New retoucher seeking critique... before/after

[Siciliana]

Not sure how to delete. Please scroll down a couple posts to see my revised thread.

[nebulaoperator]

Hello Siciliana,

I made some notes on the photo regarding bits and knobs I think needs to be done. Hope it helps. neb

[nebulaoperator]

here is attachment.

[Siciliana]

Thanks, Much appreciated!

[Pari Retouch]

I personally didn't like the saturated oranges and how u made her hairs blue.
I like the colors of before than that of afters.
Other than that I would have tried to perfect the makeup, her eye shadow seems very uneven try perfecting it and her lips color is uneven as well.

[Siciliana]

Yeah, I hear you about the orange.--I think most of it is the result of color shift from not properly color managing for the web. I kinda liked the look of the blue light, I mostly added it because I thought the photo was a little boring. Then, again, I am a person who has had blue hair myself and like that kind of thing I have the blue effect in a group and can click it off. I will have another go at it later to fix the make-up, etc. and give it a more 'perfect' look, to repost. I was trying to stay more true to the original, less retouched, but I'm still getting a feel for how far to take it.

[Siciliana]

Also, I realized after that I posted this in the wrong place. Will redo and move over to the 'critiques' section.

[Siciliana]

Hi, I'm new to retouching, but a longtime photoshop user and painter. I am seeking critiques to help me improve so that I can get work in professional retouching in an agency environment. I have also worked for many years as a print graphic designer and have experience with color management for print and prepress, so I think that helps, but I am just not familiar with the industry standards for retouching. When I look at some magazines I often see images that I think look awful (ie. fake), as well as others that are very natural and supernaturally beautiful.

I posted this before/after in the wrong category the other day so I'm moving it over here. I'm still trying to work out how far is too far on skin, and how much is not enough. This model has very blotchy skin with blemishes. I corrected most of it with dodge and burn techniques, combined with some frequency separation. I am wondering if the skin is still has too much variation still? I don't like the plastic look--as an artist I like more realistic variation, but I realize that may not be what people want. There were so many light and dark patches in this skin that I had to do a lot of small dodge and burn and curves to make it more even. Yet, I know I could have taken it farther. I could make the skin color more even and the variation less, but part of me thinks it doesn't feel real if I do that. So, I'm asking you: How does this look to you? What should I do differently? I do see variations around the eyes/chin/forehead that could be removed, but my instinct is to leave them--should I work on the skin more? Is this enough? Sharp enough? Too shiny? What do you think of the color? Looking for help...

**I had some helpful comments that the eye make-up and lip-stick should be improved but I haven't done that yet.**

before: http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...untouched2.jpg
after: http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...retouched2.jpg

[Siciliana]

Move this thread to the critiques section:

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/cri...tml#post293574

[Boneappetit]

Hi Siciliana: Well, I don't really know how to critique this job, but it looks to me that the original photo, is not a good photo to begin with, and if that's the original size, i guess it is too small... I don't want to sound harsh...

First, if you are using spatial frequency separation and D&B, you are on the right track. As for the process, I think you went a bit too far, perhaps with the dodging, specially from the neck down, because the original doesn't show too much texture in that area, and some parts of her face. The color shadow below her eyes don't match (I know it is the original photo). So your work there should be, to make them look more even. From neck down the photo doesn't need a lot of process for the same reason, almost no texture.

When we over do the dodging the result looks blury. "Look at her side burn, compared to the rest of the hair, the part between her nose and upper lip (center part), and her cheek bone looks a bit too flat, meaning that there is an absence of texture or natural look, but then again that's where I think the original is not a good alternative.

Perhaps you could use a bit more of sharpening to make it look a bit better... My advice here is; try to find a better picture to practice. The other thing you can do is, create 2 help layers for your eyes, they can give you a better perspective when you get ready to apply D&B...
1- A dark curve layer, and 2- A solid color white layer in color mode. These are only eye help layers, which you can delete when you are done with the D&B...

In a while I'll add a link to this post that can also help with black skin tone...

The link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOAdOTHzTg

[Boneappetit]

Here is a sample of the eye help layers I use when dodging and burning...

[Siciliana]

Boneappett, thank you for that critique. It is exactly what I am looking for and not too harsh. The original file is not that small and it is a RAW file, but it does not have the kind of detail in the midtone and shadows one would like and is a bit underexposed. I see what you are saying about the 'blurry' factor and flatness caused by too much dodge & burn and that is the kind of thing I am trying to figure out. The sideburn problem was my fault because I tried cloning on "lighter color" to see if it would be more natural but ended up smudging out texture. I should have known better. As for the rest, I can see now that it definitely has lost some of the depth of the original and needs more contrast added back to give it more dimension.

Overall, I think next time I will host the images on private server space--the resized images on here or on photobucket(automatically resized) are degraded. I don't know what is going on with color. I am viewing the images now on a friend's monitor and the color looks really lousy. My retouch looks way too green and washed out. My monitor at home was recently calibrated but it is old and there is too much ambient light in my current workspace. I'm not sure if the friend's monitor is way off or if the environment I am working in is off. In any case, I have to improve that situation so that my color is more accurate. I actually am able to see color very well, but apparently, I am not seeing the photo as I ought to, or else the color is shifting in the web conversion.

