Lighting or retouch?

[Tareq]

Hi there again,

Here are another shots of my daughter, this time i was using my beauty dish and my new beloved cameras, H3DII-39, so what do you think is missing, better lighting or better retouch?

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4404/a0000819.jpg

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/4611/a0000836.jpg

[Tareq]

Here are the original almost:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2889/a00008191.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5499/a00008361.jpg

[0lBaldy]

Lighting.. good
Photography... good
Retouch/corrections.. heavy handed and over done.. blown highlights and blocked shadows..
Do not make wholesale/blanket corrections... often you change things that do not need change, ... making un-necessary harm to the good portions of the picture..
The more experience you get with editing the more you will be making smaller very precise changes to your already nice pictures

[TommyO]

Tareq,
I would agree with OlBaldy. I would also say better lighting also. Lighting is a bit dark on the back side, a few too many shadows also. A dark gray background also makes for difficulty when you want to mask and retouch dark hair. Use a light background.

[Craig Willes]

Posing and expression.

The lighting is good enough, both the ratio and the direction, but underside of the arm is distracting in how the arms flow, and the amount of attention that it is getting when that is not the main point of interest for a portrait.

The eyes, the lips, the expression, that is what capturing a great portrait is all about.

[Tareq]

I see, Thank you very much :-)

[MrTee]

I would say the lighting isn't too bad, however must agree with the previous comment regarding the underside of the arm, but that is a problem with the pose more than anything. The retouch is a little over the top with the second image but Olbaldy has given good advice.

[Tareq]

I think i can't do good enough with children, some on another forums told me that i must have either a pro or normal model that can follow my order or buy a mannequin, both can't be afforded, so i think i should forget about learning lighting until i have pro and/or obedient people to work on, after i can pass lighting then retouching is not a big issue.

[Craig Willes]

Originally Posted by Tareq

I think i can't do good enough with children, some on another forums told me that i must have either a pro or normal model that can follow my order or buy a mannequin, both can't be afforded, so i think i should forget about learning lighting until i have pro and/or obedient people to work on, after i can pass lighting then retouching is not a big issue.

I have been doing portraits and weddings now since the 60s and I have never once hired a model, or owned a mannequin or bust.

The kids do move a good bit, and expecting them to hold a pose is not realistic, so set the lighting for the area you wish to work in, that will give you the best light for the bulk of the images you will capture.

But remember, timing to catch the expression, and using good interaction to illicit the expression with good timing to catch it.

It's all about expression with portraits, it trumps lighting 10 to 1.

And if you get a arm that is way out of place, then it's a tosser, don't worry about trying to make what should be a tosser into a gold mine it seldom works.

Good photoshop skills is something to have and develop, but there are just shots that are best not worth the effort, when you learn what to toss and what to keep, you will capture a better percentage of keepers as a result also.

[MrTee]

Like Craig, I have been doing portraits and weddings for a long time. I have three children, all of whom have modeled for me at one time or another and if I was honest they were harder than any of my paying clients. However, children are not the easiest of subjects and you can't treat them the same as adults in that they won't always do what you ask.

Craig's point about timing and interaction is probably the best advice you could have. It is interaction rather than "orders" that will win you the best result. Child portraits are better when you catch them just at the right moment rather than trying to put them into any sort of pose. Get the expression and interest right and you have a winner.

[Craig Willes]

I totally agree, photographing your own children is the hardest subject to photograph, once they have been doing it a while, they fight against you.

When real young they do just fine at first, but in time they will turn on you. (talking about as far as being good subjects to work with).

[Tareq]

hmmmmmmm
I have that expressive or emotion shots of my daughters, but to be honest the lighting was bad, there is a discussion i read somewhere talking about to have a boring model [kids, young,...] with great lighting or to have killer expression with bad lighting.

I am trying to balance between both, but the problem is i can't get all to work great, and when i post them i always get something like: oh, the shots are a bit under exposed, there is shadow under her neck, the shoulder is look awkward, the pose could be better, the hair lack details, missing fill light, the teeth need to be processed, her skin is great and no need for any retouching, why crop from bottom, crop more above her head,.....], it is like there is always something wrong or missing in my daughters shots that need correcting or to be done again.

[MrTee]

If you are looking for perfection my friend it could take the rest of your life. Lighting is of course important, whatever your subject. Expression and the right pose are also vital elements in a good portrait. Getting them all right when you are still learning is not easy. Practice, practice, practice. Until you are comfortable and proficient with the technical parts you can not concentrate on the sitter, and that is where you need to be.

When one first learns to drive it is confusing. You have to remember the steering, clutch, breaks, gears, indicators... all this whilst concentrating on what is in front of you. Only when the technical part becomes second nature and you do it without thinking, does the actual driving become easier. Patience is a virtue

My Granddaughter. one light source, speedlight. Nothing special, taken a few days ago. Get the expression and "reasonable" lighting and you will crack it. Don't over complicate things.

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by Tareq

hmmmmmm it is like there is always something wrong or missing in my daughters shots that need correcting or to be done again.

Just to expand on what MrTee said..

Perfection is very elusive (almost non-existant) and sometimes seems to only show up in the form of a Happy (calculated) Accident!

500 people will see 500 different things... it will NEVER be right except in your own eyes.. When it is the way YOU want it and it looks good to YOU... Thats all that matters... except if it is for a customer.. then it is their eyes that will decide what is right! OR if you are working under a supervisor or editor then they have the last say!

Everyone makes judgments on their own feelings, wants, desires and are subject to their own experiences and trials... which are NOT the same as another persons... what may be beautiful in one persons opinion may be hideous in anothers.

Start with a picture in your mind.. then try to emulate it in camera.. some folks take up to 300 pictures of the same thing just to get the one or two shots that come close to their concept...

