Help me to date some photos?

[Caitlin]

I have just gained access to an old cigar box that contained the few letters and scant photos kept by my grandfather, who died 30 years ago.

The box contains some mysteries - most of which can probably never be answered. He was a reticent man, who never spoke of his past, or the reasons he left his home as a young man and changed his identity, moving to Australia, presumed dead by his family.

Because his past was something of a mystery, and his wife died when my mother was still very young, my mother is unable to identify any of the photos in the box. I am trying to make some educated guesses on who some of the people may be, based on the little I do know of his family.

I suspect the couple may be his wife's mother and an unidentified man (brother, husband?), and the other woman his wife's grandmother, but I suspect that the boat full of young men may be friends or brothers of his. Given that almost all the photos in the box are of his wife's family, this may be wishful thinking on my part, and he may not have kept any photos from his past.

If anyone was able to make some educated guesses on the age of these photos it could help a great deal in identifying who the people are.

Thank you.

[Kraellin]

caitlin,

you might want to check out this thread http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/history-conservation-repair/10922-very-old-photograph.html or pm marylynn to get her to look at this. she helped me with mine. there may well be other threads in that forum that could help too.

also, post a description of what these photos reside on, the type of paper, thickness, sizes and any markings you might find on the front or back. the more information, the better.

just as a quick guess and a very limited knowledge of all this, i'd say your first one is 1920'ish, based on clothing and that vase on the table. but, it could be a bit earlier. not sure.

the 2nd looks to be earlier, maybe even before the turn of the century, but not much before. the clothing looks victorian to me, but that might just be a remnant of that style and i'm certainly no expert. but i'd guess around 1900 to 1915 or so.

the last one, the gentlemen in the boat, i'd say is the most recent, but still pre-depression. so, maybe also in the '20s, but a bit later than the first one.

but, like i said, i'm no expert, and barely even an amateur on dating these things. i'm mostly just taking guesses to see how close i might be when someone else more qualified comes along

but, i do know that the more data you can provide, the better.

Craig

[MargaretM]

Fascinating stuff. Here is a good link that uses clothing to date - http://www.familychronicle.com/phototip.htm
Good luck! Margaret

[Caitlin]

A little bit of extra information:

The photo of the couple has a stamp on the back reading 'The Ulster Studio, 25 Royal Ave', is printed on light cardboard, and has a postcard layout printed on the back. The photo of the lady is also is printed as a postcard on light cardboard, with a stamp reading Megahny & Johnston, 88 Bridge st Belfast, and handwritten '1868' (doesn't seem right?) The picture of the young men is curled photo paper, very yellowed and damaged, with no markings. (The Glasgow and Belfast marks makes me believe they are relatives of my grandmother, as my grandfather was from England, and my grandmother's parents were from Scotland, emigrants from Ireland.)

Thanks for the help so far Craig & Margaret. Your guesses certainly match mine Craig, and would match my personal theories.

[Gary Richardson]

Caitlin,

The Irish Potato Famine was in 1846-1850 (approx), and a great many Irish families emigrated around that time, so perhaps the date of the photo at 1868 is not so far wrong.

Obviously the clothes will give a good indication, as long as you are researching what was in fashion in Glasgow and Belfast, and not elsewhere.

[Flora]

You could also ask deadants .... here is a link to the RootsChat site he is a member of ....

[Kraellin]

the cardboard dates this fairly well, if i'm not mistaken. and whereas i dont know the exact dates, i'd say 1910 to 1930 as a guess, but might be a tad later up to 1940 or so...not sure.

but, if someone did to these like one of my mother's, the photos could be photos of photos and your cardboard ones could just be reprints. one of her tintypes was copied over onto a cabinet card. the original tintype we placed around 1870 to 1880 or so, but the cabinet card would have been much later and it was the exact same photo.

and the one of the young men on curled photo paper, makes me think later than my original guess. could very well be post-depression, but likely not post-wwii, though not impossible.

hehe, better find someone that knows this stuff better than me. i'm all guesses and little facts

still, shld be fun hearing what deadants, as flora suggested, or marylynn or others might put them.

Craig

[Kraellin]

just a couple of comments about the men and boat picture... the boat is not in water. it is propped up. at first i thought maybe it was even up on a trailer of some sort with wheels and a back axle, but that's inconclusive. however, under the right settings of adjustments, you can see that the middle part is propped up with some sort of frame, maybe a sawhorse or makeshift wooden props. i also believe i can make out a stone at the bottom middle of the picture near where one prop would extend down to the ground.

i also tried to make out the writing on the building, but couldnt get it. too blurred.

