Getting Accurate Prints: PS CS3 and Epson R800

[rnbluvva]

Hi All,

I realize there are threads on this topic, but each time I posted to one that was relevant I got a message saying the thread was old and it suggested posting a new thread, so here I am doing that.

I'm having troubles with my new Epson Stylus Photo R800 and Photoshop CS2. Everything prints dark. I've got Spyder color calibration and am NOT using Adobe gamma to color manage. When I send prints to Costco for regular photos everything is fine, so this is obviously me having to learn how to do things on my Epson.

Also of note, I just upgraded to Windows XP SP3, so I am not sure if this has anything to do with anything because I am entirely new to printing on this Epson, but I figure I'd mention it just in case.

I am actually trying to print my CD cover and tray back on an Epson Stylus Photo R800. I'm having a terrible time with the print being incredibly dark. I've tried sRGB and Adobe RGB 1998 and even CMYK mode and still they are all dark and muddy looking. The paper I am using is not an Epson paper. It is actually a paper from a company called Americal and it is High Gloss polished white paper to fit the CD jewel cases I purchased from them:
http://www.americal.com/pd/313773.html

I have downloaded the ICC profiles from Epson for the printer, but since this paper is not Epson, I'm just converting to the SPR800PrmGlossy BstPhoto.icc profile. I'm not sure if this is the right profile to use or if another would work better? The prints are all very dark and muddy. I've gone through about 20 sheets trying to get this right so far.

Things seemed to work better from the Click n'Design program I used, but unfortunately they do not have a proper template for me and the size wasn't working so I decided to print direct from Photoshop using Americal's template. Now the size is great and the prints are poopy!

I have seen some older threads with linked out stuff here and will read through it, but if anyone has any ideas that might help, I'm all ears (well eyes, really i suppose)!

Thanks so much!

Hmmm OK been fiddling more and read this thread which has helped some:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps9...s9_print_1.htm


UPDATE!
I have had a bit of a breakthrough by using Print With Preview and assigning the color profile there and making sure PS handles colors, but I'm fighting a Magenta color cast (a bad one!) in one resultant print test print. If I use a different setting I get a bit too yellow a print (my red hair shows up as brown and the skin is very desaturated) and on both there is some very weird greenish color showing up around my neck area. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm including screenshots of my settings windows in case they are helpful. I also think I need to re-calibrate, which I will do before doing any more prints.

I have also added a screenshot of my color values for the shadow area at the side of my face and under my chin. It doesn't look to me that Green is too high, but I could be wrong? Any reason why that area would print with a green cast instead of proper grey/black shadow?


Thanks!

PS i just realized i said CS3, but I'm actually using CS2

[chillin]

Did you visit this site.

[fastpics]

Looking at your screenshots it seems you're on the right track. You may want to try using perceptual as your rendering intent. You could also experiment with the different Epson glossy profiles, but change one variable at a time so you don't drive yourself nuts.

After your update, are your test prints still too dark? Or just have unwanted color casts? If it's only color casts (I suspect you may have been double profiling before,) you may want to run a nozzle check. A slightly clogged nozzle can create all kinds of color weirdness. You never know.

I'm on a mac so I don't know if there's any XP issues, (though are you sure you have the proper drivers for the printer?) but my R1800 gives me great prints except every now and then when a nozzle clogs.

Hope this helps.

ron

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by chillin

Did you visit this site.

No I did not know about that site. Are they just other profiles? I downloaded the Epson paper ones, but my issue is that this is not Epson paper. It's from Americal. Does it matter? Would I just use any glossy paper profile from there?

Thanks!

[chillin]

Originally Posted by rnbluvva

No I did not know about that site. Are they just other profiles? I downloaded the Epson paper ones, but my issue is that this is not Epson paper. It's from Americal. Does it matter? Would I just use any glossy paper profile from there?

Thanks!

I wish I could answer your questions, but I have worked with my Canon with mixed results.

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by chillin

I wish I could answer your questions, but I have worked with my Canon with mixed results.

OK well I have the Epson Glossy ICC profile and from looking at those other ones, they do not look familiar to me as far as the paper I have.

I'll keep trying!

[pixelzombie]

Originally Posted by rnbluvva

No I did not know about that site. Are they just other profiles? I downloaded the Epson paper ones, but my issue is that this is not Epson paper. It's from Americal. Does it matter? Would I just use any glossy paper profile from there?

Thanks!

yes it does matter, get some Epson glossy paper and print the same image again...

