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ME_wwwing 09-09-2012 09:34 AM

Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
this post is for: printing aRGB 16-bit tiffs, with a monitor able to calibrate in aRGB and using an INK Jet printer.
the following setting brings out the most detail in the shadow areas.

INK
1. what kind of ink are you using? OEM inks might give you only 100,000 colors.
2. the best inks give you 500,000 colors.

what kind of printer are you printing on? what ink is being used? IS the 1st thing you need to know so you don't over spend your money on equipment.

Paper
1. What kind of prints are you printing?
2. Who is buying these prints?

B&W's need to be printed on glossy at a very high ppi. make sure you enlarge your image, set the ppi and then sharpen the image.
Color Prints need what paper your Client Wants: a.) If printing on glossy high ppi is needed. make sure you enlarge your image, set the ppi and then sharpen the image. b.) Matte paper absorbs ink so ppi has some what of a limit depending on the OEM's paper.

REMEBER to ask what paper selection is to be selected when using their paper. Because your going to be asked this question when you print a color patch to match your ink. then you'll be asked again when you set the Print Settings (size, portrait, PAPER!)

Monitors

1. Does your monitor match your ink and printer?
2. Does your monitor calibrate in aRGB?

some high end monitors can give over a billion colors. does your printer print a billion colors? don't over spend for what you can't print.

if your working in aRGB then calibrate your monitor to aRGB.

Camera RAW

1. Camera RAW has the colors to give you ProPhoto or aRGB.
2. Are you printing with a 12 ink printer? use ProPhoto.

if not, why are your using anything more then aRGB? your comments are welcome on this subject.

RAW to 16 bit aRGB Tiff is a very good path to follow. if your a high end retoucher. then you need to spend your money on what the client wants from his/her images.

Computer

1. you need a 64 bit system to work with most high end software.
2. you'll need at least 8 gigs of RAM.

Adobe Software Setup

1. Open Color Setting.
Working Space
a.) set to aRGB, US web coated SWOP v2
Color Management
b.) OFF, OFF, OFF. Check Ask when Opening
Conversion Options
c.) Adobe (ace), RELATIVE COLORIMETRIC, Check Black Point

Selecting Off Off Off is the 1st step in stopping double proofing. The Check the ASK when opening. When opening an image and its not aRGB a screen will pop open and ask you what to do. So IF a sRGB come in AND you are going to print it. close the image. reopen Color Setting. Select sRGB and check 8bit dither. Now open the image.
Selecting RELATIVE COLORIMETRIC gives you the best shadow area prints WHEN you USE perceptual black point when printing.
i hate looking at prints 4 feet away and seeing shadowed areas as black blobs. to pull them out the best you can when editing. then use the above setting. you did your best to give the most seeable detail in the shadows.

ALL the above should be done and then left alone. THEN you go and get your ICC.

ICC profile for the paper

1. if you download the icc from the papers OEM. make sure your getting the right icc for your printer. the icc you down load is to be used with that OEM's ink. if your using and after market ink. you need to send them a color patch (made by them) to print (the way they want it printed). then they will send you that icc for THAT paper. every paper you use with after market ink needs to be done this way for your print to match your monitor.

Proofing
1. now that you have the right ICC when can make a custom proof.
2. open up custom under Proof Setup. select your icc for that paper.
select the icc you had made for your INK and Paper.
select Relative - check black point
do not check anything more.

NOW turn on your Custom Proof. you will see no change at all. if you do, you've done something wrong and have a double proof going on.
if not you didn't set the Color Settings like i posted before you printed a color patch AND you did not select your Custom Proof like i posted.

Print

1. open the Print Panel.
2. Select the printer you are going to use.
3. On the far right select button for Document. there you better see aRGB if your printing an aRGB. if your printing sRGB it better be sRGB.
4. Color Handling - select Photoshop Manages Color.
Printer Profile - find your icc that you had made to match the ink your using.
5. Rendering Intent - select Perceptual check black point.
6. Proof Setup - you better see your ICC profile you had made.

