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  #21  
Old 03-10-2003, 07:16 PM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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Well I was half right! I was thinking out of gamut for printing rather than for scanning .
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  #22  
Old 03-10-2003, 07:25 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Dave,

Remember that corrections made without seeing the original make it VERY difficult to match anything. That is but one variation I could have chosen...and i also allotted about 5 minutes for the correction.

You may have to use a variety of tools to get a result, and much of the result will depend on the calibration (if, like most people, you look at the screen while correcting). In the book I do go through ways to get more accurate results quickly, using curves and a printed gray card. But, it also depends on what you want to match...if there is nothing to match, you go by preference.

I guess my point was, you could potentially make other adjustments, and that the red change in your last example seemed to me to lose detail in the dress folds. The suggestion was the color could be improved without that loss.

Glad you are getting somewhere. Watch out for profiles...they can help -- or hurt.
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2003, 10:57 AM
Ken Ken is offline
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Smile Painting dress

Richard,
Have been working on a picture of mine and trying to adapt the suggestions which you made re the red dress. In step#4 do you suggest a new (blank) layer to be inserted and the painting to be done on that, or to insert a duplicate layer of the original? In other words, would you be so kind as to clarify step #4 for me.
Thanks.
Ken
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2003, 11:56 AM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Insert a layer. Blank. Between the duplicated layer and the background.

When you place the luminosity on top, everything below will assume the tone from the luminosity layer. The color changes you make below it will assume the tone. You may need to adjust or target the luminosity (e.g., make a levels change or mask) to influence the tone as it is applied to the color.

Does that make more, or less sense?
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  #25  
Old 03-11-2003, 12:20 PM
Ken Ken is offline
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Painting

Thanks for the reply. It makes sense. I take it, then, that the "painting" is to be done on the inserted, blank layer. Am I correct?
Ken
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  #26  
Old 03-11-2003, 01:09 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Keep in mind there are other ways to get similar results and affect these changes in different ways...but yes, in the scenario I set up, you want to paint on the blank.

OK?
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2003, 01:38 PM
Ken Ken is offline
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Painting

Thanks. OK.
Ken
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2003, 04:32 PM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Question Darn Profiles!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard_Lynch
Dave,

Glad you are getting somewhere. Watch out for profiles...they can help -- or hurt.
Richard,

Still having trouble with profiles and Nikon Scan. Tech support suggested using the Scanner RGB profile in 12 bit scan mode to improve the color in the dress. But I tried that and it went into OVERKILL!!! Blew the color saturation to almost BLACK!! So its back to the drawing board!

Question: Should I scan some images using a profile and others without? Kind of check color and if it seems wrong turn C. Management off? Then covert them all to sRGB in Elements once they are scanned? Seems the real color loss occurs during the initial scan.

Also, I wondering what will happen when I don't embed a profile? Basically Turn color management off in Nikon Scan. I have some reservations about doing this. But I read in your book that you don't use color management. Also, I think I read where you suggest not embedding a profile either?

I guess the only way is to try it? But then it means sending to different labs--as I use more than one--what a mess!!! I was under the impression that the only way to get the color right is to embed a profile. Reason I bought this scanner.

Now I'm confused?

Dave
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2003, 07:16 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Sounds to me like you need a color overhaul. You need to go through in order and calibrate (first) your scanner, then monitor. I believe I talk about this in the book. If you are working on calibrated systems, you should not have the wild swings you are talking about.

I find that profiles are dangerous (the extra stair in the staircase). You really have to know what you are doing with them to IMPROVE your results. Most people use them because they think they have to. Well, long before there were profiles, people were getting results.

What happens when you don't use them? I guess I am more interested in what DOESN'T happen. You can't go embedding the wrong profile and ruining your color based on an unknown (you can only ruin it based on knowns!). The image should get treated by the numbers without the profile embedded, and that means that the 'magic' that gets done behind the scenes doesn't happen. I am, of course, sarcasticly using 'magic'. A profile in the hands of a master will still only get the values possible in a CMYK image...You don't suddenly get a true broader range of possibility -- the inks remain the same color. What you do is get an adjustment as to how those colors are handled. if the profiles are wrong, you get the wrong results. Profiles, as far as I am concerned add an unnecessary variable.

If you read the section in the book on calibration and management, I am really suggesting you don't use embedded profiles if you don't know what they do. I have suggested ways to Adobe that they might go to make profiles smarter, easier to use, and more friendly...but I really don't think that they are interested in that. You are left with a ratheer daunting task with your first selection in opening the program for the very first time -- choosing how to manage color. Chances are you have no idea. You can make the wrong choice, and it'll ruin hundreds of images before you really learn what to do with it.

I'll get off the burning soapbox now. My position is not a terribly popular one, but I know far fewer people who struggle WITHOUT embedding profiles because it offers the opportunity to locate the problem. I would only use profiles once i am sure I can get results without them. After that you can start using them as a tool -- or not use them at all. I don't.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2003, 08:28 PM
Dave Likes Dave Likes is offline
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Yes

Richard,

My monitor is calibrated using Adobe Gamma (may be buying a spider soon). I tried to calibrate my scanner for about a year until I called Nikon and they told me I didn't need to do that. My Coolscan 35mm Film scanner calibrates itself every 5 minutes!!!

Actually the wild things that are happening to me are very few in nature. This red dress problem happed over 1 and 1/2 years ago! I've gotten some pretty good scans out of my Nikon since. It is just those few (1 in 20) that ruin my confidence! I dug up this problem from my archives just to tackle it once and for all! I wanted to know what the problem was!

As a wedding pro I use my scanner as a last resort to fix problem images. So it is very intimidating when I can't do it every time--to save my behind. Sort of defeats having the machine in the first place. So I have not used the machine all that much because of this.

Up until this month, I was convinced I had a bad batch of film. Little did I know it was a color profile problem! I had heard about color profile this and color profile that--but never really saw any difference when testing previously? I guess it happens to certain colors (vibrant reds, blues etc).

Now I know what to look for! I'll have to see what I can come up with without using color management.

Thanks for the info,

Dave
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