Have Patience and keep practicing as you have been doing, and keep trying new things with an open mind.... eventually it will all come together and just click for you..

You have a good future in front of you.. hang in there during these confusing times.. remember all these comments are only suggestions for you to accept or not.. You can reject anything anyone says if you do not agree! After all they are YOUR Photos and you do not have to justify to anyone other than yourself.

[MrTee]

Originally Posted by 0lBaldy

You have a good future in front of you.. hang in there during these confusing times.. remember all these comments are only suggestions for you to accept or not.. You can reject anything anyone says if you do not agree! After all they are YOUR Photos and you do not have to justify to anyone other than yourself.

Absolutely......

[Tareq]

Thanks!

True, in fact i like most of my shots i did so far even many there giving me comments or critiques on them, and i agree, some also told me that i should enjoy it and be satisfies it, not just going to please others, and as long those photos are mine and i print them to look at them then i should feel disappointed much if people telling me that i need to rework on them, but who cares if i am happy with them.

Maybe my problem is that i want to have good photos overall in lighting and retouching, because i am a photographer and for sure i have to show some of my works on the net, if i never show my works then i will never come here and i will never look back on people comments or reviews, but i come here or on the net to share my works and sure people will comment about what is right and what is wrong, so in case if i will sow my works shouldn't i look at or care about comments?

The Basics or rules of lighting are almost the same, but all do their own lighting for their need or their style, so what styles i should look for then? something my own view and eye or something that are standard and known worldwide [classic, low key, Rembrandt,....]?

What i have got from other in learning lighting making me like to be staying in the studio 24 hours to try all types and positions of lighting to understand it and control it, i will not say i don't want to learn lighting, but spending long time everyday on lighting to be sure that i understand and know what i do will take me years and years here, and this will affect my normal life, so what i should do? I have all the tools and books and internet that helping me to do the best in photography, but still i am far from even someone who is advanced or semi-professional, making me to feel upset that to hear someone within 2-4 years become a professional and i still doing things without knowing where i am going to or which level i am now.

Thank you all for your comments and i will keep doing photography although i can't see what is my future in photography.

[Craig Willes]

You might want to know, as it have been said using many many words, you can never please all photographers, someone will find fault with most images, it is a rare image that does not get picked apart.

Originally Posted by Tareq

hmmmmmmm
I have that expressive or emotion shots of my daughters, but to be honest the lighting was bad, there is a discussion i read somewhere talking about to have a boring model [kids, young,...] with great lighting or to have killer expression with bad lighting.

I am trying to balance between both, but the problem is i can't get all to work great, and when i post them i always get something like: oh, the shots are a bit under exposed, there is shadow under her neck, the shoulder is look awkward, the pose could be better, the hair lack details, missing fill light, the teeth need to be processed, her skin is great and no need for any retouching, why crop from bottom, crop more above her head,.....], it is like there is always something wrong or missing in my daughters shots that need correcting or to be done again.

[Tareq]

Originally Posted by Craig Willes

You might want to know, as it have been said using many many words, you can never please all photographers, someone will find fault with most images, it is a rare image that does not get picked apart.

ok, understood.

to be honest, portraits is not my cup of tea, but because in my country it is difficult to go out [due to traffic, hot weather, humidity most of the time and lazy of work] we try to do studio stuff.

[igot2pman]

People go pro because they are not afraid to try things and they have a team to help them accomplish and catch the defects for you. Almost every video and pro I have seen has a team for set up, cleaning, review, holding reflectors, and makeup. We armatures have to do the work of 5. It’s hard to remember all the rules more or less see the wrinkles in the shirt that you wish was not there. All the D&B that takes us 14 hours could easily be solved by 30-60min of a very good makeup artist. Perfect lighting can be attained by helpers moving lights and holding reflectors.

Yes, one person can do all these things; but in all reality, having to set up and dial in can take a while by yourself. Then if you want to change your look, more time to move things and dial in again.

With time you will grow and become better.

Good luck
-Keven

[Craig Willes]

Actually I was very "anal" when it came to all the front end camera work, even back in the day when I was very busy.

There was a 20 year period that I did all the capture work, and every aspect of the set up, then handed over the film, and never saw a single image until it was displayed or used in an ad or a program or what ever the final product was.

Going digital in 2003 at a point that I was semi-retired already I started to handle all aspects from start to finish other then letting my wife still run the office and take care of pretty much all client aspects of selling and doing orders.

We cut even further back and I do 99% and she just photographs a few weddings a year, and I do 25 to 30 plus about that many portrait sessions.

But you are right most do have people do much for them and just operate the camera, that do fashion and advertising type work.

But the portrait and wedding photographers generally take on all or close to all aspects of the work by themselves.

Originally Posted by igot2pman

People go pro because they are not afraid to try things and they have a team to help them accomplish and catch the defects for you. Almost every video and pro I have seen has a team for set up, cleaning, review, holding reflectors, and makeup. We armatures have to do the work of 5. It’s hard to remember all the rules more or less see the wrinkles in the shirt that you wish was not there. All the D&B that takes us 14 hours could easily be solved by 30-60min of a very good makeup artist. Perfect lighting can be attained by helpers moving lights and holding reflectors.

Yes, one person can do all these things; but in all reality, having to set up and dial in can take a while by yourself. Then if you want to change your look, more time to move things and dial in again.

With time you will grow and become better.

Good luck
-Keven

[Tareq]

Yes, i saw that already as well, full team to work together, in fact many friends in my area even my parents told me to open a studio and bring stuff to work with me, and the most problem i suck in my work is the retouching and photoshop part, so i think maybe i should hire a retoucher who can work on all of my work and i should just focus on what i shoot and not think much about how can i edit and retouch my photos.

Thanks all!