Monitors: NECPA271W / 6-core / 2nd display

[CelticKC]

Okie-dokie. So my department purchased a NECPA271W and MacPro 6-Core (with 16gB of ram). I should say that I do all the Photoshop work, used for web and print, for a large university's creative department. I have the display connected to the computer via DVI but that leaves me no place to connect a small Dell display, which I use for palettes. This display is very sophisticated and, as such, is a little intimidating! I want to make sure I have things set up as optimally as possible right from the git-go.
I've used the Spectraview software and Eye One puck, purchased with the display, to calibrate. I did not use the pre-sets but instead wanted to set it up the same way I had my Apple Cinema with my old computer, a 2.66 ghz Dual Core. That is with a White Point of 6500, Gamma of 2.2 and Luminance of 120 cd/m2. On that computer I was using EyeOneMatch 3. On the new computer I set up my profile parameters as above, using Spectra View 2. I expected the results to be a close match but the newly profiled NEC looked a little green and the Apple Cinema a little red (relatively). I don't have the luxury of spending tons of time playing around with all the NEC's controls and not sure if this is wise. I just want to make sure I'm seeing color accurately and producing accurate color renderings of (mostly) Digital Negatives. So if there is anyone who can help with 1) connecting a 2nd display and 2) guidance for setting up the NEC calibration accurately and getting the most out of the display I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

[RSF]

Hi,

I'm new here and have no expert advice but I do have an NEC monitor (P221W using the Spectraview for calibration) and an older Dell monitor (1905FP) that I am using for palettes hooked up to a Quad Core MacPro. I don't know if any of my notes and problems will be of any help to you whatsoever but who knows.

I have the NEC hooked up via DVI and got an adapter (Mini DisplayPort to VGA) for the Dell at the Apple Store. I have not been able to get the two monitors exactly the same but they are closer color-wise right now then they have been in the past. I really don't care when I am working in Photoshop since I am only using the Dell for palettes. I recently started working in Lightroom and am using both displays and the although the Dell is nowhere near the quality of the NEC the color looks fine and it is workable for the way I am using it - to view my work larger.

I really love the NEC monitor but have had quite a time getting it set up satisfactorily. David Brooks (Shutterbug) did an article a couple of years ago re the monitor that I am using and I have used some of that information to help me choose some settings, most particularly setting the white luminance at 90 cd/m which he says helps produce prints that look like what one sees on the monitor. Just from driving myself nearly nuts at times trying to get the settings so they make me happy, I'm of the (not too expert) opinion that you will probably have a hard time using the settings you were using previously. I hope someone from here comes in and gives you some great advice. I'd like to follow the thread and learn something more myself even though we are using our monitos for different purposes. My bad news opinion is that you are probably going to have to play with this a bit and you may wind up wanting to check out the presets as a starting point if you can't get someone to give you some more definitive settings to try.

A friend who is on Flickr also has a similar monitor although hers is a newer model than mine (PA241W) we've had similar problems. For several months we've been discussing the issues we have been having getting the the product from these wide gamut monitors to view on various websites as we are seeing them in Photoshop, etc. The printing output is excellent and we are both very pleased with those results but viewing photos (some of our photos as well as those of Flickr contacts) on the web from one of these monitors can show some really weird results. The reds and often certain greens are so over saturated and garish that the photos are hard to view without sunglasses.

Hope I'm not chiming in where I don't belong but the subject does interest me

[girlsfather]

Originally Posted by CelticKC

That is with a White Point of 6500, Gamma of 2.2 and Luminance of 120 cd/m2.

I have an Quato Intelli Proof 213, calibrated with a xrite DTP94 and iColorDisplay. My settings are: 5000 Kelvin, gamma 1.8, 120cd/m2.
With this settings, I have are really good visual equivalent to my prints and proofs (under special graphic 5000 K proofing flourescent lightning)
The white point settings should match your ambient light. 6500 K might be o.k. in a printhouse environment where 6500K flourescent lightning is more common.

[RobertAsh]

That explains a lot. I recently departed from the common wisdom I'd been told up until now, and reset my Eizo CE210W monitor to 5000K instead of 6500K. Works noticeablybetter. I'd always wondered where 6500K advice came from when:

• Daylight balanced flourescent lighting is closer to 5000K
• Flash units, especially small units, balance to 5000-5500K

Now I know. Thanks, that's very useful information.

