this one also works. it communicates the sleeping cat and the technique.

forgive me if i'm pushing a point i already made. i would just add that 2 and 3 are marketable (with or without the border) and that i'd be proud to display such a piece.

Craig

[palms]

[

CENTER]Don't worry Craig I am REALLY glad of your input I do think that it is the cloned in part that is really wrong, So i will try and get another shot over the next few days ( no doubt she will go to sleep outside now the sun is out )
I never would of though of cropping, it is like a different picture again and my preference is the third one [/CENTER]

ooooh it is exciting when something starts coming together nice
and like i said earlier i will be back

thanks Craig

[Kraellin]

palms1,

ok, good

Craig

[palms]

Well cat hasn't co operated yet and struck up the pose i wanted so had a look at the first one and rounded the rear area up and noticed that some of the problem is the direction of the brush stroke

So had another go at a different pose, one problem with it is the edges not sure what to do it looks jagged but if i smooth them they look just as bad

but the technique is quite interesting all the different effects with different brushes etc dug out the pen tool (not sure which i prefer ) another problem i was having was doing the left side of the face (right handed ) so flipped the image and hey presto easier then when finished just flipped it back ( i know i am slow on the uptake )

[Kraellin]

palms1,
i like the second one. i wouldnt do a thing more with it. it looks great.

now, notice in your second one, the back end of the cat, and there's your secret to fixing the first one. i had to study all these for a while and finally made one tweak to your original to demonstrate what i mean. i dont consider this finished, but just to demonstrate. i took the eraser and just made ONE cut down his back side. just one, about 50-60 pixels wide and that's all. i didnt try to make this clean or anything; just wanted to show you what i mean. what'cha think?

Craig

[palms]

Craig
I do see what you mean about the first one, i had been looking at a more rounded shape where you where looking at a flatter shape ? and i think you are right
although there is a part of the second one i don't particularly like (not the edges) but haven't said anything to see if it got any body else,( and just incase you go looking for it and find something else it is the left handside of the face it looks to chubby for me, but i think it could be the pose you think by now she would get it right ) The first one is still my favorite by far and will get it sorted printed and framed soon
thanks for the help

I will have to have a go at a landscape next with this style see how that goes

palms

[Kraellin]

well, the thing is, i only made the one swipe to sort of see for myself what i thought was off. that you might want to make that swipe more or less, or round the edges i left or whatever, might turn up something even better, but i do think the roundness was what was off.

and as for the second one, if it's too chubby, cut it off ultimately, it's your eye that has to be pleased, not mine (though i may covertly, secretly print one of these myself )

i do like the style and you've done a very good job with it. i look forward to seeing the landscape... after you finish the cat(s)

Craig

[palms]

Craig
dont covertly print openly print with my permission

palms

[Kraellin]

well, thank you!

you know, i dont really know exactly what this technique is. you refer to smudge painting and i sort of assumed you were using the smudge tool set to a certain style, opacity and size and doing strokes on your photo. and you also mentioned pulling this technque up from the archives, but from where? and do i have the method correct or is there more to it? Ro also mentioned that this tech isnt used that much any more but is somewhat replaced by others....umm, what are the others?

at any rate, give your cat a stroke for me. he's done a great job

Craig

[palms]

Craig you have got it right that's pretty much it

here's the link i found but none of the links within the thread are live

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/sho...mudge+painting

So are you going to have a go ( i have a idea that you are psp but there shouldn't be any problems converting )

not to up on the other methods i have used the art history brush but not the stamp pattern, smudging will keep me amused for a while,
Well after the computers had a reboot, someone not mentioning names has deleted something they shouldn't have so a bit later will do a reboot

Palms

[Kraellin]

hi palms (i'm dropping the 1)

thank you.

i do like the technique. i might try it on something down the road. right now i'm pretty much 'booked' on what i need to be doing, but i did want to understand at least the basics. so, thanks.

and yes, i'm currently using psp 7.xx and from what little i read in your link it would transfer ok. i dont have all the little tweaks on the smudge tool that photoshop seems to have, but i'm fairly good at improvising....sometimes

one of these days i'll go photoshop. i keep drooling at all the tools it seems to have, but i'm restraining myself for now. no sense trying to learn something new when i havent learned psp yet.

at any rate, it's been a delight and i hope nothing too serious was lost.

Craig

[byRo]

OK, OK, you guys got me to change me opinion about smudge painting. I have even edited my post at the start of the thread so as not to dismiss the technique as a thing of the past.

Kraellin, I had a try at smudging in PSP, but I couldn't seem to get it right. When you figure it out you cold post the coordinates for the PSP folks.