Craig

[Caitlin]

I was hoping the men's floppy hair cuts could be a hint of the age of the boat photo, but to be honest even if I work out when I still probably won't know who! Though if it turns out to be 1910-15 (Which is what I am hoping) it could be my grandfather with his brothers, or friends.

So the photos printed as postcards are called cabinet cards?

[Kraellin]

caitlin,

my understanding of a cabinet card is based on some photos i have here which other folks called these cabinet cards based on my description of them. they are roughly 4 x 6 or 5 x 7 inches, and they are not printed on paper or cardboard precisely, but a sort of thick, stiff pressed paper or cardboard. i'm not sure which. it's almost an eighth of an inch thick, though. they often have a studio mark on them. mine are in red also. and mine have no borders or frames to speak of. if that's what a cabinet card is, and that's what you've got, then sounds like it is a cabinet card.

and yes, the hairstyles would be pertinent to dating the photo. i just am not informed enough to say what is when. where also might be important in that regard. do you know where these were taken?

Craig

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

and yes, the hairstyles would be pertinent to dating the photo. i just am not informed enough to say what is when. where also might be important in that regard. do you know where these were taken?

Craig

No Craig - I'm afarid I know nothing about this photo at all, otther than that it was in the box, and has obviously been tacked up on a wall at sometime given the holes in the top. I will see if I can make an enlargement of the shopfront sign in case I can make something out.

[Kraellin]

caitlin,

ok.

i think it's time for the history/geneaology buffs to take over

Craig

[Caitlin]

Well, in case you have any more luck than me here is a close up of the shopfront - I think it is just a business name so not much help. Also I've attached a scan of the back of one of the 'postcards'. They are both quite similar looking, though the single lady does have a rough white edge. They are on relatively thin cardboard - basically just like postcards.

[deadants]

Hi Caitlin,
here is the link to the rootschat site. There is a whole bunch of links to other sites that will give you a rough idea of the age of your photos. You may also like to post a question for the experts there who know all about dating photos.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...html#msg296211

[Jaime]

Caitlin,

It appears you have some real photo postcards. Collectors of this type of photos usual date the postcard by inspecting the information printed on the back as these changes from time to time due to different mail regulations. As a rule, undivided back postcards are prior to 1907. Anyway, you can find some help for dating postcards in these links:

Dating real photo postcards

20th Century Photos - 1911 to 1920

Tips for determining when a U.S. postcard was published

[Kraellin]

well, the main part of the sign says 'GIRVIN', as best i can read it. there is a girvin texas...or was. it's now a ghost town, sort of. maybe a few residents yet.

from a web site:

Ranchers and stock raisers came to the area in the 1890s, later to be called Girvin after the name of one of the ranchers. It was the railroad that built through in 1911 that started Girvin on its way to becoming a town of some importance. The railroad built a passenger and freight station and soon other businesses were established including a general store, a hotel, a saloon and a lumberyard. Girvin also was a shipping point for thousands of cattle for a number of years. The economy of Girvin was steadily growing when in 1933 a new highway was built to connect Fort Stockton with McCamey that passed one mile south of Girvin. Some residents had already departed the town to seek employment elsewhere. The new highway provided additional business opportunities, which negatively affected the Girvin economy. The 1940 census showed only seventy-five residents left in the town. The Santa Fe Railway closed the freight depot in 1944 and the passenger station in 1955. Girvin is now a town of abandoned buildings. The brick schoolhouse is maintained as a community center and polling place for the several residents that remain. SUBMITTED BY: Henry Chenoweth

There are 3 registered residents.One is the love of all mildred helmers.she has ran the social club since 1956.the helmers family started living in girvin since 1956. with their 4 childred mildred ran the post office and store and gas station. the social club still has it doors open was opened in 1957. you ask any one do they know where girvin is .the reply is yes and where is mildred . REMAINS: the pringle :mildred helmers SHORT BIOGRAPHY: there have been many people come through and stop. from all over the world and there marks are left on the raffler. girvin was put in the national geographic. Submitted by: John helmers

you also might want to check the site i got this quote from.... there is an original building of Girvin, Tx. still standing there that gave me a start when i first saw it. i've also found a link between some scottish girvins and australian girvins.

it was common for small towns to have the town name on any old building, particularly a common one like a general store.

ok, i dont know why i'm going on about girvins here. does this ring any bells in the family tree?

oh, and here are those sites: http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/tx/girvin.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/4081/gircorr.html

it's prolly just a wild goose chase, the girvin thing, but a small chance something could come of it.

oh, there is also a Girvin, Scotland... Girvin
South Ayrshire, Scotland
United Kingdom

Craig

edit:

What does the Girvin name mean?
Last Name: Girvin
Scottish and northern Irish: variant spelling of Girvan.

