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Elements and Channels

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  #11  
Old 03-09-2003, 01:12 AM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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Andrew - yes - it is certainly possible - with a bit of tweaking and pulling around. Richard has a one click tool that can do this. The way I have done this in the past is from a tutorial on Jay Arraich's very useful Element's website and involves using a layer mask as an intermediate (before the add-on tools I used the layer mask in a temporarily added adjustment layer).

Select and copy the greyscale layer: paste into the layer mask; deselect; command-click (I'm on a Mac - control click for Win I guess) on the layer mask thumbnail to load the mask as a selection; then save the selection which can then be loaded into whatever layer you like. I haven't checked whether this gives an identical result to Richard's.
Susan S.
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  #12  
Old 03-09-2003, 01:18 AM
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Andrew B. Andrew B. is offline
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Thanks Susan. All my questions are answered.
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2003, 03:41 AM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Andrew,

Thanks for trying to correct the color in my image. Your adjustment, using levels, was what I initially did. I had my pro lab print the image. I'm a wedding photographer. Turned out that the skin tones were still too muddy! The red dress was off red. And my blue background had turned green!!!

After many hours of manipulation, using scanner techniques (1/2 stop analog gain in Nikon scan), using Elements the hard way. Selecting the dress, and background individually (using lasso tool, and color saturation) I came up with this improved image (see link).

I'm just looking for a better/easier way? If that is possible? I also would like to know why the image did not scan properly? I did not have channels or some of Richard's tools for Elements prior to fixing this image by brute force!

Dave


http://home.infi.net/~ldlikes/redgroupb.jpg
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  #14  
Old 03-09-2003, 04:11 AM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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Wow! Dave - that is a very red dress! Perhaps the scanner just didn't believe the colour when it saw it . I had a go at the image as a practice for using the techniques given in Chapter four of Richard's book and used curves on the individual channels - and in general found that the channels did not need much tweaking to get the face tones cleared up and the blue background un-greened. But that correction did not bring the red dress up to anything like *that* colour red - it remained firmly dark-peach whatever I did to the other channels, keeping the flesh tones within reason.
Susan S.
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  #15  
Old 03-09-2003, 06:36 AM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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I could just be seeing things, but it looks like that second version of the image was not the natural color of the dress. I am guessing this by the detail loss in shadowing and texture. It is not a bad result, but there are better and worse ways of getting there.

Something that you might try is using a Luminosity layer created from the image after the innitial adjustment.

1. finish your general color correction.
2. duplicate the layer
3. desaturate the layer (if you have hidden power, you can just click Add Luminosity).
4. insert another layer between the original and the luminosity layer.
5. paint over the dress with the color of your choice on that layer.
6. experiment with a few of the modes, like color burn, overlay, pin light and linear light. The opacity for this layer is probably best at 25-50%. Note I did NOT say to use Color mode. In my experience, it is usually not the best idea for recoloring information.

I used that to get the results here:

http://hiddenelements.com/samples/redgroup2.jpg

Judging from your sample, this may appear over-saturated. If so, one of us needs to recalibrate -- and it could be me. I've been playing with a lot of things recently, and not all of them have been nice to my configurations.

I still think exploring the Blend Mask function will get the best result over-all in Elements as it will be better at targeting the color for change.
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2003, 02:08 PM
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Andrew B. Andrew B. is offline
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Hi Dave,

I think we both agree that you should not have to go to all this trouble, and that there is something wrong at the scanner end of things. Have you tried asking for help in one of the pro photographer forums. Such as the ones at:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/

Another place that comes to mind is

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/

They are more focused on the equipment, but you might find some tips from people who use the same equipment you do.

There is also a professional photographers forum on Compuserve. You cannot post unless you join, but it is free to join

http://forums.compuserve.com/vlforum...p?SRV=PhotoPro
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  #17  
Old 03-10-2003, 10:01 AM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Susan S.
Wow! Dave - that is a very red dress!Susan S.
Susan,

Yes, the dress looks too saturated on my monitor too! But increasing the saturation is what I had to do (took me like four trys--back and forth to the lab), in order to get the color right in the print. Note: the print looks less saturated than the image on the screen.

I don't know if it is because I am using an sRGB profile? But that is what my lab recommends!

Dave
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  #18  
Old 03-10-2003, 10:14 AM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Richard,

Your image is the best I've seen done of the skin tones yet leaving the background the correct color of blue. Still--too much saturation in the faces. The dress is better, but not red enough.

Andrew,

Thanks for the tip. I belong to Zuga.net (professional and amatuer photographers) and have posted this problem on their site with not much luck.

I get this problem only once and a while, like 1 in 20 scans. Other scans and color corrections come out fine? That is why my thinking is it has something to do with the scanner or film/developing?

Just want to nail it down! Currently, I am working with Nikon, to see if it is a problem with the scanners color management system? As when I turn off color management, I get better reds in the dress?

Dave
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2003, 04:39 PM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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Dave - colour management is such a complicated issue that I do not pretend to understand it. I only know that I get much more predictable printed results when I use the no colour management work-flow with Elements that Richard suggests in his book. (that solved so many problems for me on its own that I reckon the book was worth the exhorbitant number of Australian dollars that I had to pay for it (compared to the Amazon US price!)) But I am not getting things professionally printed.

One possibility that occurs to me is that the very bright red may be out of gamut (I think that's the correct term!) for CMYK printing - it just isn't translatable easily to printing inks- and this would have led to the need to oversaturate the red in the RGB image that you supplied to the printer to get something close to what you wanted in the printed output.
Susan S.
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2003, 06:17 PM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Susan,

According to Nikon, you are absolutely right! They called me today. The level 2 specialist I talked to made a scan by scan comparison of my problem negative. My scan verses theirs. They say that I am scanning out of gamut (they are too). Both sRGB and Adobe 1998 profiles are not covering the whole color range!

Suggestion is to use Scanner RGB which appears to allow more color. It definitely is getting the dress more red (I tried it).

I've found once scanned, I can convert to an sRGB profile and still keep the improved color!

Will have to put it to the test and send a test to the lab.

Thanks,

Dave
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