You are right that is isn't a great image to work on, but I am learning something from it. I think I might try to do it all over again from scratch to see if I can do a better job of keeping the original shading and color and try to preserve more detail in the shadows somehow. Still problem solving and trying different strategies to get the result I want. Next time I will also post the images at original size.

~Amy

[Siciliana]

Oh, and thank you for the video link, that is very helpful. I was wondering how to best bring back the overall darkness to the skin and that is a nice technique that was not the first one to come to mind.

[Boneappetit]

U R very welcome Amy: Some time ago I was having the same problem, old monitor, small and not to faithful, as soon as I could, I got a new one and from there on I guess I'm having a better control over my works... This is a very important tool, we want our works to be faithful to the long hours we spend in it... Keep up the good work, you are doing great...

[Siciliana]

Thanks again for the link on black skin. I tried it on that photo when I got home last night and it made a world of difference. I can't wait to retouch this photo over again this evening from scratch and see if I can't get a better result. I have a couple ideas of how I can improve it quite a bit, starting from the raw file.

[Boneappetit]

Originally Posted by Siciliana

Thanks again for the link on black skin. I tried it on that photo when I got home last night and it made a world of difference. I can't wait to retouch this photo over again this evening from scratch and see if I can't get a better result.

"I have a couple ideas of how I can improve it quite a bit, starting from the raw file".

Hi Amy:
That's a good practice. A new work starting from RAW. You can also try the black skin tutorial "on white skin", landscape, etc. to boost your image or get a nice sepia tone. You can take a look here: http://boneappetit.deviantart.com/ga...t=192#/d2u65or

[Siciliana]

Well, I had another go. I realize I could go farther on tidying up irregularites and I could enhance and clean up the makeup more, but honestly, I think I'll work on a better image if I am going to spend that kind of time. Wondering if anyone wants to give more feedback? I'm really trying to get input on skin texture. I tried to sharpen up the shadows in RAW to see if I could keep more information. I'm mostly wondering opinions on texture. Is it too much texture along the nose? Not enough? Too splotchy still? Opinions on skin tone, color and texture appreciated. You can view these below at a larger size if you click "Original" size at the top of the page.

Thanks!
Amy

before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rastere...n/photostream/

after:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rastere...n/photostream/

[Boneappetit]

Hi Amy:

That one is much better, but still thinking that the photo is not the correct one. Besides the things I already pointed out, you have a black model over a "dark or black background" serving as an enemy of your work. I don't really know if using a black background for retouches is a no no among retouchers, (I got a couple in my gallery) but what I've seen so far, is that there are not many pro-works with a completely black background, and even more when your image is a head shot...

[Siciliana]

What about the texture on the side of the nose? Is it too much still? The model has kind of bumpy, oily skin. I was trying to keep her original skin texture while reducing the dark splotches and blemishes. I was trying to be very authentic, so I stopped here, but part of me thinks that maybe the forehead and side of nose are a little too bumpy and it would be more attractive to reduce that texture a bit. These are the kinds of minute decisions I fret with, not knowing how much is too much yet--that is why I am looking for advice from more experienced retouchers. I'm tempted to do a frequency separation and mask out some of the opacity on the nose and forehead texture. I already reduced the texture on unattractive skin texture such as the large bumpy pores on the end of the nose.

Obviously, this is not a portfolio piece. I am really just practicing on making a realistic but significant improvement on the skin. This has been a good practice for me to work on dark skin with a lot of variations. Doing it twice, I got the chance to figure out which techniques were fastest for which problems.

Thanks for all your advice!
Amy

[Siciliana]

One more:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rastere...n/photostream/

I realize I went overboard the first time, but I've tried adding a little color to the background and powdering up the highlights a bit to give her a smoother look and glam it up a bit. What do you think of this finish? Too much? Would you do something else? Color problems? Too dull? Nit-picking criticism appreciated--always seeking new ideas. I know it isn't a great photo, but this is the one I'm practicing on. Next time, I'll try to choose something better Need to get my hands on some very high-res files.

[Boneappetit]

Originally Posted by Siciliana

One more:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rastere...n/photostream/

I realize I went overboard the first time, but I've tried adding a little color to the background and powdering up the highlights a bit to give her a smoother look and glam it up a bit. What do you think of this finish? Too much? Would you do something else? Color problems? Too dull? Nit-picking criticism appreciated--always seeking new ideas. I know it isn't a great photo, but this is the one I'm practicing on. Next time, I'll try to choose something better Need to get my hands on some very high-res files.

Yeah, this one looks pretty nice, there is a big difference (in a good way) from this one and the other 2... I'm sorry for insisting on the pic choice, you are right, if you are only using it for practice purpose, that's a good thing to do, because you learn a lot during the process. I noted that you changed the background color, and the perspective changed, it adds DOF to it, very nice.
Keep up the good work.

[Siciliana]

I appreciate your point about the image. Evaluating an image is an important part of the process. Of course, in the real world, depending on what level we are working at, and the quality of the photographers we are working with, less than ideal images are a reality. Glad to hear that you think I am on the right track towards improving my technique. I am very new to this. I'm just working on improving my skills right now. Looking forward to taking it up quite a few notches in the coming year!