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by fastpics

Looking at your screenshots it seems you're on the right track. You may want to try using perceptual as your rendering intent. You could also experiment with the different Epson glossy profiles, but change one variable at a time so you don't drive yourself nuts.

After your update, are your test prints still too dark? Or just have unwanted color casts? If it's only color casts (I suspect you may have been double profiling before,) you may want to run a nozzle check. A slightly clogged nozzle can create all kinds of color weirdness. You never know.

I'm on a mac so I don't know if there's any XP issues, (though are you sure you have the proper drivers for the printer?) but my R1800 gives me great prints except every now and then when a nozzle clogs.

Hope this helps.

ron

Hi Ron!

Well I can't blame this on XPSP3 because I have never printed a photo on this printer before today so I have nothing to compare it to. I just read some places about XP updates and driver issues, but I went to Epson today and downloaded the latest driver, which is the same as the one I have installed already.

I am thinking this is a color profile thing. I am going to have to go through the settings and make more notes. I will try perceptual. Is there anywhere that explains the difference in those settings? I'm going a bit blind here and I'd like to do more reading if possible.

You could very well be right about double profiling though.

Just to clarify for me, I have to go Edit > Convert to Profile > Select the Epson Glossy profile > Intent: Perceptual

THEN

Print w/ Preview >
Color Handling: Let Photoshop Determine Colors
Printer Profile: Choose Epson Glossy profile (there's 2 that I have to fiddle with one is Photo Paper and the other is PremiumGlossy BestPhoto paper)
Rendering Intent: perceptual

Do I do black point compensation (what is that)?

I am going to re-calibrate my monitor as it's been about a month since I did it and then I will refresh my eyes and come back to this to try again.

Thanks!

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by pixelzombie

yes it does matter, get some Epson glossy paper and print the same image again...

Well the thing is it won't matter for my purposes if it works on Epson paper. I am printing this on this Americal paper as I've spent about $100 on it and it's for a Custom CD project I'm doing using Jewel cases purchased from them also.

There has to be a way to get it to work?

I've emailed Americal to see if they have any suggestions. Hopefully they will.

[pixelzombie]

if they don't have profiles for their paper you could pay to have one made but it'll be about $100 for such a service...

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by pixelzombie

if they don't have profiles for their paper you could pay to have one made but it'll be about $100 for such a service...

Oh that is very interesting. Where would I go to get a profile made? It might be worth it for the long run as this will be something that is ongoing.

Thanks for any info you can give me.

EDIT:
I see Dry Creek isn't doing this anymore. Know of anyone else that does it? I really have to get this paper to work.

[pixelzombie]

it turns out i found a place that could make profiles cheaper than i can:

http://www.inkjetart.com/custom_profiles/

the only downside i see is that you have to print 3 pages as opposed to the 1 page target i use...

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by pixelzombie

it turns out i found a place that could make profiles cheaper than i can:

http://www.inkjetart.com/custom_profiles/

the only downside i see is that you have to print 3 pages as opposed to the 1 page target i use...

OK well I'll have a look. You do print profiling also? I've never done this type of thing before, so it would be a good learning experience.

[pixelzombie]

yes, i do profiling...i haven't been doing it for very long mind you but i had a very good teacher...

[rnbluvva]

Originally Posted by pixelzombie

yes, i do profiling...i haven't been doing it for very long mind you but i had a very good teacher...

OK that is good to know. I may see if you are able to do it if I make no headway here on my own or have no luck with the other place.

This is a custom project I'm rolling out on my site and I may just postpone it for a while until the album proper is out. I'm getting the proper album inserts printed out of house, so I will focus on finishing up the artwork for that and then return to the land of the R800 and all it's lovely dips and peaks!

Thanks again.

[Sweetlight]

I have reposted this thread several times so for those of you who have read it already please forgive me. For those who have not, I hope it helps you and I don't mind at all posting it as much as needed to help save you some paper and inks.

I have multiple Epson Printers. 6 to be exact I believe. Only one of said printers has came straight from the box, been plugged in to power, USB'd to the computer and printed right on colors without any calibration at all. All of the others have been real bears, especially my 2200 which I ended up using about 100 dollars worth of ink and the equivalent in paper. I use all sorts of paper including Epson, cold and hot press water color paper from the art store, rice paper and so on........... I happen to be lucky enough to have some of my projects and grants sponsored by a company by the name of Hahnemuehle, which makes just about every sort of paper you can think of. It's archival, comes in warm and cold tones and has the feel of a fine old black and white printing paper much like that of what was once called Oriental Seagull. Here is the link to there website. Get a sampler pack and try it.

