my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to CMYK

[nadaman]

I am a commercial photographer doing editorial work for magazines. I've spent the last month trying to fix a very odd problem that I've not encountered before. I use an iMac 24in w/Apple Display, OS10.5.8, 4G Ram, NVIDIA GeForce8800GS video card. Using Lacie 324 LCD monitor (with calibration puck and software) as primary display.
This is a new work station bought new in December 2008. All software is current and updated.
Clients want CMYK files for printer.
I do most work in Adobe 1998 RGB using CS4 (Design Standard) and convert to US web coated (SWOPE) v2 for final to client. Using the "convert to profile" command to change color modes, I observe that my caucasian skintones become noticeably redder. An H/S adjustment layer @ (reds...+8 hue & -16 sat, yellows...+7 hue with Master @ 0) seems to get it close to the RGB.
Here's the kicker: I only notice this red cast on my Lacie monitor, and in CS4 only. If I use the color picker and read the numerical values, there is very little change between the RGB and CMYK file - which is what I would expect and am used to.
If I move the image(s) over to my Apple display the red color cast is not visible. If I convert the file using CS3, no cast is visible on either monitor. Duplicating the file and converting one to CMYK, leaving the other in RGB, then using Preview or ColorSync (Mac) apps to open the file, no color cast is visible in either monitor. This seems to be specific to 324/CS4 only.
I have tried dumping the PS preference file and restarting. I have just received a new replacement monitor from LaCie. Red cast is still there. Adobe has just switched its support to India & doesn't seem to be going out of their way to help. My case number sat untouched for 3 days after loading to their FTP. It was only after I called that someone took a look at it and I can't get through to my support portal to update my case. To say I'm a bit frustrated is really understating things. Looking for some help and perhaps direction in solving this issue.
Please see jpg attachment - its a screen grab with both files to give an idea as to what I see on my 324.

[Markzebra]

Sounds like you've wasted a lot of time without understanding some basic things about monitor displays…

Have you calibrated either monitor? All accurate color on screen is impossible without monitor calibration. There's a reason for this: Photoshop uses the monitor profile (you create that when you profile it) to display all colors. Without an accurate profile, displaying colors is a shot in the dark.

A monitor profile is a description of the full monitor gamut and white point. Its created by products such as Spyder, EyeOne, and Huey, which READ the output with optical devices, and create a profile. Your two monitors, the Apple and the LaCie, will both have different gamut (range of colors) and neutral - and Photoshop needs a description of this, so images displayed on both will look the same.

Most sofware (web browsers and such) do not use this system, that's why colors normally appear different, on these.

Now the DOCUMENT profiles that you have assigned (Adobe RGB, SWOP CMYK) can again only be displayed accurately if Photoshop knows how your monitor behaves. NEVER use document profiles to attach to your monitor, they are a completely different type of profile.

[TommyO]

Originally Posted by nadaman

This seems to be specific to 324/CS4 only.

Opinion 1 (I often have more than one )
Actually, based upon the information you have provided, I would say specific to CS4 and the Mac OS. This is not being reported in the Windows OS. There was quite a bit of rework done by Adobe to accommodate some of the color profile support under the Mac OS. So, I would suggest working directly with Adobe. The LaCie may have a bad profile which is just exaggerating it, which is good, this is how we find stuff.

Since your color picker indicates the values to be within expected values, and the other monitors provide a truer visible indication, then trust your conversions are Ok and proceed. Obviously, you will have to work in AdobeRGB, only converting at the end, proof on a different version of PS or a different monitor.

Opinion 2
That thing of it only showing funny on the LaCie bothers me. I would do two things. (1) Go into the Colorsync utility, look under Devices, Displays... and see if the LaCie is using the profile it generated from its last calibration. If not, problem may be solved. If it is... move to (2) The last calibration could have gone wrong. Do it over, under controlled conditions. Then retest.

