Hidden Power Support - - Edit > Color Settings

HDProman · #1 08-04-2003, 08:57 AM

Edit > Color Settings in Elements gives me three choices. I have read in dpreviews retouching forum that Elements does "not" handle color management as well as PS7. What does PS7 offer regarding color management that Elements does not? What setting in Elements should I be using; I assume "full color management".

I have just purchased I-one display and want to make sure Elements is using the monitor profile that was created. How can I be sure Elements is using this monitor profile to color correct what I seeing on my monitor?

I have your book; however, I have not finished reading all sections. If the answers to my questions are in the book, then just tell me to get busy and read and I will not be offended.

pmarchant · #2 08-04-2003, 06:17 PM

Richard covers color management on pp15-25. Since you have the I-one to create your monitor profile you don't need to run Adobe Gamma. So you can just skim through the "Calibrating Your Monitor and Building an ICC Profile" part (it's probably worth reading for background though).

I don't have the full PS, and have never used it. But from what I've read it seems PS allows you to specify/override the input profile, and there is a "soft-print" mode (I think that's what it's called) which allows you to supposedly see what the print output would look like. Elements can't do either of these. I expect those who have PS can tell you more...

Cheers,
Paul.

Richard_Lynch · #3 08-04-2003, 06:20 PM

Handling color management 'well' may be a matter of opinion. My book has my recommendations. My opinion is that NEITHER program handles color management well, as if they did, then there wouldn't be nearly so many questions. I believe all this color management stuff could be greatly simplified by putting more control in the users hand rather than doing the usual (as Adobe does) and wresting the control from the user.

All that said, you can create an ICC profile and get some very decent previews in Elements...in fact, it is my humble opinion that the additional options as offered in Photoshop are more apt to confuse users than help them.

Others will disagree.

did that help?

pmarchant · #4 08-04-2003, 06:53 PM

Richard,

I found your recommendations worked best for me. Before that I was getting appalling print results on my inkjet, and all the tweaking to "fix" the problems just made things worse (one particularly bad print had way too much magenta and made the subjects look like they had fallen into a vat of blackcurrant juice!).

Paul.

HDProman · #5 08-04-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HDProman
Edit > Color Settings in Elements gives me three choices. I have read in dpreviews retouching forum that Elements does "not" handle color management as well as PS7. What does PS7 offer regarding color management that Elements does not? What setting in Elements should I be using; I assume "full color management".

I have just purchased I-one display and want to make sure Elements is using the monitor profile that was created. How can I be sure Elements is using this monitor profile to color correct what I seeing on my monitor?

I have your book; however, I have not finished reading all sections. If the answers to my questions are in the book, then just tell me to get busy and read and I will not be offended.

So is "full color management the correct setting, and "again" how do I know Elements is using my monitor profile created by I-One?

HDProman · #6 08-04-2003, 10:53 PM

Just took a test picture with my Canon G3 and opened the picture directly from CF card in Elements. Selected save as with "no color management" and see this screen.
http://www.pbase.com/image/20006972/medium.jpg
If I turn on "full color management I see the same screen. My G3 uses sRGB and I do not see anything about using Adobe RGB or the profile created by I-One Display which is named.

C:\WINDOWS\System32\spool\drivers\color\Monitor_7-12-2003_1.icc

I feel I must have a good basic understanding of how color management works, how all the pieces fit together and make sure I have this puzzle put together correctly. I have the pieces and they are all up in the air. I only need to bring them down and put the puzzle together.

With a picture open in Elements I can select each option under settings > color management and the colors will change. I opened a color target from Dry Creek Photo the differences where very noticeable. For sure the setting makes a difference, I just do not know what is happing and how to choose the correct settings. The puzzle is just not coming together, who can help.

Richard_Lynch · #7 08-05-2003, 03:29 AM

You get results in print by examining and simplifying process -- as far as I am concerned. If you look at the recommendations in the book as Paul did, the process of simplifying (and looking at what the process is doing) should help you weed out all the complications. One of these complications is handling profiles.

My suggestion in the book is that you not work with embedding profiles and other fancy configurations till you can get results without them (and if you are getting results without them, the step isn't necessary).

I would NOT assume the Full Color Management option is "the way to go". There are 3 options, and all of them are there for a reason (or else Adobe wouldn't have included them and they'd just have made the decision for you). Personally I use No Color Management. Your selection should reflect your workflow and how you choose to work with color.

As far as what profile is being used, you will need to find out what is controlling the screen views currently, and what utility is managing your profiles. Right at this moment I am forgetting where this is assigned on a PC...on Mac OS X, you assign the RGB profile using the Display control panel (system prefs). This will be used by Elements to generate standard previews.

