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Different colour - photoshop and windows viewer

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  #1  
Old 03-10-2008, 05:12 AM
nikkib nikkib is offline
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Different colour - photoshop and windows viewer

In windows viewer and the internet my photos are much more saturated than Photoshop. It is very frustrating as most my photos are posted on the internet and to make them look ok on the web I have to make them look ridiculously flat and desaturated in photoshop, which is not a good way to work.

In photoshop I use sRGB as I have heard that it is better to use for internet photos therefore I don't understand why there is an issue. I notice when I change adobe gamma that it does affect the photo in windows viewer, which I didn't think it would because I heard that windows viewer etc is not color managed. I'm sure the monitor I have is not great LG Studioworks 710s and am wondering if that is an issue. Also I am using 6500 white point, gamma 2.2. I have no idea of what phosphors my monitor is so I'm using p22-ebu.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 03-10-2008, 09:46 PM
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Damo77 Damo77 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

Hi NikkiB, welcome to the forum.

Yes, this sounds very frustrating. You're certainly doing the right thing using sRGB. Your problem is not so common - usually people find that their beautiful bright colours are dying on the web, but once they change to an sRGB workflow, they're ok.

In your case, I think it has a great deal to do with your monitor. Two things come to mind:

1) Get a monitor calibrator. I can't encourage this enough. Adobe Gamma is clumsy at best. A basic calibrator (a Huey) can be purchased for about US$70, I understand. It won't guarantee your problem will be fixed, but it'll help.

2) Have you had a look at your web photos on somebody else's computer? I'd be interested to see if they look exactly like yours, or duller. If you know someone with a calibrated monitor, that would be even better.
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  #3  
Old 06-04-2008, 04:09 PM
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Zetto Zetto is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

hey nikkib,
what color profile do you use in Windows itself? Maybe the one that came with your monitor (driver)? change it to sRGB and it should work.

Control Panel > Display > Settings > Advanced > Color Management

the trick is that both the Windows and the Photoshop profile need to be the same.

greets,
Zetto

Last edited by Zetto; 07-08-2008 at 03:58 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-05-2008, 12:42 AM
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roger_ele roger_ele is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

If you use Save For Web, the little menu triangle has four choices for color output, I use the last one "Use Document Color Profile" - I had problems until I discovered this ... years ago so I don't remember the details ...
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:13 PM
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crazyfly1 crazyfly1 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

Nikkib,
The srgb color space was created to mimic the colors that most monitors would show-years and years ago. Best reccomendation I could make would be to switch your Adobe color space to Adobe RGB (1998). Did you catch that? 1998? Yup sRGB is older than that.
This may fix all your color problems. If you then want to see what your image should look like on a monitor just go under "view", check "proof colors" and then under "proof setup" look at monitor, mac, windows RGB.
BTW if you work on RAW images much you may want to check into using the Prophoto RGB color space.
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  #6  
Old 07-03-2008, 09:58 PM
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Damo77 Damo77 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

Sorry, crazyfly, you're all wrong here. I've never heard of anybody recommending Adobe RGB as a "solution" to colour problems before.

You're right, sRGB is an oldish standard now, but it's still the best standard we've got. Adobe RGB was NEVER meant to be a replacement for sRGB. And Nikki's monitor almost certainly has a much poorer gamut than the good old CRTs on which sRGB was based.

I've heard plenty of other people recommend ProPhoto RGB for working with Raws, but I think it's utter bunkum. (Personal preference, of course). I think it's very unwise to advise a junior member, who is apparently still learning the concepts of colour management, to use anything other than sRGB.