Now you can click on print setting and make your selections.
REMEMBER the paper setting i asked you to ask the paper company for. well now is the time to use it.

your print is going to be as close to your monitor as you can get.

Tony W 09-09-2012 01:08 PM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
As you asked Here "do you see anything wrong" I have commented on what I feel are some incorrect assumptions

Quote:

this post is for: printing aRGB 16-bit tiffs, with a monitor able to calibrate in aRGB and using an INK Jet printer.
...
B&W's need to be printed on glossy at a very high ppi. make sure you enlarge your image, set the ppi and then sharpen the image.
B&W do not need to be printed specifically on high gloss unless that is your choice and is of doubtful value if going under glass in a frame.
High ppi is fine but consideration should be given to print size and ‘correct’ viewing distance. For example if viewing is going to be up close say 10” then 600+ppi may be useful but for a larger print that is going to be viewed say 3 feet away then 180 ppi may be perfectly acceptable.


...Monitors

1. Does your monitor match your ink and printer?
2. Does your monitor calibrate in aRGB?

some high end monitors can give over a billion colors. does your printer print a billion colors? don't over spend for what you can't print.

if your working in aRGB then calibrate your monitor to aRGB.
The monitor colour gamut is just a range a wide gamut monitor has more range (may be aRGB or even higher?) than a standard monitor which may just cover sRGB.

Monitors are not really sRGB or aRGB devices as they have their own native space.

In a colour managed application such as Photoshop, you can edit images in sRGB, aRGB, or ProPhoto RGB without problem. The images will be shown using "correct" colours. The issue then comes down to what your monitor is capable of displaying i.e. is it sRGB or a wider gamut monitor.

AFAIK you cannot actually calibrate and profile a monitor to any particular working space. You are limited by the calibration software and your choices are likely to be:
White Point
Gamma
Display Luminance (Intensity)
Contrast Ratio
Color Gamut
For the last two I would generally prefer Monitor Defaults for contrast ratio and Native (Full) for Color Gamut.


Camera RAW

1. Camera RAW has the colors to give you ProPhoto or aRGB.
2. Are you printing with a 12 ink printer? use ProPhoto.

if not, why are your using anything more then aRGB? your comments are welcome on this subject.
If your output device is capable of producing wider gamut than aRGB then by all means use it. If not then there would seem little point other than trying to future proof until such time as you have a more capable device

RAW to 16 bit aRGB Tiff is a very good path to follow. if your a high end retoucher. then you need to spend your money on what the client wants from his/her images.
Computer

1. you need a 64 bit system to work with most high end software.
2. you'll need at least 8 gigs of RAM.
You can work quite adequately with a 32 bit system which by its nature is limited to only address 4GB of RAM and in practice the limit is likely to be 3-3.5GB usable by your apps. Therefore in Photoshop when the application runs out of RAM it uses virtual memory i.e. the Scratch Disk which in turn has an impact on system performance. So obviously a 64 bit system using more RAM is a better option as usage of scratch disk is minimised speeding up progress.

Adobe Software Setup

1. Open Color Setting.
Working Space
a.) set to aRGB, US web coated SWOP v2
Working space can be any you choose to work in including ProPhoto. CMYK could be different to US web coated if you work in Europe or Asia?
Color Management
b.) OFF, OFF, OFF. Check Ask when Opening
Conversion Options
IMO should be set to either Preserve Embedded or Convert to Working RGB and all boxes ticked i.e. Profile Mismatches and Missing Profiles
c.) Adobe (ace), RELATIVE COLORIMETRIC, Check Black Point

Selecting Off Off Off is the 1st step in stopping double proofing.
Not sure what is meant by double proofing? Double profiling on the other hand is related to your application and your printer driver both applying corrections usually with disastrous results this will be covered properly in the Print dialogue box

