My 2nd High-End Retouch Attempt - Please Critique!

[psdbunny]

Hi all, I'm attaching my second high-end retouch attempt. I did this using a retouched image that I found online. I was going for a high-drama, fashion-oriented retouch using sharp contrasts, paint, light and the like. Your constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

(Note: Please note that this is supposed to be a fashion-oriented/high-fashion retouch and is meant to not appear completely "natural"/realistic. Any critique with that in mind would be greatly appreciated; thanks so much.)

Before

After

[Godmother]

Before

That's not one of Char's image - but my concern is not even that is WHY WOULD U RETOUCH AND POST without permission and image is NOT yours??

u could get into a LOT of problems and u could even get the photographer into A LOT of problems if the agency of even the model finds the image going around - don't mess with this.

x

PS: why retouch a retouched image?

[psdbunny]

Hi Godmother,

Thank you for your response. In regard to your last question, I wanted to practice with lighting, shadow and contrast...particularly with an image that was initially very bright to begin with. This is the image that I found with the best angle for the effect I was trying to achieve (and for some reason I wrote down the photographer's name as Charlotte Kibbles).

In regard to posting the photos and conflicts it may present, as far as I know there are two primary issues at hand: 1) I did not use the photo for any commercial purpose(s) whatsoever. I used it to practice on and called myself citing the name of the photographer (although you mentioned she's not in fact the photographer). 2) I cited my source (which apparently wasn't the correct name). There is a third here which is specific to US law, but I'm not going to go there, as I believe the first two reasons that I mentioned are very important.

Lastly, there are NUMEROUS examples on this site in which someone took a photo that has already been worked, and took it one (or several) step(s) further to rework it and enhance it even more.

[psdbunny]

Originally Posted by Godmother

Before

That's not one of Char's image - but my concern is not even that is WHY WOULD U RETOUCH AND POST without permission and image is NOT yours??

u could get into a LOT of problems and u could even get the photographer into A LOT of problems if the agency of even the model finds the image going around - don't mess with this.

x

PS: why retouch a retouched image?

One last thing that I forgot to mention. The image is in my Flickr, as each time I attempted to upload it to RTP, it would not work for some reason. As you see, my Flickr is nearly empty. I don't leave images in my Flickr, particularly images that I did any retouching on - whether or not they were given to me directly or if they're found imagery. (This is in regard to what you mentioned about the image "going around".) I wanted to also point that out...thanks GM.

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by psdbunny

In regard to posting the photos and conflicts it may present, as far as I know there are two primary issues at hand: 1) I did not use the photo for any commercial purpose(s) whatsoever. I used it to practice on and called myself citing the name of the photographer (although you mentioned she's not in fact the photographer). 2) I cited my source (which apparently wasn't the correct name). There is a third here which is specific to US law, but I'm not going to go there, as I believe the first two reasons that I mentioned are very important.

You are VERY VERY WRONG - u CAN'T POST a published picture retouched by your self - unless it's stock or u have the permission of the photographer to do so.

The images in this site are usually posted BY the photographers to practice on - that's not the case with your image. U CAN'T TAKE A PIC OF THE INTERNET, retouch it your self and then post it in another site - PERIOD

But I'm sure many ppl here are going to tell u the same thing.

Regards,
Natalia

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by psdbunny

One last thing that I forgot to mention. The image is in my Flickr, as each time I attempted to upload it to RTP, it would not work for some reason. As you see, my Flickr is nearly empty. I don't leave images in my Flickr, particularly images that I did any retouching on - whether or not they were given to me directly or if they're found imagery. (This is in regard to what you mentioned about the image "going around".) I wanted to also point that out...thanks GM.

u posted the links here - public forum - same thing

[psdbunny]

Originally Posted by Godmother

u posted the links here - public forum - same thing

GM, are you the photographer? (I'm asking because of your reaction.) If so, let me know and we can proceed accordingly. Also, according to US Fair Use law, I used this photo in an educational capacity, which is protected under US copyright law. I also credited the original photographer (or at least attempted to...you mentioned that the credit was incorrect, which is one of the reasons I asked if you were the photographer) and did NOT distribute the image (although, it's freely available via an image search anyway via Google or any other search engine).