[nadaman]

[QUOTE=Markzebra;239582]Sounds like you've wasted a lot of time without understanding some basic things about monitor displays…
Thank you for your reply.
I'll agree with you on the "wasted a lot of time" part, my mother wanted me to be a lawyer.
My 324 shipped with a calibrator and software. Upon first setting the monitor hardware, I created a profile. I was also able to get a hold of Lacie Blue Eye PE software which normally ships with the 500-700 series monitors. This version allows one to test their profiles according to UGRA DACT specifications. My profile for the 324 passed. I used the same calibrator on the Apple display though I can't set luminance or gamma but I figure I at least
got it neutral and then visually adjusted the brightness to match the calibrated 324. I think I did everything by the book. If I missed anything please (anyone) let me know.
I should also add that my profile and reports were forwarded to Lacie for analysis. I've yet to get any answers but as a good customer relations gesture, they did send me another new monitor for comparison. No change on the red cast issue though, possibly the monitor(s) is/are not defective.
please see pdf attachment.

[nadaman]

thanks for your reply TommyO, have to say it bothers me more!
- checked display preferences and the proper/current profile is activated.
- this profile was tested and passed UGRA DACT specs using Lacie blue eye PE software.
- have tried a few different profiles - all show red cast.
- work in pretty dim room with no direct light on monitors.

In your opinion, what's the best way to approach Adobe. I do have an active case open but I'm feeling ignored. That's why I posted on this forum. I've never done tech support by web with Adobe. Adobe seems to be in a state of transition right now.
Any direction would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

[Markzebra]

Ok, your problems are clearly to do with an incorrect monitor profile. Don't get side tracked its nothing to with Adobe OR CS4 or your mac color sync. Adobe customer service is absolutely useless at the moment and its not worth wasting your time

The Lacie MAY have internal settings OVERIDING the calibration, from what you have said now that occurs to me.

I was also able to get a hold of Lacie Blue Eye PE software

I don't get it - you say just the SOFTWARE? you mean the PE device and the software surely?

I had experience with LaCies displaying with a Magenta bias before too, its just their natural state - the answer is just a question of calibrating properly. The Apple display is controlled with software - calibrating both displays with the same device should produce an accurate match. Are you using them as dual monitors, or attached to different machines?

[nadaman]

Hello Markzebra,

LaCie Blue Eye Pro PE...... PE stands for "Proof Edition" & is part of the software name. Difference between this software and the one that ships with the 324 is under "Test & Report" button. You can test your profile against UGRA specs to see if it passes with PE version.

A puck or "Measuring Device", as Lacie calls it, is attached externally to your monitor, lined up with software target (by clicking "Calibration" button) and reads a series of targets to make your profile which you name and save.

Your saved profile is loaded/activated using Blue Eye software under "select profile" button. Profile is loaded this way every time upon start up.

Upon using the 324 for the 1st time, you access the monitor hardware menu by pushing with your finger on the lower right of the monitor frame. Here you can set your color temperature, gamma, etc. Once that is set, one uses the Blue Eye software and puck to update profiles periodically.

I can't see how any internal Lacie settings would be overriding the calibration. Please clarify.

The Apple display has very limiting adjustments based on your eyes making judgments on targets. Can't remember the last time I went there.
Lacie has a puck for more consistent results over time. Lacie also displays a larger gamut than Apple.

Yes both monitors are running from the same computer. iMac guts are located in the monitor. No cpu.

Magenta bias is not the issue. I could live with that if it was consistent. I am only experiencing this color shift with CS4 on the 324 Lacie and only comparing RGB and CMYK conversion of the same file.
See image sent in 1st post. That is a screen grab of both RGB & a copy converted to CMYK. Both on the 324, one on top of another.
If moved as is to Apple display, red cast disappears in CMYK copy.
If the same grab is opened in CS3, red cast disappears in CMYK copy.

please see 2 attachments:
CS3 lacie.jpg is the same file as in the 1st post, opened in CS3.
lacie interface.jpg is Blue Eye interface & packaging.