Unfortunately, seeing as we haven't seen Nikki since March, I'd say we might all be whistling into the wind anyway.
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  #7  
Old 07-04-2008, 04:28 AM
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crazyfly1 crazyfly1 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

Damien, you may be right about telling a new person to use sRGB, but I don't think so, and as you are probably right about Nikki's absence I'll say why.
I believe in teaching the correct way from the beginning and I think RGB is the right way. RGB was created to represent the colors the eye can see and not what a 20 year old mac monitor can represent.
This is not unlike the common misconception that images only need to be 75 PPI for web use.
RGB will get much closer to today’s monitors as well as most home printers. I'm not sure why we would intentionally work in a color space that will clip or "fake" colors if it's not necessary.
RGB will print better and look better on most monitors and if you are going to switch color spaces for any output it makes much more sence to downsample, not up.
The reason I thought it might solve this particular problem is because it was an instance of going from less color to more color. That could very well be a result of working in sRGB and saving in RGB by default.
This is of course, all just my opinions and not everyone will agree, however I'd be willing to bet (and give you odds) that if we made a poll we'd see more than 75% of those responding working in RGB or Prophoto.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:40 AM
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Damo77 Damo77 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

Wow.

You know, I'm a fairly untidy person, so my office gets pretty messy, and every now and again I have to have a good cleanup. Sometimes I leave it a little too long, and the mess is so bad I find myself just looking at it and thinking "Oh my God, where am I going to even begin?"

Well, I thought exactly the same thing while reading your post.

I guess I'll take it piece by piece and see if I can clear a few things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
I believe in teaching the correct way from the beginning and I think RGB is the right way.
Ok, you proved yourself ignorant right from the start. By "RGB" do you mean Adobe RGB? If so, you need to be very clear on this point.

There is, from a colour management point of view, no such thing as RGB. Telling people you use RGB is like telling people you drive a car. All you're doing is telling them that you are not a cyclist. You are giving them absolutely no information about what kind of car you drive, how big the engine is, how many passengers you can carry, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
RGB was created to represent the colors the eye can see and not what a 20 year old mac monitor can represent.
Again, are you talking about Adobe RGB? If you are, you're still wrong. LAB (or more accurately, CIE L*a*b*) was created to represent all the colours the eye can see. Adobe RGB is a small section of that, created, I believe, to roughly represent the gamut of a printing press.

I reiterate my earlier point - Nikki's monitor almost certainly has a much poorer gamut than the good old CRTs on which sRGB was based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
This is not unlike the common misconception that images only need to be 75 PPI for web use.
I agree. Web images don't need any specific resolution. They can be 12ppi or 872ppi - it makes no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
Adobe RGB will get much closer to today’s monitors as well as most home printers. I'm not sure why we would intentionally work in a color space that will clip or "fake" colors if it's not necessary.
(I've put the word Adobe in orange, because I assume that's what you mean)

Alas, not true. The very top-of-the-line Eizo monitors have a gamut that's nearing or equal to Adobe RGB, but the average monitor struggles to achieve sRGB, in my understanding. I must admit I haven't done any tests on consumer-grade monitors myself, so I'm relying on what I've read.

As for printers, I don't have any knowledge in this regard, but I am extremely doubtful that they exceed the sRGB gamut. I hope somebody with the necessary knowledge will be able to chime in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
Adobe RGB will print better and look better on most monitors
Adobe RGB images will look ok in Photoshop, but lousy anywhere else. (Which was the point of the original post, if you recall). Non-colour-managed programs either (a) assume an image is sRGB; or (b) just display the colour values however the monitor can. You were right when you advised Nikki that she could preview the latter behaviour using Photoshop's soft-proofing function, but of course, the drawback to that is that it only shows how it will look on Nikki's own monitor - not anybody else's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
and if you are going to switch color spaces for any output it makes much more sence to downsample, not up.
Agree. Care has to be taken with rendering intents and out-of-gamut colours, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
The reason I thought it might solve this particular problem is because it was an instance of going from less color to more color. That could very well be a result of working in sRGB and saving in RGB by default.
I don't think so, but I wish we could have heard a bit more from Nikki about her particular circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
This is of course, all just my opinions and not everyone will agree, however I'd be willing to bet (and give you odds) that if we made a poll we'd see more than 75% of those responding working in Adobe RGB or Prophoto.
If the poll were among professionals, then yes, I'd say you're right. There are certainly advantages to using the larger gamut spaces. (As I said previously, I personally see no advantage to ProPhoto, but that's immaterial).