I did not post a high-res version or otherwise of the image for anyone to download. In fact, in my Flickr settings, my account settings are deliberately set to disallow downloads of the image for this very reason. So what you mentioned does not qualify as "distribution". Nevertheless, I made a good faith effort to credit the photographer and I used the image purely for educational purposes. It's not on a personal site of mine or being used for commercial/ulterior purposes; it's on an educational/informational forum in the critiques section...being used for an educational purpose with a good faith effort made to properly credit the photographer.

[0lBaldy]

Children, children, children... no need to fuss or try and defend your points of view...

The FAQ's are pretty clear...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FAQ:
What about Copyrights and Likeness Rights?

This isn't a legal guide, just a brief summary about posting here. We aim to follow United States copyright and likeness rights laws, and it's your responsibility to make sure your uploaded images are within those laws. If in doubt, check http://www.copyright.gov.
Copyrighted images cannot be posted without explicit permission from the copyright owner. "Someone put it up on the web" does NOT count as explicit permission.

Public domain images can be posted (this usually means at least 70 years old, or formally released into the public domain by the copyright owner) assuming you have permission of anyone recognizable in the image (or their estate if they have been dead less than 50 years).

Images you own can be posted by you if you have permission of anyone recognizable in the image. Posting your image here does not mean you surrender copyright, but it does mean you give permission for other users to retouch the image and upload here, unless you explicitly state otherwise at the time of uploading.

Images you don't own can be posted if permission is explicitly given by both the owner of the image and any recognizable person in the image.

Celebrity images or random images from Google or anywhere else on the internet cannot be posted unless explicit permission from both the photographer and the subject has been obtained.

Changing a copyrighted image in any way does not remove it from copyright.

Pieces of copyrighted images, no matter how small, retain their copyright and all the same rules apply.

"Fair use" and parody protection are problematic to define, but to be safe lets assume neither apply here.

You are responsible for obtaining any necessary permissions for images you upload, and you are liable should anyone choose to enforce their copyright or likeness rights.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If in doubt don't post (and it sounds to me as if there IS doubt!)...

It is up to US to try and keep the Forum and Doug out of trouble no matter how we may feel personally.

As far as a critique goes... it looks mighty dark and grainy and not very high end to me

[psdbunny]

Originally Posted by 0lBaldy

Children, children, children... no need to fuss or try and defend your points of view...

The FAQ's are pretty clear...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FAQ:
What about Copyrights and Likeness Rights?

This isn't a legal guide, just a brief summary about posting here. We aim to follow United States copyright and likeness rights laws, and it's your responsibility to make sure your uploaded images are within those laws. If in doubt, check http://www.copyright.gov.
Copyrighted images cannot be posted without explicit permission from the copyright owner. "Someone put it up on the web" does NOT count as explicit permission.

Public domain images can be posted (this usually means at least 70 years old, or formally released into the public domain by the copyright owner) assuming you have permission of anyone recognizable in the image (or their estate if they have been dead less than 50 years).

Images you own can be posted by you if you have permission of anyone recognizable in the image. Posting your image here does not mean you surrender copyright, but it does mean you give permission for other users to retouch the image and upload here, unless you explicitly state otherwise at the time of uploading.

Images you don't own can be posted if permission is explicitly given by both the owner of the image and any recognizable person in the image.

Celebrity images or random images from Google or anywhere else on the internet cannot be posted unless explicit permission from both the photographer and the subject has been obtained.

Changing a copyrighted image in any way does not remove it from copyright.

Pieces of copyrighted images, no matter how small, retain their copyright and all the same rules apply.

"Fair use" and parody protection are problematic to define, but to be safe lets assume neither apply here.