[Markzebra]

Do your CS3 and CS4 color settings match exactly, including CMYK profile and rendering intent, with all the checkboxes the same? If its true that the conversion is thrown off in some way then it may be related to this. Color management has not changed in CS4 in any way, so same settings should produce same results.

To investigate this - you can measure points with the eyedropper in the CS3 and CS4 converted images to make sure that the conversion happened correctly. Save down the converted CMYK files and open them both in either CS3 or 4, and see if the VALUES are the same. This will tell us whether its a profiling issue, or merely a color conversion issue.

You should also obviously never use your monitor profiles at all in the Color Settings dialog.

[nadaman]

Thanks MarkZebra for your interest & hope your not a Man U supporter. What will they do without Rinaldo?

The plot thickens!

please see 2 jpegs of color settings & convert to profile setting talk windows,
CS3 vs CS4.
Only difference I could see was the extra box below "use Dither..." in CS4 talk window:
"Compensate for Scene-referred Profiles" refers to matching color management with After Effects software. But for the hell of it I disabled it and tried my test again to no avail. Red cast still exists using CS4 on 324 (beginning to sound catchy that "CS4 on 324", don't you think? Makings of a song perhaps).

Barring that, I think they are the same. Did I miss anything? Please check.
I agree with no monitor profiles in color settings.
I'm new to this forum and can't load in anything bigger that 100k.
I can do a screen grab with targets and give values if you like.

Is there any particular areas that can help you determine the profile vs conversion issue? Please download, identify, & mail image back to me.
Would you like a CS3 vs CS4 comparison. let me know.

Want to say thank you again because you are forcing me to cross my T's and dot my i's. This is important when presenting boring tech stuff like this.
I hope we are at least providing someone with a worthy lesson of some kind.

In the spirit of keeping my sense of humor as I'm loosing my mind, if anyone knows Thomas Knoll personally, who is known to surf forums in what little free time he has, please direct him here. His expertise is needed.
tanks.

[Markzebra]

Those color settings are precisely the same. So the CMYK VALUES in the file must be the same whether you converted them in CS3 or CS4. Provided they were both converted from the same Adobe RGB file, with those settings. That brings us back to monitor profiles.

Running out of suggestions, something is wrong here - from what you are saying it seems to be that CS4 is for some reason picking up a different monitor profile than CS3. And whats more curious just applying it to the CMYK file. Everything Photoshop displays is filtered though your monitor profile, so it needs to be correct.

It may be that your dual monitors is creating a confusion of some sort, check 'arrangement', in displays System Preferences - and check AGAIN that 'color' is set to pick up the correct profiles. And that your Color Sync application is picking up the correct profiles also.

One last experiment, I can suggest try Proofing the images - View/proof setup and choose 'monitor RGB' - what does this look like? In both CS and 4. This strips out any document profiles and displays the numbers directly, so it will be a good way to see for certain whether its a monitor profiling issue.

If this doesn't help its a really tricky one - ask your question here …*http://forums.adobe.com/community/ph...shop_macintosh

Thomas Knoll doesn't work on Photoshop anymore, only Camera RAW. All the color management stuff came in in Photoshop 5 after his time and refined in 6.

[pixelzombie]

i'm curious why you use "convert to profile" instead of a standard conversion to cmyk...

[nadaman]

hi MarkZebra:

"And that your Color Sync application is picking up the correct profiles also."

I'm aware of "Display Preferences" which I use to set the Apple display profile.
I use the Lacie Blue Eye software to activate the profile for Lacie.

I'm not aware of using Color Sync app for profiles.

So I opened Color Sync application and asked it to verify my profiles.
It told me that 11 were in need of repair. All were related to my Epson 1280 printer, two of which were custom profiles - that I had made - to better match my present LCD monitor and an old CRT to prints from said printer.
I then did a repair which repaired these two profiles only, others could not be fixed.
Is there more I should know about Color Sync app on Mac?