However, that doesn't change the fact that if an image is destined for the web, as Nikki's are, they definitely need to be changed to sRGB before uploading.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2008, 01:18 PM
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crazyfly1 crazyfly1 is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...hoto-rgb.shtml

First, yes I’m talking about Adobe RGB 1998 when I say RGB. I had thought I could safely drop the Adobe and 1998 as it should be obvious what I’m referring to. We are after all talking about color spaces within RGB. By the way, when you say gamut you do mean color gamut right?
I’m not at all sure why you insist that Nikki’s 4 or 5 year old CRT monitor must not represent colors as well as an ancient CRT.
I’m not going to get into a conversation about pixel density with you; suffice it to say that it is more common, lately for a monitor to have the capacity to display 130 ppi x and y than it is for them to display 75ppi.
You said “Adobe RGB will look ok in Photoshop, but lousy anywhere else”
WOW and you called me ignorant.
Then you said “you were right when you advised Nikki that she could preview the latter behavior using Photoshop's soft-proofing function, but of course, the drawback to that is that it only shows how it will look on Nikki's own monitor - not anybody else's.”
No, it’s not a drawback; it’s the whole freaking point. Nikki looks at an image on her screen in Photoshop and it looks different than it does on HER screen on the web.
So you agree that taking an image from Adobe RGB to sRGB is destructive. You also agree that most professionals here probably use Adobe RGB or Prophoto RGB. Why again is it that you would recommend sRGB to anyone? Why would someone want to take a photo from a decent digital camera and scrap a large portion of the colors when they take the image into Photoshop? Why would you suggest that someone take a scan from a decent scanner and then throw away nearly half of the colors before they begin work trying to restore it?
No, an image does not neccacarilly need to be changed to sRGB before being uploaded to the web.
Again, these are my opinions. Everyone is entitled to thier opinions and it’s even OK if they’re wrong.
Enjoy your teeny tiny little color space.

Last edited by crazyfly1; 07-05-2008 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:10 PM
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TommyO TommyO is offline
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Re: Different colour - photoshop and windows viewe

And we all thought this thread was so old it would close soon... this has been exciting !

I won't post an opinion. Rather, just in case you guys are interested, there is an excellent book I read this spring that should be on everyone's shelf. It is not for novices, and does take a couple of months to get through it. But, well worth every penny (5 cent to you Damo) !

Real World Color Management (Second Edition) Industrial-Strength Production Techniques by Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting. Peachpit Press.
Here's a glimpse:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0201...e=UTF8&p=S003#

To quote Peachpit Press, "Bruce Fraser, Peachpit's dear friend and colleague, passed away December 16, 2006. The principal author of the best-selling Real World series of books about Adobe Photoshop and the definitive works Real World Color Management, Real World Camera Raw, and his recently published Real World Image Sharpening, Bruce enlightened end users and experts worldwide on the intricacies of color publishing and imaging though his many lectures, product review and magazine columns. He was the expert’s expert and collaborated with virtually every manufacturer and developer of color imaging products from the earliest days (including Adobe Systems, Inc., Apple Computer, Inc., Epson America, Inc., Hewlett-Packard Company, Microsoft Corporation, and X-Rite Inc.).

For more than 20 years Bruce wielded enormous influence in the evolution of digital color management, and became an industry legend by teaching color and effective means for its use in digital workflow. Since the early years, he played an important consulting role in the development of Adobe Photoshop, including during that programs’ earliest incarnation when it was known as BarneyScan XP. He contributed to the introduction of the very first spectrophotometer targeting the desktop world – the COLORTRON – a product that pointed the way to current instruments deemed essential to successful color reproduction from the desktop.

On December 15, the day before his passing, Bruce received the first National Association of Photoshop Professionals (NAPP) Lifetime Achievement Award. In 2005, Bruce was also recognized at Photoshop World when he was inducted into the Photoshop Hall of Fame."
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