[MaryLynn]

Caitlin,

What wonderful photos! I've looked for some examples of the women's clothing and can only make guesses at this point because most of my reference sources don't go beyond 1900.

I am guessing that the card of the man & woman may be around 1930 based on the woman's hairstyle and the more modern flair of the collar and buttons on her dress. Someone with more knowledge of furniture and decorating may be able to date the table and vase.

The card of the woman in the middle I am guessing to be 1915-1920. Her hair is "larger" than the sleeker styles of the earlier decades and not as stylish as the 1920s. Her dress does not have the high collar of 1900-1910 but a round neckline which became more prevelant toward 1920. The pleating on the front of her dress and the beaded trim are also typical.

The young men in the boat may be from the early 1920s. I have a few pictures of young men in that era and some have the fuller hair. Of course, the young men could have just needed a trip to the barber shop, too.

Since you have photographers and addresses for the two postcards, may I suggest you go to this site http://www.antrimhistory.net/forum/index.php and see if you can get further information on either or both of them. Some one at that forum may have access to business records or city directories and be able to give you a date range.

Thank you for posting these photos and Jaime, thank you for the links to the postcard history. I've been looking for more information such as that.

MaryLynn

[Caitlin]

Great researching Craig! I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there were no American immigrants in my family tree - so it sounds like the Irish or Scottish Girvan might be the go. Which is a little disappointing, as it again seems to point to this also being a photo on my grandmother's side. It seems like my grandfather really did leave every trace of his previous life behind him.

[Caitlin]

MaryLynn, we cross posted! Thanks for that link.... It looks like I have a lot of reading to do!

[Kraellin]

you're welcome.

bear in mind that just because the sign says 'Girvin' doesnt mean that anyone in the photo has that name. i just wanted to see what i could find on the name on the sign to see if that would locate the area this photo was taken in.

Craig

[pjanak]

I'd guess:
1. 1920's
2. pre 1900
3 1920's

[ogee]

Originally Posted by Caitlin

I was hoping the men's floppy hair cuts could be a hint of the age of the boat photo, but to be honest even if I work out when I still probably won't know who! Though if it turns out to be 1910-15 (Which is what I am hoping) it could be my grandfather with his brothers, or friends.

So the photos printed as postcards are called cabinet cards?

I googles cabinet cards and here is the first link...I'm sure there are a lot more...
http://www.city-gallery.com/learning...card/index.php

[ogee]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

caitlin,

ok.

i think it's time for the history/geneaology buffs to take over

Craig

You maybe able to find a list of Photographer's Studios for Ireland (Belfast etc.) if you are sure that is where the photos came from or from whatever place your relative lived. I'd start with google...and also check local photographic societies for possible sources of such info...if you can establish where they were taken it is even more important than exactly when...and where may give you a better idea of when.
Just thought of another possible source of info...old business directories...some are on-line on various genealogical/history sites...try rootsweb.com and go to Ireland...or google it...once you find one source others should show up.

[Janet Petty]

This may or may not help you date the photos but this site: http://www.familysearch.org/ has the largest genealogy database in the world. If you know names, you can often find links that will help you identify others in the family tree. If it were up to me, I'd begin with your grandfather's name, date of birth, etc. You might find a real treasure trove of answers.

Janet

[Steve Conway]

Not an expert, but I do genealogy of my family as a hobby.

I agree with Craig that they are probably between 1900 and 1930. The last one being the newest. Notice none of the men in that pic have facial hair which was very popular at the turn of the century and some years after.

The postcard may be a good source to get some dates. There is a name of a company on it. If you can find out when that company was in business, it should help a good bit with dates.

This is fascinating stuff.

Steve

Originally Posted by Caitlin

Well, in case you have any more luck than me here is a close up of the shopfront - I think it is just a business name so not much help. Also I've attached a scan of the back of one of the 'postcards'. They are both quite similar looking, though the single lady does have a rough white edge. They are on relatively thin cardboard - basically just like postcards.