When you go to SAVE, that screen is just a Save As screen. I believe this will offer options no matter what your current setting for Management. However, you will note at the bottom there is an option to embed the sRGB profile. I am wondering what option you had when you went to save, as this suggests Limited Color Management...but also may suggest that the ICC profile you THOUGHT you were using isn't there, and that images coming from the camera are tagged as sRGB. The latter is quite possible as Elements uses the EXIF data to assign profiles unless you shut it off with a plugin. That discussion occurred on this list somewhere....the plugin is free. here is the EXIF discussion

Hope that helps.

If Adobe would do less to hide the process of defining ICC profiles, more people would understand them and perhaps get the right result. I used to use an inexpensive utility (not made anymore) that would allow you to essentially create your own preview profiles and assign them for comparison on the fly...was the best for working an image to its potential in RGB and then clicking a preview for the printer.

I guess my question for you would be: what are you trying to accomplish with the profile?

Stephen M · #8 08-05-2003, 06:40 AM

Links to some ICC colour management primers, not written for PSE but they may help in the broader context.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binar...V_links.html#I

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binar...V_links.html#C

From what I gather, PSE will be using either sRGB or Adobe RGB as the editing space where images are worked - while the monitor profile is being used behind the scene to display the editing space colours as close as possible.

So, if one is using limited colour management and thus sRGB, what happens if a tagged Apple RGB file is opened? What happens if a untagged image is opened? Are there any warnings or questions to act upon, or are there automatic conversions from the tagged image profile to the current editing space (sRGB or Adobe RGB depending on settings). Does PSE have policies, preserve, convert etc.

Stephen Marsh.

Richard_Lynch · #9 08-05-2003, 08:26 AM

Stephen,

Almost everything about color management is handled automatically based on the settings. Options are available on Save As. There are only three settings...essentially one respects color profiling, another is intended for web work, and a third shows some disinterest in profiles. I've broken it down in the book. I believe short descriptions are available in the documentation. Most best-guess issues are treated behind the scenes, probably much like default PS behaviors.

By combining methods (changing color management settings) when the image is open, you can manage the workflow to a greater extent.

Reimar · #10 08-05-2003, 11:36 AM

So to conclude: I have a printer profile, and use the eye-one display to calibrate my monitor, then prints should match the monitor display (in PSE or Qimage or whatever). Is that right?

I don't use color management in PSE1. Adobe Gamma just doesn't get the screen display right (compared to other computers or my profiled prints). I've ordered eye-1 and am keeping my fingers crossed.

pmarchant · #11 08-05-2003, 06:46 PM

The match may be close but most likely not always 100%. This is because the gamuts of the monitor and "printer" will be different, and any colours outside the intersection of the gamuts will have been approximated.

I say "printer" because the actual print gamut depends on the paper/ink combination rather than the printer itself.

Also, since prints are reflective the viewing light can affect colour perception (i.e. metamerism)

Cheers,
Paul.

Reimar · #12 08-12-2003, 07:14 AM

My print output is very weak on greens and cyans. I use no color management in PE1 and so I assume my CP4500 pictures in sRGB stay in sRGB in Elements. Can I change my working space in Elements to be AdobeRGB? How? Will this give me more greens and cyans in the print? I calibrated the monitor using i-1 display (which looks good) and have an Epson printer profile that I use in Qimage.

Richard_Lynch · #13 08-12-2003, 03:07 PM

What are your images from source? A digital camera?

Have you tried not using Qimage and forgoing the profile?

Reimar · #14 08-12-2003, 06:29 PM

Sorry, the CP4500 means the Nikon 4 Mpixel coolpix. The EXIF data mentions sRGB. I'm addicted to Qimage and would never print without it. Quality and flexibility are unsurpassed. In spite of the problems I'm having with the custom profile I had made by Cathy, using the color sliders is just as unpredictable. I am now trying to use curves in a batch filter in Qimage to correct the print color caste. In the end I may get another profile made.
I had heard that adobe RGB has a wider gamut, much of which many printers can accomodate. So I thought my using sRGB might contribute to the color problems. What do I know about color management.

Richard_Lynch · #15 08-13-2003, 04:38 AM

RGB has a wider gammut, but CMYK and RGB are not synonymous and you can't get the printer to print RGB color. Though you wouldn't print without Qimage, I recommend giving it a try. At this point I am not sure the results are unsurpassed if you aren't getting the results you want. In any case, you want to try cutting down on the number of variables to isolate the problem...this would be a first step. Doesn't mean you won't go back to it later.

What kind of paper are you using?