Displays, Arrangement, and selected profiles all have been re-checked and all are good.

Open the same file in CS3 & CS4 RGB mode. Line the up one on top of other. Have both files big on screen.
On iMac display files look identical when comparing CS 3 & 4 in either soft proof on (with Monitor RGB) or off.
When comparing Monitor RGB to soft proof off (command Y), again both are identical in that there is a loss of saturation in the reds which makes the skin tone more yellow and slightly flatter.
On Lacie 324 again both look identical - flipping between CS3 & 4.
in soft proof off only.
When applying Monitor RGB, CS3 looses the red saturation which makes the skin tone more yellow and slightly flatter.
In CS4 this change seems more intense. Comparing Monitor RGB soft proof mode between CS3 & 4 is exhibiting the same difference that I would see
between Monitor RGB and soft proof off in CS3 alone.
CS4 version is noticeably redder than CS3.
I was told by Lacie that the 324 will show a wider gamut in the reds and greens as compared to Apple.
I've done a screen grab that shows this difference. Grab was done on Lacie monitor using CS3 & 4, soft proof off/on.
hope I done everything correctly. I'm including this grab to try to make my descriptions less subjective. I realize browsers etc. will change colors but at least the differences between the images remains.
thanks.

[nadaman]

Hey PixelZombie, I did because someone who I thought knew more than me, told me to do it. I used to go to Image-Mode and change from there. But when I think about it using Convert to Profile does give you the option to specifically change within the mode you are changing to (web coated or sheet fed for CMYK for example). Both ways accomplish the same thing - one with the options exposed. Hope this helps.
cheers n.

[Markzebra]

… makes no difference to the WAY it converts, just allows you to choose options without changing your basic preferences. So its a compeletely distracting point.

[Markzebra]

Ok main topic - this is all getting very complex, feel like a kid getting that Rubics cube …*your description is quite difficult to understand if you don't mind me saying, especially because you are copying and pasting, and line breaks are confusing things.

The screen shot is fairly arbitary because it shows the same RGB colors in CS3 and 4 which is exactly what i would expect to see - proofing monitor RGB is maybe VERY subtly yellower in CS3 for some reason? There are no CMYK colors here and the main difference you were reporting, was to do with the way it was displaying CMYK colors I thought.

NOW - the most important line you have written, you are talking here about the LaCie …

Comparing Monitor RGB soft proof mode between CS3 & 4 is exhibiting the same difference that I would see > between Monitor RGB and soft proof off in CS3 alone.

THIS line doesn't make any sense - and is confusing things for me hugely.

You'll have to try again I'm sorry.

Let me explain - SOFT PROOFING is merely a change to the way photoshop displays your colors. When you choose "monitor RGB" its using the MONITOR PROFILE directly to display.

[nadaman]

I apologize. I will have to re think my presentation to you. I need to get some work out the door. May have to get back to you in a couple of days. Thank you for hanging in. Please look out for new message. Thanks.

[pixelzombie]

Originally Posted by nadaman

Hey PixelZombie, I did because someone who I thought knew more than me, told me to do it. I used to go to Image-Mode and change from there. But when I think about it using Convert to Profile does give you the option to specifically change within the mode you are changing to (web coated or sheet fed for CMYK for example). Both ways accomplish the same thing - one with the options exposed. Hope this helps.
cheers n.

i only ask as "converting to profile" is normally done with an output profile, "US web coated" is a working space..converting in such a manner will produce different colors than simply going from RGB to CMYK

[Markzebra]

… that depends on what you have in color settings. Convert To Profile command does nothing different to Image/mode/CMYK - it just gives you the direct conversion options and allows you to customize them per document. The definition of 'working space' just means whatever your document happens to be in, its usually refers to RGB working spaces. CMYK profiles are always specific, and US web coated is not an arbitary 'working space'.

converting in such a manner will produce different colors than simply going from RGB to CMYK

Not true - depends on your color settings Edit/Color settings if you have never discovered them.

