Different colour - photoshop and windows viewer

[Damo77]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

Oh, this is fantastic! I know I said I was out, but this is gold! Thanks for going to the trouble to prove my point!

If this were soccer, you have just scored an own goal to lose the match in extra time, my friend. Right now there's hooligans rioting in your home town

Ok, let's take a look.

You've started with an Adobe RGB image (nothing wrong with that), and posted it three times: (1) As is, with the Adobe RGB profile embedded; (2) Converted to sRGB, with the profile embedded; (3) Still Adobe RGB, but with the profile removed.

Let's discuss some scenarios of web viewing:

Scenario 1: Average person, on an average monitor, with a non-CM browser (the most common scenario)

A non-CM browser doesn't recognise profiles, so therefore doesn't know that image (1) is Adobe RGB. It displays image (1) the same as it does image (3) - that is, partially desaturated - because the RGB values are the same in both files.
The RGB values in image (2) are different, because the file has been converted to sRGB. Image (2) displays more saturated, and therefore much closer to the colours seen in Photoshop.

Score: sRGB 1, Adobe RGB 0, untagged Adobe RGB 0

Scenario 2: Average person, average monitor, using a CM-enabled browser (unlikely, but possible)

The browser recognises the Adobe RGB tag in image (1), and displays it exactly the same as the sRGB image (2). The browser assumes the untagged image is sRGB, therefore displays the muted colours as above.

Score: sRGB 1, Adobe RGB 1, untagged Adobe RGB 0

Scenario 3: CM-aware person (eg a photographer), with a correctly calibrated monitor, using a CM-enabled browser

Results exactly as Scenario 2, but with even more accurate colour rendition compared to your original file in Photoshop.

Score: sRGB 1, Adobe RGB 1, untagged Adobe RGB 0

Final score: sRGB 3, Adobe RGB 2, untagged Adobe RGB 0.

BUT this is not an accurate score, is it? Let's generously assume that one tenth of all web users have enabled colour management in their browsers (or are using Safari, which has it enabled by default). That means that the points for Scenario 1 should be: sRGB 9, Adobe RGB 0, and poor old untagged Adobe RGB still 0.

Oooh ... not looking good for the Adobe RGB team!

sRGB is clearly the best option for web images. It doesn't matter what space you edit in, as I've repeatedly said, but there is no doubt that it must be converted to sRGB for display on the web.

Let's ponder one last thought. In Photoshop CS3, Adobe introduced new functionality to its Save for web command - namely, the ability to convert to a web-suitable profile while performing the save. What profile is it? Ah, it's sRGB. There is no option for anything else, not even their very own Adobe RGB. Why? Because Adobe understand the realities of colour.

[Zetto]

wow this is/was entertaining.

I'm fairly new to color management myself, but I have to agree with Damien. sRGB is, now, without doubt the only option when it comes to web-use. Of course we have color-managed browsers coming up recently (I myself use a color-managed Firefox 3.0), but as Damien said, the majority simply doesn't care about color-management.

Additionaly I have to correct myself. Of course, your (calibrated) monitor-profile is the preferred one.

[crazyfly1]

First let me say that I am pleased that judging by first TommyO’s and now Zetto’s comments, Damien and my discussion is being perceived in the way that I believe we both intend it, as a good natured exchange.

That said I’d like to try and recap and maybe at the same time refocus on what to me, have been the major issues.
The gist of the original post was;

“In windows viewer and the internet my photos are much more saturated than Photoshop.”
“In photoshop I use sRGB as I have heard that it is better to use for internet photos therefore I don't understand why there is an issue.”

To this my suggestion was that it could be a product of saving a sRGB file with an Adobe RGB profile. Damien disagreed but did not say why. That’s OK, neither of us will ever know for sure.

The second point became the quibble about Damien’s suggestion that new Photoshop users work exclusively in sRGB.

“If you're really new to digital imaging, I and many others recommend sticking to sRGB throughout your workflow.”
“Once you're comfortable with your tools and workflow, by all means use these larger spaces.”

I completely disagree with this advice, I don’t know that I would compare it to handing a child a loaded gun the comparison Damien used when I suggested working in Adobe RGB, but I do disagree.
Damien makes the point multiple times that working in Adobe RGB somehow involves advanced color theory and hints at that it would be too difficult or complicated for a new Photoshopper.
This in my opinion is absurd. First, it is simply a matter of a silent setting in the background- set it and forget it. Until output. Now if you’re going to web, sure save in sRGB (before you get to rolling on the floor again Damien, I’ll come back to that point). Now someone tell me how that was too tough for even the most novice user?
Upside is that you didn’t destroy the color info in every picture you took this year.

I posted 5 videos all obviously for the Photoshop beginner, one from VTC and another from Lynda, both very reputable training companies both stating that the optimal working environment is Adobe RGB. If that isn’t enough look here
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/inp...libration.html
to read TommyO’s advice to a novice to work in Adobe RGB unless the majority of that persons work was creating graphics for the web.

To me telling someone to work in sRGB would be like telling a new user not to use layers. It simply wouldn’t make sense. That is the heart of the program and while being one of the most complicated parts it should probably be one of the first things a new user gets familiar with.
K, all that said I will say that these are just my opinions and Damien’s opinions respectively and (despite all the evidence from professional trainers that I offered) there really is no definitive right answer to what is the best color space for a novice to work in.
(Watch the videos )

Lastly;
“if an image is destined for the web, as Nikki's are, they definitely need to be changed to sRGB before uploading.”
I took exception to this statement with its bold face type that seems to say that horrible things will happen if you post an image with anything but an sRGB ICC profile on the web. The 3 pictures I posted prove that this is simply not true.
You are all seeing a green xmas tree, right? Noone is seeing a purple tree are you? Noone is seeing a picture of a German Sheppard, right?
Colors (mostly greens appear slightly less saturated in one colorspace than they do in the other. This is easily fixed with a little slide of the saturation bar. Now if you’re a professional and you want your editor to see your photos, guess what, their system is calibrated and color managed, right?
Now if you’re putting them up so that Aunt Sue can see the baby pictures guess what, Aunt Sues monitor is not calibrated so chances are that that little change in saturation will be the least of her problems. Right?
In the end I never said, or even came close to sounding as though I was against posting sRGB images on the web. I am against teaching a new person the wrong way to work.

Wait, I was pondering something else…
Oh and Damien, yes I love the save for web function. If my working color space is Adobe RGB (and of course it always is) then the save for web function DEFAULTS to save in Adobe RGB. If I want to save with sRGB I have to choose it from the drop menue. So as it turns out, your right, Adobe can be pretty smart. Why isn’t there an option to go from sRGB to Adobe RGB? Because (and I think at least we can agree on this) that would be stupid. Once a file has suffered the transformation to sRGB there is just no going back.
Hope that clears things up.

[Damo77]

Originally Posted by crazyfly1

First let me To this my suggestion was that it could be a product of saving a sRGB file with an Adobe RGB profile. Damien disagreed but did not say why.

I didn't understand you, and I still don't. Surely you're not suggesting that Nikki is accidentally converting or assigning Adobe RGB to her sRGB images? I can't possibly imagine how that could happen.

[crazyfly1]

Um, OK you're probably right. Thanx for the explanation.