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Help! Black Fadeout Problem!

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  #11  
Old 07-05-2006, 01:52 PM
willster98's Avatar
willster98 willster98 is offline
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Psd

I have a link to the PSD file on my website. The original photoshop file is scanned in at 600dpi and is around 50 megs:

Original PSD file
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  #12  
Old 07-29-2006, 09:41 PM
danko danko is offline
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Smile More thoughts and questions about an important problem.

Hi everyone. I hope you'll be willing to continue on this topic since I think it's a common and important one. It's one that I've attempted to work on a few times on a few photos over the years as my Photoshop skills have gradually developed. I have a number of photos with this same problem (and more detail hidden in the involved areas) and have tried several approaches to solve it. It seems the best would be a specially made scanner with polarized light and polarized glass, but since that technology is not available to me yet, Iíve tried a few other things. One is photographing the photo with an angled light source. Two major problems with this, low resolution and nonuniform lighting. So back to the scanner. It seems that with as prevalent a problem as this is, someone could make a Photoshop plugin tool to address it specifically. Since these are black and white photos and the silver reflection comes out fairly blue, working with colors as target problem areas seems to be the best way to approach it. Iíve fiddled with Hue/Saturation and tried to darken the blues and greens. For some reason I canít get them quite dark enough by this method. The second method Iíve tried is selecting the cyan, blue, and green color ranges, (using a fully saturated adjustment layer to better see what Iím selecting) and then painting the selections dark or black. This works fairly well, but still misses some of the hues despite several attempts at using the eyedropper and widening the latitude of selected color. Iím getting close, but being a perfectionist I think there ought to be a better, more refined way that addresses perhaps that the blues should be treated differently than the greens. Or maybe Iím on the right track but just need to fiddle with the settings more to solve the Hue/Sat technique not getting dark enough or maybe the color range selection technique not selecting just the right amount of pixels. The four attachments are of a representative portion of one photo, first the original with silvering, then a fully saturated version to show the problem areas, then two attempts to fix the problem using (a) Hue/Sat and (b) darkening selected color ranges. The Hue/Sat one still has areas that are too light. The color selection one I think is better but has pixels that are not evenly transitioning with nearby ones still too light. Maybe I should combine both and choose the best parts of each, but it seems there should be a better way. Any enlightening thoughts? Or should we say "endarkening?"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SP_1_silver.jpg (97.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg SP_2_sat_view.jpg (95.4 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg SP_3a_by hue-sat.jpg (98.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg SP_3b_by color select.jpg (97.8 KB, 22 views)
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  #13  
Old 07-30-2006, 02:37 AM
duwayne duwayne is offline
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I downloaded the high-resolution version from willster98ís web site. I donít really understand all the technicalities of what I did but it seems to have worked.

Duplicate background layer

IMAGE -> ADJUSTMENT -> LEVELS, select blue channel, white-point slider to 190, mid tone slider to 150. Select red channel, black-point slider to 30.

SELECT-> COLOR RANGE, sampled the blue and set fuzziness to 200

LAYER -> NEW -> VIA COPY, blending mode -> color burn

Delete the background copy layer

Turned it on and off, everything else is the same. Only the silver is gone.


WILLSTER98 Ė can you try this to see if you get the same results
Attached Images
File Type: jpg untouchedfamily-1.jpg (80.6 KB, 25 views)
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  #14  
Old 07-30-2006, 05:26 AM
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Flora Flora is offline
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Hi danko,

welcome to RP!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
Since these are black and white photos and the silver reflection comes out fairly blue,
... Right, but more than black & white, these old pictures tend to become 'sepia' ... I'm no expert on this, but, apparently, the emulsion used in the past seems to deteriorate in such a way that the blue channel is the most damaged ... If the blue channel is damaged, the lighter spots in it will tend to look blue in your composite view... (If you desaturate your picture completely, you'll notice that the 'silvery blue' simply turns into a lighter shade of grey ... thus making restoration easier since you'd only have to darken the lighter discolorations without having to worry about colour... )

... But, if like me, you'd rather work with the original tint,
Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
working with colors as target problem areas seems to be the best way to approach it.
that's a very good way to start... (if you read my previous post on this Thread, you see that's what I did as well...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
Iíve fiddled with Hue/Saturation and tried to darken the blues and greens. For some reason I canít get them quite dark enough by this method.
... same here ... ... (I always say that each image has a life and a mind of its own ... ) ... Here is where we went different ways .... Beside the silvering, ( Help! Black Fadeout Problem!), your picture has exposure problems as well ... so ... instead of going for a Color Range Selection, I opted for a Selective Colors Adjustment Layers first ... This because I wanted to have the possibility to decrease the 'black' in the shadows to uncover details while starting to correct the silvering ...

My Selective Colors settings in Attachments 1 & 2

After this, the image was better balanced but still had a lighter bluish cast... that's when I used a Hue/Saturation A.L. where I decreased to -100 the Lightness in Greens, Cyans and Blues...

My results After Selective Colors only and after Hue/saturation in Attachment 3

A selective Levels A.L. took care of the fading in the top half of the image ... Attachment 4 ....

... I, then, would start the 'real' restoration at this point ...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SNAP-096.jpg (73.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg SNAP-097.jpg (94.2 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg SNAP-098.jpg (94.7 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg SNAP-099.jpg (41.3 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by Flora; 07-30-2006 at 06:01 AM.
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  #15  
Old 07-31-2006, 11:18 AM
danko danko is offline
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Thanks Flora.