[TommyO]

Food for thought for everyone:

- does the NVidia 8800GS support dual LUT's;
- does the LaCie 324 have an internal LUT, or does it use the graphic cards'.

Sorry, but I'm on the road and cannot look up all the spec's today.

[pixelzombie]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

… that depends on what you have in color settings. Convert To Profile command does nothing different to Image/mode/CMYK - it just gives you the direct conversion options and allows you to customize them per document. The definition of 'working space' just means whatever your document happens to be in, its usually refers to RGB working spaces. CMYK profiles are always specific, and US web coated is not an arbitary 'working space'.



Not true - depends on your color settings Edit/Color settings if you have never discovered them.

even when i use the same rendering intent, the 2 conversions don't match exactly..granted it's only a percent in one or more channels

[Markzebra]

Sorry that's complete nonsense, you've either chosen a different profile or you have different conversion options set.

[pixelzombie]

i double checked it before i made my post, if i'm doing something wrong i'd like to know where...

when i tried this again at work, they did match exactly so i have a problem with my set up at home

[nadaman]

Adobe tech support phoned me yesterday regarding this issue of which I
have an open case. He was looking at my attachments and told me he
could not see this red cast. He had 2 monitors - a calibrated Dell and a
calibrated imac Apple display. Neither had a hood and he was in a brightly
lit room. Can everyone see what I'm on about in attachments provided?
I'm using screen grabs and hoping differences in images will show.
I did suggest to Adobe that he try to see my attachments in a darker room.

[nadaman]

lets try it this way with no screen grabs:
- open file, flatten image using CS3.
- open file in CS3 and CS4, place files on top of one another.
- leave both files in Adobe RGB 1998.
- numerical values from picker points are virtually the same.
- go to Proof Setup and click Monitor RGB.
- use command Y to toggle soft proof on or off.

when toggling soft proof on and off on Lacie 324:
- both files look virtually the same on Lacie 324 with soft proof off.
- in CS3 there is some loss of saturation which
gives the appearance of a yellower, flatter skin tone
in Monitor RGB proof mode as compared to soft proof off.
- in CS4 the loss of saturation is more than in CS3
& it gives the appearance of a redder, flatter skin tone
in Monitor RGB proof mode as compared to soft proof off.
- if a Hue/Sat adjustment layer of master +4 hue, +5 saturation
is added to the CS4 file (when viewed in Monitor RGB proof mode only),
the files in CS4 and CS3 (both viewed in Monitor RGB proof mode)
look identical.

when toggling soft proof on and off on Apple display:
When the exact same test is done on my Apple display there is this loss
of saturation that leaves the skin tone flatter when Monitor RGB proof
mode is activated but there is no difference between CS3 or CS4.
If soft proof off - both CS3 & 4 images look identical.
if soft proof on (Monitor RGB) - both CS3 & 4 images look identical.

I hope this is a clearer presentation and I hope no one thinks I'm nuts.

[Markzebra]

On the first TWO attachments, the ones where you have the RGB and CMYK conversion - the Lacie on CS4 does look more red in the flesh tones of the CMYK only. This is more clearly visible by layering the screen shots on top of each other, and toggling them. Would help if the screen shots were higher res, but your man at Adobe is either blind or not used to judging these things.

I'll have another bash at trying to decipher your problem later on, but likely cause is CS4 is not recognizing the Lacie profile.

