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ICC embedded

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  #1  
Old 05-04-2004, 09:18 AM
Reimar Reimar is offline
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ICC embedded

I just switched from PE 1 to PE2. I am using a Nikon D70. Now I notice that whenever I want to "save as" a TIFF file when I'm finished my edits, the check box for ICC Profle is checked and some sRGB file is being embedded. Is this a good idea? Do I need to uncheck this box every time I save, or can I set my preference to not embed a profile? I've looked mightily but can't find any help on this.
Thanks.
www.pbase.com/reimar
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2004, 02:57 PM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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I can't give you a definitive answer but I can say that for my money, I want a color profile attached to every image. You don't necessarily have to use it but you may need a reference model describing color as the camera captured it, at least with your originals. As for which model to use, I would go with Adobe RGB 1998 or the D70 native profile instead of sRGB. Adobe RGB is a general purpose, wide gamut color model which translates well. Just about everybody doing digital imaging has it installed as an available color space so you can send files to someone else without losing the color reference. sRGB is also widely used because it is a standard internet color space but... because of that, it's gamut (range of color) is not as wide; you'll lose deep saturation in greens and blues amoung others. You can always save your original and convert a copy from Adobe RGB to sRGB if you want.
I don't have PE and don't know about it's color managemrnt but if you can, set your working space to 'Adobe RGB 1998' and have it prompt you when there is a color space mismatch. That gives you the chance to discard the color profile if you don't want it or convert if it's not Adobe RGB. It also helps to avoid weird color imbalances when you cut and paste between images or make composites.
I'm guessing the D70 will allow you to choose the color space it records, pick Adobe RGB 1998 or something like 'D70 RGB'.
Lastly, shoot RAW files instead of JPEGs or TIFFs if you plan to do any processing after you shoot. It's more of a hassle but gives you a lot more flexibilty in terms of exposure compensation and color balance... Nikon has a good sharpening tool too (in Nikon View).
Regards,
Chip
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:44 AM
Reimar Reimar is offline
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Thanks Chip.
I had gotten very comfortable working with sRGB CP4500 files in PE1 using "no color management" as Richard suggests. The D70 opens that color management can of worms again.

My original files (NEF or JPG) contain the shooting and ICC profile information. The RAW NEF files are value added only when processed using Nikon Capture at additional cost. Nikon View just converts NEF to JPG as the camera would have done.

I see what you're saying: if I'm in "no color management" then an embedded profile will be ignored by PE2 anyway. But won't I get into trouble when sending the finished files with an embedded ICC profile to printers like the Noritsu? I do most of my printing at home anyway.

I would like to work in Adobe RGB for wider gamut printing. I haven't been able to since I also want colors not to change when putting images on the web. As far as I know, PE2 does not allow for color-space conversions.

I wish there was a simple "how-to" on processing Adobe RGB images to get the most out of them and still produce consistent color output across different platforms.

Reimar
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:23 PM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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PE2 unlike PE1 respects the EXIF colour space info - it may be that this is the problem here. If you install Adobe's Ignore Exif utility (for Windows) or Ignore Exif plugin (for macs) (Available for download somewhere on the Adobe site under the Photoshop downloads - they work fine for Elements) you may find that your images revert to being untagged. The other possibility is that whatever you are using to download your images onto your computer is tagging them according to the EXIF info - the default settings in the macs Image capture does this for example.

Susan S.
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  #5  
Old 05-05-2004, 09:10 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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As I believe I say elsewhere and hopefully most readers understand: using profiles is not a silver bullet for getting good color. You have to know why you are using them and exactly what you are profiling. Adobe RGB isn't 'better' for everything. It isn't even better for most things. I worked with Photoshop for many years before there was profiling at all, and there was still a way to get reliable results. In fact, I'd say that form was MORE reliable because there was no guessing (as there wouldn't be with proper profiling use).

The real answer here has to do with what the original space is, and what the output is. If you are looking at a monitor and expecting to match those results and you are creating web pages, embedding a profile is pretty useless. If you are printing to CMYK, taging the file accurately MIGHT be helpful IF you are sending an RGB file. Personally i'd make my own separation so there is no guessing. There is not a fine difference between understanding your images and output and hoping a profile will do it for you. There is a fine difference between that knowledge and deciding how to control the result.

Don't guess, know. Don't just chose a profile, use them.

" I would like to work in Adobe RGB for wider gamut printing."

Wider gamut is a little bit of a scam. there are still the same number of colors in sRGB and Adobe RGB. the idea that they are mapped differently doesn't make it an advantage. It SOUNDS good (wider gamut), because it makes you feel like there is more to get. Functionally you need something more capable than your monitor to show the difference, and something better than CMYK to print what you see. Good luck. As bland as sRGB is, it is a good, visual compromise to working in an environment where what you see is what you get.