Rô

[CJ Swartz]

Originally Posted by palms1

here's the link i found but none of the links within the thread are live

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/sho...mudge+painting

Palms

The Smudging Tips thread was started by Phyllis Stewart before she started her own photography/photo art website and forum (http://www.innographx.com ). Some folks are members of both RetouchPro and Innographx.

You can read the Smudging Tips WITH illustrative links to images here:
http://www.innographx.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18

Her links show the before and after images -- personally, I love the results of experienced smudging -- Phyllis's work is excellent, and Palm1 -- you're headed that direction. I think I'm going to practice again -- hand work is not my strong suit, but I'd love to get the results you, Phyllis, and other get.

[Kraellin]

Ro,

i gave this a try, but i'm not sure i'm even in the right class with what i did. this would seem to be a very free form. but again, i'm even sure i did it right. this is a picture of a flower i took years ago. i used a small retouch 'push' brush on the petals and highlighted it and darked it with retouch/burn and retouch/dodge. on the leaf background i used a larger retouch push and smudge and burn and dodge and just went kinda nuts swirling things around. i varied the opacities and sizes quite a bit and the hardness.

but again, i'm not even sure this would fit with palm's excellent technique.

Craig

[palms]

Thanks, CJ have been and looked at the page on innographx, What can i say they are well awesome, and boy do i have a long way to go ! ! ! ! saying that though it is enjoyable and do have another go. One thing i have learnt is that the photo makes a huge difference don't go for one with lots of little bits, the bigger the better
Well Craig hats of to you i like the picture and love the colours, Between you and me as a x psp7 person i re loaded the program (after reading Ro's message) and had a go and well Gave Up ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! the smudging does not work the same in both programs i have now deleted psp again and am a bit downhearted that a program i loved (from version 4) and stuck up for as being as good as ps well didn't quite live up to it now i'm using ps

Palms

[Kraellin]

palms,

thank you, but i dont think mine is a very good duplicate of your technique either. yours seems to have more depth in the smudging and is done a bit finer. it looks almost like you had a thick layer of paint on a canvas and used a small rounded stick to drag through the paint. mine just looks flat by comparison. if that's because of psp vs ps, then here's yet another reason for me to upgrade

now, in all fairness to psp, i dont believe it's as good as ps, but i also know version 8 and 9 made some rather large leaps. i had a chance to test the demo for 8 or 9, i forget which, and was pretty amazed at how far it had come. the thing i didnt like with 'how far it had come' was that they changed the interface to one more like ps and that was a bit of a mistake in my mind. one of the few advantages psp had over ps WAS the interface. it was much simpler. but, i suppose if you keep adding features to a program the interface is bound to evolve also.

at any rate, psp is a great new to mid-level editor. i'll continue on with it for now until i feel i at least have the basics down pretty well. but, i also know i'm missing a great deal by not having ps, so i have to control the drool from time to time and bite my tongue every time a great technique is explained in ps terms. ah well, the price of interning

and palms, you're prolly right in removing psp again. but, you might want to get corel painter. the stuff you're doing seems perfect for that program combined with ps.

Craig

[1STLITE]

WOW!!! I had read what was left here of her post/tutorial and thought it interesting. But man, this woman has done some awesome stuff, and with the smudge tool alone! I am in love. After seeign the whole thing, examples and all. WOW WOW WOW. I love the cat, too. I am totally in love with this. Definitely have to practice! Thank you for bringing this up!

Dawn

[palms]

Not sure if these will help you at all Craig but i thought i would show you how i seem to get the "thick layer of paint"

1. is just smudged ( Done quickly )
2.With the usm used
3. with the custom filter used ( Sorry but absolutely no idea what that converts to in psp ) on top of the usm
4.with the usm used again on top of usm and the custom filter but sometimes this is to much ! ! ! ! !

Dawn i know how you feel they are really really good so have a go and let us know how you get on

Palms

[Kraellin]

ok, so what do the marines have to do with this? u.s.m. ok, guess i dont know what usm stands for as it seems unlikely that you're painting with a marine.

and 1stLite, yes, i like it too. i may even have to print this one out on a custom paper technique i use for special prints.

Craig

[CJ Swartz]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

ok, so what do the marines have to do with this? u.s.m. ok, guess i dont know what usm stands for as it seems unlikely that you're painting with a marine.

Craig

USM can mean many things to many people, but rather than a university or a member of the U. S. Marine Corps, most folks here at RetouchPro simply mean the use of the UnSharp Masking filter for sharpening images.

However, painting with a Marine sounds like a lot of fun to me!

[Kraellin]

lol cj but which end would you use?

(and thanks for clearing that up)

Craig

[CJ Swartz]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

lol cj but which end would you use?
Craig

Each to his/her own, Craig,...