I also reset my luminance -- to 80 cd/m^2. Because again, the 120 cd/m^2 I've been told and have read about frequently is too bright. My monitor is still noticeably brighter than my prints but it's a much better match.

Unlike many of the folks here I work on photographic editing in normal home room lights, not in a pre-press office environment.

So the moral of the story is, don't necessarily feel you have to use 'standard' settings for the industry. If your monitor isn't matching your prints (or whatever output you want) then adjust what's different until you get a good match.

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by RSF

A friend who is on Flickr also has a similar monitor although hers is a newer model than mine (PA241W) we've had similar problems. For several months we've been discussing the issues we have been having getting the the product from these wide gamut monitors to view on various websites as we are seeing them in Photoshop, etc. The printing output is excellent and we are both very pleased with those results but viewing photos (some of our photos as well as those of Flickr contacts) on the web from one of these monitors can show some really weird results. The reds and often certain greens are so over saturated and garish that the photos are hard to view without sunglasses.

Have you tried converting your files to sRGB before exporting? sRGB works much better for the Web. Wide gamut printers (with the right paper!) can reproduce a wider range of colors, but the Web is still mostly involving narrow-gamut viewing devices.

[RSF]

Thanks so much for your reply. Yes, my friend and I have both done this. We have also tried playing with multiple different settings. She is still not totally satisfied but is sick and tired of stewing about it. For me at present working from Lightroom and using ProPhoto RGB I try to make certain if I go to Photoshop from Lightroom and then use Save for the Web in PS that "save icc profile" is checked. I haven't tried saving directly to sites like Flickr from Lightroom as yet. I'm just barely getting my feet wet.

If I use Photoshop in RGB mode it is the same thing, the icc profile must be included when converting or the sRGB is way too saturated when viewing with a wide gamut display and on a regular monitor the color looks a bit more soft than the original. With the icc profiles embedded however the photos look identical to me from either computer.

Generally, I choose to view sites like Flickr from a MacBook Pro laptop rather than my desktop and NEC display - mainly because the color for my contacts photos tend to look more "normal". My photos now look the same on both computers but those of others are often just plain garish when viewed with the NEC. My Flickr contact wrote NEC support and they said to create two different targets - one to work photos and another to view the web in sRGB and then switch back and forth. Yikes! I'll just continue to use the laptop unless and until someone comes up with a fix. I thought I was just too much of a gunsil to figure out how to set up the monitor so I was glad I found someone who was having the same problem.

PS: It doesn't seem to matter which browser I use I've compared Safari and Firefox side-by-side and the results on the NEC look nearly identical.

[RobertAsh]

In Photoshop, have you tried:

• Edit > Convert to Profile > sRGB IEC61966-2.1

You should be able to see your image get bland, flattened and otherwise less interesting right before your very eyes

As you can tell, I don't like its effect at all, but it does for me save for the web or export to a JPEG that doesn't change radically after that sRGB conversion. And it views in a browser just fine, as far as browser viewing goes.

[andrewrodney]

Originally Posted by CelticKC

I set up my profile parameters as above, using Spectra View 2. I expected the results to be a close match but the newly profiled NEC looked a little green and the Apple Cinema a little red (relatively). I don't have the luxury of spending tons of time playing around with all the NEC's controls and not sure if this is wise. I just want to make sure I'm seeing color accurately and producing accurate color renderings of (mostly) Digital Negatives.

Probably not. First of all, EyeOne Match vs. SpectraView software, an Apple display versus the NEC are totally different. The target calibration aim points will not necessarily match. The right target calibration settings are those that produce a match to a print under a nearby controlled viewing booth. Most important are those for luminance and white point. This article might help:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...too_dark.shtml

[andrewrodney]

Originally Posted by RSF

David Brooks (Shutterbug) did an article a couple of years ago re the monitor that I am using and I have used some of that information to help me choose some settings, most particularly setting the white luminance at 90 cd/m which he says helps produce prints that look like what one sees on the monitor.