Regarding working with original tint vs black and white, I think itís critical to keep the color at first (and helpful to look at it through a fully saturated adjustment layer) because it lets you see which areas are lightened by the silvering. If you get rid of the color, then you have to guess which areas look light because they are supposed to vs which areas look that way because of silvering.

Iíll have to learn more about the adjustments you use in Selective Color options. They do seem to help with the exposure levels. When should you use relative vs absolute? My initial plan was to leave the exposure levels for a later step after the silver corrections were all accounted for. Any advantage to doing it with Selective Color early in the process?

I think the significant difference between using Hue/Sat vs making selections and masks from a color range is that with Hue/Sat I canít get the affected pixels darkened enough. I think thatís because within a silverized pixel, all the color range is represented within it and if we fully darken the blues, cyans, and greens, only some of the components contributing to the pixelís luminosity are darkened. This results in a dark gray instead of bringing back the original presumably darker tone. On the other hand, if we go with selecting a color range and then painting, then it affects more than just the fraction proportional to the blue, cyan, and green content. This is more complete, but may overdo it. The hard parts are getting the right color range selection and the right degree of darkening. Maybe even a couple separate selections for blues vs cyans vs greens and darkening them each to different degrees would give finer control over the correction.

Going back to the Hue/Sat method which seems like it ought to be the most refined method, thereís probably a way to amplify the effect of the darkening. I donít know enough Photoshop yet, but what about making a subtraction or differential image layer that is basically the Hue/Sat adjusted minus the original, then duplicating, darkening, or burning based on that differential layer?
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  #16  
Old 08-03-2006, 04:25 AM
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Flora Flora is offline
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You are welcome, Danko!

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
Regarding working with original tint vs black and white, I think itís critical to keep the color at first (and helpful to look at it through a fully saturated adjustment layer) because it lets you see which areas are lightened by the silvering.
... and exactly which colour/colours should be corrected or eliminated ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
If you get rid of the color, then you have to guess which areas look light because they are supposed to vs which areas look that way because of silvering.
... not, if you always keep a copy of your original open for constant comparison ...As for the other lighter areas not included in the 'silvering', they might be due to fading caused by different reasons ... I think that, in most cases, it's not too difficult to see which 'light areas' are supposed to be there and which not, even in absence of colour...

With old 'sepia' images, working with the original tint is a personal choice ... (which I prefer as well...) but, in most cases, you'll see that the tendency is to remove the colour, restore the image in greyscale and add a sepia tone at the end ... This method has the big advantages of speeding up PS operations and decreasing the 'working file' size ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
Iíll have to learn more about the adjustments you use in Selective Color options. They do seem to help with the exposure levels. When should you use relative vs absolute?
...like for most procedures in PS, it is seldom a matter of 'should', but of personal taste and desired final result ... Personally I go for 'Relative' most of the times since its changes are more subtle (it "changes the existing amount of cyan, magenta, yellow, or black by its percentage of the total. For example, if you start with a pixel that is 50% magenta and add 10%, 5% is added to the magenta (10% of 50% = 5%) for a total of 55% magenta.") ... One of the disadvantages of the 'Relative' vs 'Absolute' Method is that "the Relative Method cannot adjust pure specular white, which contains no color components." ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
My initial plan was to leave the exposure levels for a later step after the silver corrections were all accounted for. Any advantage to doing it with Selective Color early in the process?
.... Again a matter of personal choice ... (I start sounding like a broken record ... ) .. There are a couple of things that distract/bother me more than others: crooked images, and not being able to see what details (if any at all) I have to work on... so, when necessary, straightening the image and correcting the exposure in search of hidden goodies, are the first steps I take...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
I think the significant difference between using Hue/Sat vs making selections and masks from a color range is that with Hue/Sat I canít get the affected pixels darkened enough. I think thatís because within a silverized pixel, all the color range is represented within it and if we fully darken the blues, cyans, and greens, only some of the components contributing to the pixelís luminosity are darkened. This results in a dark gray instead of bringing back the original presumably darker tone.
The 'Lightness' Option in Hue/Saturation doesn't increase or decrease the Saturation ... all it does is the following:

increase the lightness = add white to a color
decrease the lightness = add black to a color

... that's why the colours affected tend to turn grey ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
On the other hand, if we go with selecting a color range and then painting, then it affects more than just the fraction proportional to the blue, cyan, and green content. This is more complete, but may overdo it. The hard parts are getting the right color range selection and the right degree of darkening. Maybe even a couple separate selections for blues vs cyans vs greens and darkening them each to different degrees would give finer control over the correction.
... Well, in my opinion, any particular colour (or not) Adjustment can only go so far .... if it solves a good part of the problem, it has done its job! ... If the range of the problem is wider than expected, well, then, I try other Adjustments which can offer different options than the one used so far ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
Going back to the Hue/Sat method which seems like it ought to be the most refined method,
... I consider Hue/Saturation a very good start for these kind of problems as it shows the exact 'problem' colours and where they are... Sometimes, a single Hue/Saturation Adjustment Layer is enough to strongly minimize the problem and, sometimes, it can completely solve the problem ... But I don't consider it the most refined one ... Channels tweaking/adjusting, Apply Image, changing to LAB or to CMYK colour Modes (just to list a few..) give much more control over colour corrections...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danko
thereís probably a way to amplify the effect of the darkening. I donít know enough Photoshop yet, but what about making a subtraction or differential image layer that is basically the Hue/Sat adjusted minus the original, then duplicating, darkening, or burning based on that differential layer?
... This is an interesting approach I haven't really looked into yet ... but, it's never too late ...

P.S. .... I'm off for a week (or so...)
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