Birds in the Snow - levels, curves, something else?

[BluebirdNut]

I'm having trouble with some photographs I've been taking of birds in the snow. I've been playing with the digital camera's settings to try to get the exposure settings optimal, but in the meantime, I've gotten some really good shots that are underexposed. I'm trying to correct the underexposure with PS 8, using different methods, but the results are not completely satisfactory to me -- I wonder if there's something I'm doing wrong.

The first example I corrected using a "curves" adjustment layer.

The second example I corrected using the "levels" tool. In order to get the bird's breast as white as it should be, I feel I'm being too heavy handed, and the photo "looks" retouched.

Could I have done better? How? Details, I need details. But simply stated, I'm somewhat of a novice with these tools.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Cher

[Janet Petty]

I had a very quick go at your two wonderful bird pics. It is great you can get that close without a glass door or such in the way. I'm jealous.

Adjusted levels using a gray point as the initial start setting and lightly adjusted the RGB after that. Added a Hue/Sat adjustment to end.

[Duv]

Nice shots Cher!

My feeling is that you have used too much contrast. On the Titmouse I originally came up with exactly the same results as Janet..but I don't think it's correct. I pulled out my birdbook and the Titmouse is suppose to have a black beak. Also, the general coloring looks muted as if it were female but I don't think it is.
What I did was open Curves. Put a marker dead centre. Then pull down the lower half slightly to get a reading in the input/output boxes of 93/74. This gives you a darker beak, some detail in the eye and better overall coloring for a male Titmouse.

For the Cardinal, the black of its mask looks fine. You want to increase brightness but retain some snow texture.
Make sure your info palette is open. Buried in the Sampler Tool Box is Color Sampler Tool. Select it. Go to Image: Adjustments: Threshold and move the slider all the way to the right. Now slowly bring it back until some white starts to show. Remember where it is. Cancel out and then click your Color Sampler Tool in that spot. Should leave a circled #1. When you hold your cursor over this spot you should get a reading of about 230. We want to raise that to about 245. Are you with me? Let me know if you not OK to here.

Go to Layer: Mode: LAB and select. In the Layers Palette click on Channels and click on the Lightness channel. Go to Layers: Adjustments: Curves and drag the upper right corner ever so slightly to the left. With your cursor take a reading of your marker. Keep adjusting until you get a reading around 245. (Note: In LAB mode, your info palette may be showing LAB values. Just click on the arrow to the right and change the flyout menu to RGB)
Click on the LAB channel to bring the image back to color. It should look a lot better. Go back to Layers: Mode: RGB.

You can forgo changing to LAB mode and make your correction in RGB. The problem is that when you use Curves or Levels in this mode, you also cause Color shifts. Working in LAB avoids this.

Janet, one small point. When you save your images could you save to a different name? ie put a J in front of it. Otherwise when I save your pic it overwrites the one by Cher.

Anyhow Cher, let me know if this works for you.

Cheers
Dave

[Janet Petty]

"Janet, one small point. When you save your images could you save to a different name? ie put a J in front of it. Otherwise when I save your pic it overwrites the one by Cher."

Really? I didn't know that at all. Thanks for telling me. From now on I'll be more careful.

Janet

[BluebirdNut]

Thanks to you both for your input! Dave, your instructions were wonderfully detailed, and I will have to try them out first thing tomorrow. I printed them for quick reference. Since I'm so new to using these tools, it's helpful to have some actual numbers and descriptive text on HOW to use them. I'll try retouching some of my less-than-perfect shots tomorrow, will let you know how I make out.

I should have lots more birds here tomorrow to practice on getting my camera's exposure settings more precise -- wind chills here in Central NY are supposed to be -15* to -35* overnight and tomorrow morning. Oh, and Janet -- there IS glass between me and those birds! I'm crazy, but not crazy enough to sit outside in weather like this in order to get those pictures!

[Neve]

In PSP8.1

With the titmouse...

Dupe bottom layer
On L2
Auto Contrast Enhancement
Bias=Lighter/Strength=Normal/Appearance=Flat
Auto Saturation Enhancement
Bias=Normal/Strength=Normal
Duped this layer
L3 - Screen 100%
Duped this layer
L4 - Overlay 28%
Merged all.

With the Cardinal and Sparrow...(had to have two goes at this one...)
Levels to Lighten slightly
Dupe this layer
L2 - Auto Saturation Enhancement
Bias=Normal/Strength=Normal
Dupe this layer
L3 - Overlay 18% - Dupe this layer
L4 - Screen 30%
Merged all
Increased Brightness 5 Contrast 7

Thanks for letting me have a go at these, I learn something each time!

[Janet Petty]

My object when doing this was to NOT blow out the snow. I guess I should have done two levels corrections with one of them masked for just the birds. I could have gotten better/truer colors that way I'm sure. I only spent about 5 minutes on the whole thing just to see if it could be done.

And Bluebird, your glass is much cleaner than mine. Mine has cat nose prints all over it.

Janet

[Duv]

[QUOTE=Janet Petty]My object when doing this was to NOT blow out the snow.

Janet, I'm not sure if you are self critiquing yourself but when I take measurements of the snow in your cardinal pic, nothing seems to be blown out and there is detail in the snow. Are you seeing something different on your monitor or something?

Cheers
Dave

[Janet Petty]

I didn't make myself clear. Everyone else got such good results for the birds but not the snow. Sorry for being blunt. I got ok for the snow but not the birds. Hows that?

Keep smilin'

Janet

[BluebirdNut]

I'm making good progress with the hints I've gotten so far. Here's another challenge - I've played with this one, but I'm not making much progress. This is rather underexposed, with a bluish cast. I'd like to know how you would go about fixing this one.