Which is nonsensical until one defines the print viewing conditions. First of all, 90cd/m2 is really, really, really low for a modern LCD to hit. 2nd, for all nature of print viewing conditions, its never going to produce a match. In fact, it will only match if you are lucky in terms of what you are using to view the prints. Until that is defined, its impossible and irresponsible to suggest a setting for luminance. Brook’s doesn’t get it (I know, I tried to explain this to him years ago). A picture is worth at thousands words, lets try this:

http://digitaldog.net/files/Print_to...n_Matching.jpg

[RSF]

Thanks for the reply. Guess I'm back to my confused state. Feel uncertain where to go from here but guess it's back to the drawing board. The NEC manuals aren't too helpful. I'm not using special lighting just home Verilux daylight type lamps or whatever is coming through the window so I may be limiting myself but that's what I've got.

I want to learn to do some restoration for some very old family photos (1800's to 1950's) that are very precious to me. My primary hope coming to this website is to learn more about restoring but I also enjoy photography a great deal and am enthusiastic about learning all I can to work in Photoshop. I would like to be able to produce the best work I can without going broke trying to achieve such a goal. It's a bit frustrating to not be able to figure this out - I'm actually a plug and play kinda gal so some of this feels a bit above my level.

I do appreciate your feedback it gave me pause.

[RSF]

Thanks, I think I've tried this but I'll try it again to test it out, without the icc profile, just to see what happens. Actually I'm not having a problem any longer with the way my photos look on the web regardless of which monitor it's mainly those of some of those from others when viewed from the NEC. Appreciate your thoughts on the problem.

Originally Posted by RobertAsh

In Photoshop, have you tried:

• Edit > Convert to Profile > sRGB IEC61966-2.1

You should be able to see your image get bland, flattened and otherwise less interesting right before your very eyes

As you can tell, I don't like its effect at all, but it does for me save for the web or export to a JPEG that doesn't change radically after that sRGB conversion. And it views in a browser just fine, as far as browser viewing goes.

[CelticKC]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, advice and corroborating anecdotes! I did purchase a DVI to mini-DV adapter from my friendly neighborhood Apple store. I was UN-able to connect the Dell, which I could not wake up from Power Save mode once connected. Would like to figure out how to resolve THAT little issue, since I may be stuck with the Dell. Meantime I have connected my old Cinema as my 2nd display, using the adapter and going into the 6-core's mini DV port.

My viewing conditions are not ideal but we do have a portable viewing booth that I will borrow to match to press samples. Thanks Andrew. Problem there is I retouch files as much for the web as for print. I suppose I could use their "Photo Editing" preset as a base and create a second profile that previews print more accurately (though I'm not keen on switching back and forth all the time).

When I unpacked the NEC a few weeks back I basically calibrated right out of the box and, even though I had the display on for several hours before calibrating, I got a message saying the display had not been sufficiently warmed up for the most accurate calibration. I calibrated today and got the same message. Frustrating. I am also still wondering about the NEC's OSD settings and whether or not I can or should (and how as well) try to dial the display in from there before calibrating. I have yet to check out all the options there. If anyone out there have tweaked those dials and pushed those buttons I'd like to hear what you've discovered.

Since I hooked up the Apple Cinema as my second display I have noticed that the Apple is sharper and displays richer blacks. This may just mean I need to get my parameters tweaked optimally on the NEC. Unfortunately I have production work to do!! It's a little unnerving to have them side -by-side rendering color, whites and neutral grays very differently.

It's funny how "standards" change. I spent many years in the print industry where 5000K and Gamma 1.8 reigned supreme. It has tilted over the past few years to 6500K and Gamma 2.2. I guess I have followed these standards because I figured people much smarter and more experienced than me have been making these judgements based on changing technology. Maybe it's more arbitrary then that!

Just curious to know if anyone has used NEC's Customer Support and, if so, were they helpful. That's my next move.

Still struggling but thanks again for all the valuable feedback!

[RSF]

I had to fiddle with mine a bit to get the Dell monitor to come on - plugged and unplugged things a few times and then all of a sudden - poof, there it was. Since then I've had something happen like a sudden power outage (rural power systems, not quite as bad as Baghdad but some days....) and when I turned the computer back on the Dell did not seem to be working. I've found by shutting down, unplugging the Dell from the Mac, replugging it back in and then turning the computer, logging back into the Mac it would start working. Of course nothing happened until I logged in. You may have already tried all of this or variations on the theme, if so, never mind :-)

My friend did try using Customer Support several times and as I understand it they weren't too difficult to reach. I believe she did it totally by email rather than phone. You might give that a try to see what happens.

[CelticKC]

Thanks.I'll try fiddling.