The Check the ASK when opening. When opening an image and its not aRGB a screen will pop open and ask you what to do. So IF a sRGB come in AND you are going to print it. close the image. reopen Color Setting. Select sRGB and check 8bit dither. Now open the image
When you get the Embedded Profile Mismatch dialogue box you can either use the embedded profile instead of your working space or convert the document to your working space

Selecting RELATIVE COLORIMETRIC gives you the best shadow area prints WHEN you USE perceptual black point when printing.
Not sure I agree or disagree here as I have not tried it however RelCol and Perceptual are designed to do two different things. RelCol keeps all colour the same if it is within the colour gamut of the destination profile and maps white in the source to white in the destination. For out of gamut it maps to the nearest colour?
Perceptual focus is on maintaining colour relationship and will compress the entire gamut so that it fits within the destination profile - this is not always the best choice.

i hate looking at prints 4 feet away and seeing shadowed areas as black blobs. to pull them out the best you can when editing. then use the above setting. you did your best to give the most seeable detail in the shadows.

ALL the above should be done and then left alone. THEN you go and get your ICC.

ICC profile for the paper

1. if you download the icc from the papers OEM. make sure your getting the right icc for your printer. the icc you down load is to be used with that OEM's ink. if your using and after market ink. you need to send them a color patch (made by them) to print (the way they want it printed). then they will send you that icc for THAT paper. every paper you use with after market ink needs to be done this way for your print to match your monitor.

Proofing
1. now that you have the right ICC when can make a custom proof.
2. open up custom under Proof Setup. select your icc for that paper.
select the icc you had made for your INK and Paper.
select Relative - check black point
do not check anything more.

NOW turn on your Custom Proof. you will see no change at all. if you do, you've done something wrong and have a double proof going on.
if not you didn't set the Color Settings like i posted before you printed a color patch AND you did not select your Custom Proof like i posted.
You should in most cases actually see a change when you have custom proof switched on and you have selected the correct paper profile. If you have a duplicate image on screen you can see the changes (with preview switched on) and if necessary apply layer adjustments to match the soft proof window closer to your non proof view
Print

1. open the Print Panel.
2. Select the printer you are going to use.
3. On the far right select button for Document. there you better see aRGB if your printing an aRGB. if your printing sRGB it better be sRGB.
4. Color Handling - select Photoshop Manages Color.
Printer Profile - find your icc that you had made to match the ink your using.
5. Rendering Intent - select Perceptual check black point.
6. Proof Setup - you better see your ICC profile you had made.
There is no single correct rendering intent the best one is the one that gives the most pleasing result.

Now you can click on print setting and make your selections.
REMEMBER the paper setting i asked you to ask the paper company for. well now is the time to use it.

your print is going to be as close to your monitor as you can get

ME_wwwing 09-09-2012 08:25 PM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony W (Post 310943)
[FONT=&quot]As you asked Here "do you see anything wrong" I have commented on what I feel are some incorrect assumptions

>B&W do not need to be printed specifically on high gloss unless that is your choice and is of doubtful value if going under glass in a frame.
High ppi is fine but consideration should be given to print size and ‘correct’ viewing distance. For example if viewing is going to be up close say 10” then 600+ppi may be useful but for a larger print that is going to be viewed say 3 feet away then 180 ppi may be perfectly acceptable.

good glossy paper can take very high ppi because the paper does not absorb the ink.
wouldn't it be better to push the ppi no matter what distant one views the image?

>AFAIK you cannot actually calibrate and profile a monitor to any particular working space. You are limited by the calibration software and your choices are likely to be:

Thanks Tony

>If your output device is capable of producing wider gamut than aRGB then by all means use it. If not then there would seem little point other than trying to future proof until such time as you have a more capable device.

i'm looking at it as how many colors can the printer print. my understanding is the best 12 ink printers can only give us 500,000 colors. ProPhoto goes why beyond that number.
pushing your system and monitor to work in prophoto seems like over spent money.

>
i see your point on 64 bit systems. it seems i didn't write what i was trying to say. should have said large images exported to other high end software need 64 bit to work with no freeze ups.