Last edited by Richard_Lynch; 05-05-2004 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:48 PM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimar
Thanks Chip.
I had gotten very comfortable working with sRGB CP4500 files in PE1 using "no color management" as Richard suggests. The D70 opens that color management can of worms again.
Yeah, but ain't it nice having that D70!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimar
My original files (NEF or JPG) contain the shooting and ICC profile information. The RAW NEF files are value added only when processed using Nikon Capture at additional cost. Nikon View just converts NEF to JPG as the camera would have done.
With Nikon View 6 you can right click a RAW file and select 'Edit'. The Nikon Editor allows you to do the value added stuff and save as a TIF or JPEG. It's a hassle though because there's no batch capability. It was a pricey investment but I got Phase One's 'Capture One DSLR' software. It's a RAW file workflow package; makes RAW files much easier to manage and manipulate. There's a 30 day trial here... http://www.phaseone.com/content/down...aptureone.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimar
I see what you're saying: if I'm in "no color management" then an embedded profile will be ignored by PE2 anyway. But won't I get into trouble when sending the finished files with an embedded ICC profile to printers like the Noritsu? I do most of my printing at home anyway.
Most digital color printers allow the operator to select if and where the ICC color management will happen, either in the software or the printing device. The default is typically some sort of non-ICC system proprietary to the device. In that case the profile gets ignored. If however ICC management is on and you have an embedded profile, the driver may try to apply a profile in addition to the output profile the application software applied. If the application, like Photoshop, is managing color, you have to tell the print driver not to manage color. I got into trouble with double profiling when I was just getting into digital printing by using a watercolor paper profile in photoshop to soft proof... so ICC management was on in Photoshop, then I would print and tell the print driver I wanted to use ICC management and to use the same watercolor paper profile. IT DON"T WORK, LET ME TELL YA. If you use a paper profile, either have your software manage it OR the print driver, but not both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimar
I would like to work in Adobe RGB for wider gamut printing. I haven't been able to since I also want colors not to change when putting images on the web. As far as I know, PE2 does not allow for color-space conversions.
Bummer on that, I don't have PE2 installed. There may be ther ways to convert but that just adds more work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimar
I wish there was a simple "how-to" on processing Adobe RGB images to get the most out of them and still produce consistent color output across different platforms.
I've had pretty good luck printing Adobe RGB tagged files to printers with all color management turned off. That's what we do when we have to go from Quark to EPS to TIF for large prints. We leave color management off in Quark where we create a layout at say 25% actual size... mainly because I can't figure Quark color management out. Then we save the page as an EPS, still no profile. Then we open it in PS7, rasterize it at 1200dpi, resize it and assign it Adobe RGB ('assign', not 'convert to'). Then we send it out to print on an Epson 10000 printer using the driver's built color controls, that is, no ICC management). The results pretty much match a print from Quark proper. If we don't assign the Adobe RGB profile we don't get a match... go figure.
To me, the Adobe RGB Profile is a general purpose reference space. I'm not very web savvy and I've not done any serious imaging for the web. I don't know how Adobe RGB displays across browser platforms. I guess I will convert to sRGB when I do. I hope someone nice gives you Photoshop 7 or CS for your next birthday. I think CS has really good RAW file support built in, I'm still using 7 though.

Chip
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  #7  
Old 05-05-2004, 10:18 PM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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FWIW I work in sRGB (by using the limited colour management settings on Elements) but generally don't bother to attach a prfile. This way my images look pretty much the same as in camera (maybe some slight intensification of the reds - but my camera colour space seems to be closer to sRGB than anything else) on the web, on my low end inkjet and printed out using commercial (consumer level) film processors, many of whom prefer sRGB - assuming that they know anything about colour profiles that is! I've heard that some of the high end printers (Epson 2200 I think) do better with Adobe RGB than sRGB. But I don't have one so I'm not at this stage worried about it.
(this is a change from my earlier practice - i was working with colour management off, but I found that I get more consistent results in sRGB YMMV!)
Susan S.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:46 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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I must say it is interesting to me...I have this forum...and I see that no one ever responds to my posts. It leaves me wondering if I have responded at all, or if even if people don't believe me so they choose to respond to someone else rather than be put on the block.

my guess is, 98% of people using profiles don't have the slightest clue as to how to use them correctly. The other 2% use them because they are either a) supposed to, or b) they got good results one time that they didn't duplicate with sRGB.

Guessing doesn't do it, and neither does suggestion. sRGB is mostly what you see, and that means you control the result. getting better results with Adobe RGB--whose difference may be approximated, but perhaps not accurate -- could mean you are guessing at what you want to get, and it seemed to get ou better results in a single comparison.

I wouldn't bet the farm on a guess -- or a single comparison. There are choices for a reason, and you either use them, or you fake like you know what you are doing.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:50 PM
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Richard_Lynch Richard_Lynch is offline
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PS -- "I've not done any serious imaging for the web. I don't know how Adobe RGB displays across browser platforms. I guess I will convert to sRGB when I do. "

yes, that happens. and, well, the result leaves the images flat and sorry. Adobe RGB is like loading a film canister in a black bag: you can do it, but you don't have to anymore. If you do, it may be nostalgic, but I doubt it is really better.
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:17 AM
Susan S. Susan S. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Lynch
I must say it is interesting to me...I have this forum...and I see that no one ever responds to my posts. It leaves me wondering if I have responded at all, or if even if people don't believe me so they choose to respond to someone else rather than be put on the block.
I read your posts Richard! (and no one ever seems to respond to mine either! I think my first post actually answered the original question properly!...). I don't use profiles because I don't understand them fully - and I don't understand colour management sufficiently well to make a correct judgement as to whether they can provide any advantage, and in what circumstances they are likely to help. And as Elements isn't set up to deal with advanced colour mangement using profiles properly I haven't invested the time into understanding it. The only times I have attached an (sRGB) profile was when someone asked me to - and as I had worked in sRGB it didn't seem likely to be a harmful thing to do.

Richard - in your last post you said re converting from Adobe RGB to sRGB:
"yes, that happens. and, well, the result leaves the images flat and sorry. Adobe RGB is like loading a film canister in a black bag: you can do it, but you don't have to anymore. If you do, it may be nostalgic, but I doubt it is really better"

Do you mean by that you are better off editing in the colour space of your final use than trying to convert an edited image from one colour space to another ex post? ie if you want to use sRGB start off editing there; or is it a general disapproval of AdobeRGB? This isn't an issue for me right now as my camera uses sRGB or close to it - but I'm hoping for a digital SLR in the future and some of these higher end cameras allows choice of colour space including Adobe RGB and sRGB and wondering what the better choices are (in your opinion).
Susan S
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