[nadaman]

If I ever allow the monitors into sleep mode - keeping the computer running,
going to lunch lets say. Upon waking, my Lacie profile must be activated again using the
Blue Eye software. Not sure what profile the Lacie defaults to but I was told by Lacie
that the surest way to activate my saved calibrated profile was by using the Blue Eye
software provided with the monitor. If I open my OS Display Preferences, I see that the proper profile is highlighted for the Lacie. But then activating my profile using Blue Eye does change the screen to what i think I should see.
This never happened with my last computer - IBM chip Powerbook with a Lacie 19" blue
CRT display.
Weird but I've grown accustomed to it as I wait for somebody to fix this.
My Apple display on my newer present intel iMac, never looses its assigned profile.
Not sure this has anything to do with the red cast issue but I thought it worth
mentioning.

[Markzebra]

If I open my OS Display Preferences, I see that the proper profile is highlighted for the Lacie. But then activating my profile using Blue Eye does change the screen to what i think I should see.

Ah, so resetting the LaCie profile in the Bue Eye monitor software DOES work - puts the profile back and it looks correct then? On both RGB and CMYK docs? Just to confirm.

What I'm assuming now …Photoshop thinks that the correct Lacie profile is activated at all times. When you sleep it de-actives the profile and needs to be reinstated. Is this likely to be correct?

[nadaman]

Anything that I have sent has been with the current calibrated Lacie profile activated.
I have my System Preferences and Blue Eye software open upon each and every start up.
If I am working on files in PS for any period of time, energy saver is set to "never" for monitor sleep & occasionally I will check with Blue Eye to see if the monitor is displaying the proper profile. I have yet to find the Lacie drop its profile on its own. It is only after a wake up does the profile need to be reactivated. I learned this lesson on a client file. I am now very careful.
I only use sleep mode for email days & sometimes turn off the 324 completely on such days.
I should also mention that I do allow for time for proper warm up for the 324 as well.
But anyway if the 324 dropped its profile, wouldn't it effect CS3 conversions?
I have no issues with CS3 presently. Its preforming as expected.
I was informed this morning by Lacie that this is a Mac/324 issue which neither company has done any firmware to fix to date. Could it have something to do with intel iMac. I don't know. Is Apple competing with Lacie and thus hoarding info, would not surprise me. Do Lacie's other 500 or 700 series monitors have the same issue? I would love to hear from other intel Mac/Lacie users.
Do you think that this could be contributing in some way to this problem? Why only in CS4?

[Markzebra]

But anyway if the 324 dropped its profile, wouldn't it effect CS3 conversions

No it will NEVER affect conversions. That's all internal stuff, and not related to monitor profiling. Unless you do anything daft and try and Convert to a monitor profile of course. As I said in a previous post these output numbers are measurable, so its possible to assess profile conversions with no regard to what the screen is showing you.

I was informed this morning by Lacie that this is a Mac/324 issue

Ok thats Lacie passing the buck. Most likely Their Blue Eye software is not playing correctly with system preferences. Its probably set to override what the system is doing. Unlikely to be intel related, but could be I guess.

Is there any way to deactivate the Lacie Blue Eye software completely? Still use it to Generate the correct profiles, but stop it activating, and allow your system to set the profile correctly? Use it in the same way as you are on the Imac screen in other words. You have to bear in mind that most of this software is probably designed for color stupid PC's - just assigning profiles in using mac Display preferences may be the way to go, with nothing interfering.

Why only in CS4?

Now THERE'S a question - and that's where you may need some expert advice. It could be that the Lacie software was designed before CS4 came out and doesn't recognize it, OR that Adobe have actually changed something. This is the most unlikely of these two suggestions.

[nadaman]

I tried:
Restart iMac, open mac OS Display Preferences, pick an older profile made by Blue Eye - just to see a change on 324 screen, open same file in CS4, convert to CMYK, & seeing the same red cast on 324.
Opening same file in CS3, all is good as before.
Switched back to my current profile using OS DPref with the same resulting
red cast as above in CS4.
All okay on Apple display as before.

Thanks for your efforts Markzebra. Guess I'll have to see what Adobe found out. I sure hope no buck passing he said she said stuff starts flying around.
I will keep everyone posted.
cheers.