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/798/home.html

All of that to get to this. One day I was going stark raving mad trying to get rid of a red hue that had taken over one of my 13 x 19 inch prints without success. I tried every tutorial on the Epson site as well as working through the problem with the tech support people at Epson. Hahnemuehle also has profiles for every one of there papers. One day it hit me. If that damn $69.00 Epson 320 prints so perfectly right out of the box, then that has to be the answer. I then dropped the 320 profile (which you can download for free from Epson) and I dropped it into my profiles folders for all my other printers. Sure enough from that point on every time I printed I chose that profile in my configuration dialogue box and presto, nearly perfect prints each time. I hope this helps you and is as easy for you as it was for me. Let me know if I can offer any more help.

Chris

[MatthewMarshall]

What even gets harder is trying to get good matches when you use 3rd party inks. I took me 5 hours to make new profiles for all my epson printers

[jagerman]

Color managing a printer is something that I would not pull my hair out over these days. A few years ago it was a different story. Today you just need to take a step up in your model printer(like a 3800 or better) and buy a rip(maybe imageprint for portrait printing and/or something like colorburst for cmyk contract proofs). The rip does all the work and once a year you read a linearization target and call it a day. Printing the way it should be, Easy!

-W

[rnbluvva]

Hi Guys! Thanks for the info. I'm going to look into the things that were suggested.

One thing to keep in mind, and this is just for me... I'm not actually printing photography in that pure sense. I'm printing CD jewel cases and printing onto CD. It's the only thing I'm gong to use this Epson for. There is only that one Americal paper that is of good quality that is pre-perforated at this time and fits into their Jewel cases. I haven't tried the on disk printing yet, but I got the R800 specifically becuase it does on disc printing. I can not justify upgrading to a $1200 printer cost at this time, so that is definitely not an option for me.

At the end of the day, I guess the artwork will look how it looks even if it isn't perfect.

I'll post back as I tweak. Getting that cheaper Epson profile might jsut do the trick.. I'll let you know.

Thanks again!

[Dave.Cox]

One thing you will want to check. Since you are using a color profile in photoshop, and you have photoshop performing the color management, make sure that you have color management in your printer turned off. You can veryify this by going in to your printer settings dialoge. For most printers this is by default set to on, and you have to go into the printer dialoge to turn it off.

Also, if you have a scanner, your software may be able to create a custom profile for your printer. This is preferable to any default profiles that you can download, since it will adjust for variations in your printer. Again, you will want to make sure that color management is turned off in your printer before you do the calibration.

I had a similar problem with my printer, where my colors would not print correctly, even when using the correct profiles. By using the calibration software to create my own profile, I found that I finally started to get good color printing from my local printer.

[TommyO]

Natalie,
After reading through this post, I was confused by your workflow... which could be causing problems for you. You mentioned...

Just to clarify for me, I have to go Edit > Convert to Profile > Select the Epson Glossy profile > Intent: Perceptual

THEN

Print w/ Preview >
Color Handling: Let Photoshop Determine Colors
Printer Profile: Choose Epson Glossy profile (there's 2 that I have to fiddle with one is Photo Paper and the other is PremiumGlossy BestPhoto paper)
Rendering Intent: perceptual

Do I do black point compensation (what is that)?


You should not convert your image as you mention here. The image should stay in a format that you standardize on. For example, if most of your work is for the web or for low end printing, you could standardize on sRGB for all your images. (Those heavy into retouch might use AdobeRGB or ProPhoto.)

Again, do not convert the image... especially not to a "printer" profile. This is the purpose of the print utility. It does all the conversion on the fly.

Black point compensation probably will not remove the color cast. It is mostly for the shadows and ensures black is black, not over or under saturated.

Almost all high end printers work best with internal color management turned off, utilizing an ICC profile for color management. However, it is often surprising that many lower end printers (sorry, but I consider the R800 as low end... but I do like it) work better with their internal color management turned on and turn off all management from Photoshop. It boils down to the manufacturer knows the kinks in the printer and often embeds fixes in the CM scheme.

So, my suggestion would be to:
(a) keep your images in a standard profile, like sRGB;
(b) turn off CM in Photoshop, and turn on CM in your Epson.
If it works great... it's much easier. If not, we'll go to plan B !