You are responsible for obtaining any necessary permissions for images you upload, and you are liable should anyone choose to enforce their copyright or likeness rights.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If in doubt don't post (and it sounds to me as if there IS doubt!)...

It is up to US to try and keep the Forum and Doug out of trouble no matter how we may feel personally.

As far as a critique goes... it looks mighty dark and grainy and not very high end to me

Thank you Baldy. This guide is in regard to images loaded onto this site...I didn't load this image onto this site, but instead provided a link to a page that has been blocked from searches and has blocked any downloading of either of the images. The rules for the forum touch on images posted to this site and they also mention not wanting to engage the Fair Use law in the US (I can imagine because it's tricky, involved, and subjective). But as a 3L student, I know enough about IP law to know that I did the correct thing by posting the image onto another site and blocking its download or distribution...and I also credited the photographer (although, GM mentioned this is not the correct name of the photographer). Equally as important, I used the image for educational and non-commercial purposes.

But thank you for touching on the FAQs...I wasn't aware of some of the items that they mentioned and the fact that it was uploaded to an external site was by chance.

[jam1212]

Regardless of whether or not the post is ethical, I believe the main point here is the retouching, which, in my opinion, is pretty bad. While I believe I can see the direction you were attempting to take it, I think you darkened it way too much. Drama is all good and well, but when you completely obscure details, the drama turns into mush. Moving on to specifics, the high contrast you introduced did something strange to her nose, causing it to take on a very geometric appearance. Also, the general placement of highlights/shadows is a little off. You altered her bone structure as opposed to accentuating it.

To be honest, I think you took a very nice picture and made it worse.

Just my two cents.

[psdbunny]

Originally Posted by jam1212

Regardless of whether or not the post is ethical, I believe the main point here is the retouching, which, in my opinion, is pretty bad. While I believe I can see the direction you were attempting to take it, I think you darkened it way too much. Drama is all good and well, but when you completely obscure details, the drama turns into mush. Moving on to specifics, the high contrast you introduced did something strange to her nose, causing it to take on a very geometric appearance. Also, the general placement of highlights/shadows is a little off. You altered her bone structure as opposed to accentuating it.

To be honest, I think you took a very nice picture and made it worse.

Just my two cents.

That's interesting, particularly the part about her nose. I'll have to take another look at it, we didn't notice the part that you mentioned. Yes, I did want to alter her bone structure, so it's helpful to me if you noticed that (as opposed to just "accentuating it"). I'll take a look at the photo again in accordance with your feedback. Thanks Jam.

[psdbunny]

Originally Posted by jam1212

Regardless of whether or not the post is ethical, I believe the main point here is the retouching, which, in my opinion, is pretty bad. While I believe I can see the direction you were attempting to take it, I think you darkened it way too much. Drama is all good and well, but when you completely obscure details, the drama turns into mush. Moving on to specifics, the high contrast you introduced did something strange to her nose, causing it to take on a very geometric appearance. Also, the general placement of highlights/shadows is a little off. You altered her bone structure as opposed to accentuating it.

To be honest, I think you took a very nice picture and made it worse.

Just my two cents.

Hm, we just looked at it again...the strange thing is that I didn't even touch her nose, so I'm not sure of what the geometric thing could be. I do think that the light and contrast makes her nose's shape stand out, as her nose has an angle just above the tip of her nose...which can be seen in the original image. I thought about changing that angle, but I didn't want to mess with it, as I was trying to use light principles to sculpt and shape...and frankly I thought her "original" nose was rather cute.

I did add more white to the bridge of her nose...is that what you mean by geometric? Other than that, I didn't touch her nose. The part of this image that I did think would get torn to shreds is the arm in the foreground, as the lighting is clearly off and anyone (whether or not they're interested in high-fashion/beauty imagery) would notice it. I gave up on trying to light the arm, as I thought the position of the arm in general as cause for optical confusion (at least for me).