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sharpen plus tool

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2004, 01:40 PM
lary_s lary_s is offline
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sharpen plus tool

I seem to be having some difficulty with the sharpen plus tool. When I split luminosity, select the lum layer and then the tool the first step works well and gives an improved image. Then the actions selects the composit layer for the second sharpening step which doesn't seem right and doesn't seem to do anything. On the other hand when I start with the background, the tool progresses fine but the result looks awful.
confused,

Lary
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2004, 09:36 PM
dpnew dpnew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lary_s
I seem to be having some difficulty with the sharpen plus tool. When I split luminosity, select the lum layer and then the tool the first step works well and gives an improved image. Then the actions selects the composit layer for the second sharpening step which doesn't seem right and doesn't seem to do anything. On the other hand when I start with the background, the tool progresses fine but the result looks awful.
confused,
Unfortunately, that seems to be another of the annoying mistakes in the book. You can get the Sharpen Plus tool to work if you turn off the visibility on all the layers except the Luminosity layer. However, when I tried to use the Sharpen Plus tool, I never could get results that were any good, so I don't think the tool has any value. If you want to sharpen your image and get good results, as well as USM, try these sharpening techniques

Smart Sharpening
http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=69

High Pass sharpening
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...arpening.shtml

Last edited by dpnew; 02-18-2004 at 09:44 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2004, 12:33 AM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Dear Mr. New,

I am not sure what the problem is, but you are extremely negative about the book and tools. If you don't like the stuff, please return it and get something else that you find fitting. Again, again, i am not saying there are not some errors, apologies, apologies...but there is also no need to be so gruff. I will be glad to see your book when it comes out, as i am sure it will be much better.

The tool was originally designed and tested in the latter stages of the Elements 2 beta, where it worked just fine. The problem is that a late change in the beta (after the book was already going to press, and before the release of the clean version) corrected an error where too many steps ended up recorded in the History (which, to my own demise, I complained about). Because the tool was created before the correction, the series as released steps back one step too many, and in this case it brings you to the wrong layer. It is a simple problem really.

What you would want to do is make the sharpening (USM) application manually. All you do is this:

1. Split the luminosity and color.
2. Click the Sharpen tool
3. Click the Luminosity layer, and apply Unsharp Mask.

Again, the IDEA is far more important than the implementation of the tool. if you are really interested, i can easily make a replacement available. However, I would appreciate it if we could all play nice. negativity makes it a little distasteful to have to trudge over here to provide support.

Thanks!
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Old 02-20-2004, 08:15 AM
lary_s lary_s is offline
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Thanks

Thanks,

That is how I thought I should do it, however, being relatively new at this I always wonder if its me or the program.

While I'm at it, let me ask some other questions on sharpening. It's my understanding that one should use different technques for different situations or effects (duh) but I not clear on which ones work best for which. The manual sharpeing thread suggests the sharpen tool is best for shadows and highlights so much midtones. Prehaps you could give us a kind of list for the different times you use different techniques?

My primary situation is trying to sharpen wood furniture. For my portofolio, i am always trying to push the limits of my digital camera to get as sharp and image as I can (Wish I could afford a better camera). What would you then to use for sharpening wood grain, especially when the grain is just about at the limit of resolution? It seems that the edge finding method would not work well because there are essentiall edges everywhere. Any tips would be greatly appreaciate. Thanks

lary
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  #5  
Old 02-20-2004, 10:14 AM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Can you post a sample image?
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  #6  
Old 02-20-2004, 10:51 AM
dpnew dpnew is offline
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While I'm at it, let me ask some other questions on sharpening. It's my understanding that one should use different technques for different situations or effects (duh) but I not clear on which ones work best for which.

Since sharpening is a matter of personal taste, that's a hard question to answer. I would start with USM, but if the image is too busy, and the sharpening effect isn't what you want, then try Smart sharpening or High Pass sharpening. As you get more experience trying different things, you'll find out what works and what doesn't--for me the Sharpen tool and Sharpen Plus tool don't produce good results.


What would you then to use for sharpening wood grain, especially when the grain is just about at the limit of resolution? It seems that the edge finding method would not work well because there are essentiall edges everywhere.

I would suggest the USM filter, but no sharpening method can bring sharpness to an image that isn't focused and clear to begin with, so if the wood grain is at the limit of the resolution, you may not be able to sharpen it well.
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  #7  
Old 02-20-2004, 01:20 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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Making suggestions without seeing the image and knowing what needs to be sharpened is a real crap shoot. Using a single method doesn't promise the possibility of making an optimal correction. I would treat very light or very dark wood differently than a medium toned wood. To some extent it is a matter of taste, and to another extent it is practice and knowing good technique. USM will enhance contrast and manual sharpening provided with the book will reduce it. Depending on the image you can use either or both. High Pass using Hard Light as described in that tutorial will make broad changes to image color. I am not convinced that it would be a good idea to use this on a color image without separating luminosity from the color. The process is somewhat kin to the Sharpen tool in the book (which I don't believe should be used straight on color images either).

DPNEW, the sharpen (we've discussed the issue with the Plus tool -- which can be worked around easily) from my book doesn't produce good results for you because you are obviously using it incorrectly. This mimics the darkroom process that the filter was developed from, and it is not likely that it just doesn't work. If it didn't the USM (which is based on a calculation rather than a comparison) would not exist.
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2004, 01:29 PM
Ken Ken is offline
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Sharpening

Larry,
Try this:
Duplicate layer
Filter>other>high pass setting 10%
Layers>hard light opacity 30-70%
Ken
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2004, 02:09 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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If you must use High Pass, please do it as follows:

1. Flatten image (otherwise I have nowhere to start)
2. Duplicate the background. Change the Mode to Luminosity. Name the layer Luminosity.
3. Duplicate the Luminosity layer. Change the mode to Hard Light, name it High Pass, and group the High Pass and Luminosity layers (Luminosity should be the base of the group).
4. Run the High Pass filter on the High Pass layer. SETTINGS WILL VARY DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IN THE IMAGE.

I don't believe it works any better than USM for most images. However, the method I've depicted above separates out the color from the tone so that the color is not affected by the change and application of the filter. This will most likely produce superior results to just flatly applying the change to the image.
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2004, 02:49 PM
Ken Ken is offline
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Sharpen

Thanks, Richard.
Works nicely.
I had actually separated an image in to foreground and background, then split RGBL on the foreground, and sharpened the luminosity layer and applied curves. That way the forground stands out, leaving the backgound less prominent. When I took the picture I should taken it in aperture priority to adjust the depth of field, but did not do it because of the constraint of the moment.
Ken

Last edited by Ken; 02-20-2004 at 02:55 PM.
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