The second one doesn't really need any work - I just thought you'd like to see one that was almost perfect right out of the camera. I just did an auto contrast correction.

Janet -- I have the kitty noseprint problem, too - FOUR of them! That's a relatively easy problem for me -- a sprayer of Glass Plus and a piece of newspaper are always within reach. The bigger problem is getting all set up for the perfect shot, then having one of the little monsters jump up on the windowsill, scaring away the subject!

Cher

[Duv]

Hi Again Cher

You're absolutely correct. There's too much blue. So to change that, what would you do? Either increase Red or decrease blue, right?

With your info palette open and Sampler tool selected, move around the dark crest. Your readings will show a lower red value. As before, go to Threshold to find the darkest spot. If you assume the crest is black or nearly so, all R,G and B values should be equal. Put a marker on the crest where it's darkest. I get readings of 2/8/11. (Generally you want your darkest overall value to be about 30 but don't worry about that now.) Open Curves and go to Red Channel. In the input box put 2. In the Output box put 11. Go to Green Channel. Input 8 output 11. Your readings should now show 11 for R,G, & B. Do the same procedure for the white snow.

To keep in mind:
Color cast exists when the areas that you know or are pretty sure are black, white and/or grey values are not equal. Equalizing these values eliminates or reduces color cast.

Although we didn't do it here, generally you would change black values to the lowest number, whites to the highest number and greys to the middle number.
Often this results in blacks too black and whites too white. Try to keep blacks at an equal value around 30 and whites around 240.
Further tweaking of Curves in LAB mode, Luminosity channel with elimate the chance of color shifts.

BTW, what lens are you using?

Cheers
Dave

[BluebirdNut]

Dave, your correction turned out great. Unfortunately, I'm totally lost. I'm trying to follow your directions, but my menus seem somewhat different, and being unfamiliar with how they work, I can't translate. It's like trying to translate from German to Italian when all you speak is English. Are we using two different versions of Photoshop? I'm using CS -- 8.0 Your instructions are great, I'm sure it's either me being dense, or just a slight difference in menus. For instance, when you said in your first post "Go to Layer: Mode: LAB" -- my menu doesn't have "Mode" on the Layer menu. It's in the Image menu, but no option for Mode/LAB on the Layer menu. And when I tried using it in the Image menu, things just didn't work the way you described. And that's just where the differences start. I have a headache, and I feel queasy. I'll try again tomorrow ..... If you have the time, or the patience I'd like to learn this, but if it's too much of a pain to walk me through the baby steps, that's OK. I feel like when I used to watch Bert Monroy on The Screen Savers and I was going, "Wait! Don't go so fast! Slow down! How'd you do that again?" He never did -- slow down, that is --

Cher

[Duv]

Hi Cher!

I'll only say this once. You are not dense. It's my instructions. Sometimes when we flit thru stuff we know second hand, we miss tiny steps that make the difference between understanding and getting totally lost.
In addition, I have all the time in the world. You would probably learn a lot by picking up some good books but in the interim I'd be happy to try to help. I know I'm not the greatest communicator so feedback like this is good for me.

Let's try to simplify. First, private email me, the forum doesn't need to see all our back and forths. Second, delete everything I said about LAB mode. There's value to it, but waaaay down the line. Let's go for good images right now, not perfect images (which I don't produce anyhow).

So, forget LAB. ERASE it from your email. Where are you at and what do you need to know? Remember. I've got all the time in the world. Isn't that cool!! Click on my name and private email me back.

Cheers
Dave

[amtb]

The first of Bluebird's two bird photos gave me a surprise. I sometimes use the highlight/shadow command to get more of a "feel" for the tonal range when things aren't quite working. On this occasion, even on the default settings, the birds popped out at me. I'd like to know if the red bird's plumage really was that colour.

The snow kept its detail but took on some odd shades which I have mostly removed. I think I have managed to attach the file - hope it has a thumbnail and you can find it.

John

[amtb]

I wanted to keep texture in the snow so used Shadows/Highlights again to get it in to a tonal range where it wouldn't blow out so easily. I can't remember exactly what I did after that but it went something like this:

In LAB I made a Curves adjustment layer. I used the a and b curves to neutralise the blue cast to a large extent. On the Luminosity curve I put an anchor point on the darkest part of the snow and the lightest part of the bird (just below it) and a third on the darker feathers. I moved the anchor points on the bird so the curve between them was steeper to get a little more contrast. I wasn't bothered if the curve between the lighter feathers and snow got flattened, I didn't think there was anything important in that range. I desaturated the reds a fraction because some of the feathers looked a bit gaudy for a sparrow. And that was about it. If it was my photo I would change the background to something more interesting but that's something else again.

If you try doing it this way I hope it works. If it doesn't I may have forgaotten something. (Happens to wrinklies)

John

[BluebirdNut]

John, yes, that male cardinal is one V-E-R-Y red bird. Almost hurts the eyes to look at him! I'll go through your instructions for how you did those corrections once I've got the LAB thing down a little better. I may have inadvertently wandered into the wrong forum -- I just noticed that the name of the forum is Retouch PRO. Maybe I should look for the "Retouch PRO Wannabee" Forum! Dave, you're too kind. Look for a PM from me. (Edit: Make that THREE PM's -- A 1000 character restriction on PM's is somewhat limiting when you're trying to describe the problems I'm having!) And sorry for the repeated "read receipt" requests. I only wised up by the third one. I use so many different forums, I can't remember all the bugaboos of each one!

[cinderella]

What an interesting discussion this is. I have also taken photos of birds thru my door with very unsatisfacatory results. What kind of camara are you using? Zoom?? How close are the birds???? Neat photos with great detail and the improvements are impressive.