>CMYK could be different to US web coated if you work in Europe or Asia?

i don't know the answer to that one.

>IMO should be set to either Preserve Embedded or Convert to Working RGB and all boxes ticked i.e. Profile Mismatches and Missing Profiles

as a retoucher that is a safe way. but if your going to print the image. this will cause your image to change color when you apply a proof.
thus double proofing.
the Document is (example) aRGB and the Papers Profile is using the OEMs ink to their paper.
epson ink on epson paper. canon ink on canon paper.
Adobe is using aRGB and the printer is using their ink to their paper to print. so you should see no change in your image when turning on a proof.


>Double profiling on the other hand is related to your application and your printer driver both applying corrections usually with disastrous results this will be covered properly in the Print dialogue box

the Proof you use is using the profile that should be made by the ink maker to the paper you want to print on. which you will set in the Print dialogue box.
this way you should not be seeing any changes in the image in the Print dialogue box either.


>RelCol and Perceptual
i printed out 1 image every why possible. if those that print do the same setup as layed out. they should see the same thing when printing.

>You should in most cases actually see a change when you have custom proof switched on and you have selected the correct paper profile.

ya know. that's what i thought for years. until i learned the steps i listed in the 1st post.
what i see edited in PS, add a proof, give the driver the profile and print. zero difference on my monitor and print. a perfect match. its a miracle.

>There is no single correct rendering intent the best one is the one that gives the most pleasing result.

what i'm seeing in my prints. which are landscapes. Perceptual pulls out the shadows the best.
if i were printing a painting. i would use Relative to get the deeper darks of each color.
for fashion, i don't have a clue. my guess would be Perceptual because you don't want darken shadows. black or blond hair would blob together.

Tony W 09-10-2012 05:21 AM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

good glossy paper can take very high ppi because the paper does not absorb the ink.
wouldn't it be better to push the ppi no matter what distant one views the image?
I think the main difference between mat, semi gloss and glossy papers is that mat and semi gloss have less apparent dynamic range and colour gamut. While it is true that glossy paper does not absorb the ink (as much as non gloss) the dpi that you set for the printer does not necessarily relate to the ppi of your image as the printer will require several dots of ink to produce a proper colour to the image. Remember also that inkjet printers may not have a fixed dpi laying down small to large ink blobs depending on image content.

Up to a point increasing dpi will produce more detailed output, beyond that point you are likely to be doing nothing to increase apparent resolution and detail. Viewing distance does play a role in evaluating how far to go with dpi but is reliant on your observer following the rules and viewing from the correct distance – should you get a pixel peeper such as me that cannot resist taking a closer look all bets are off and perhaps a higher dpi would have been useful?

Quote:

i'm looking at it as how many colors can the printer print. my understanding is the best 12 ink printers can only give us 500,000 colors. ProPhoto goes why beyond that number.
pushing your system and monitor to work in prophoto seems like over spent money.
I understand that some/many of the newer professional photo inkjet printers can reproduce colors that lie outside sRGB and even exceed aRGB. Therefore working in one of these spaces will not allow you to take full advantage of the printers useful gamut. For those printers capable of exceeding aRGB ProPhoto would seem to be a logical choice to accommodate all the colours your printer is capable of.
Quote:

>IMO should be set to either Preserve Embedded or Convert to Working RGB and all boxes ticked i.e. Profile Mismatches and Missing Profiles

as a retoucher that is a safe way. but if your going to print the image. this will cause your image to change color when you apply a proof.
thus double proofing.
the Document is (example) aRGB and the Papers Profile is using the OEMs ink to their paper.
epson ink on epson paper. canon ink on canon paper.
Adobe is using aRGB and the printer is using their ink to their paper to print. so you should see no change in your image when turning on a proof.
I really believe your understanding of this is incorrect. AFAIK there is no such thing as double proofing and I believe what you are thinking about here is double profiling.

This is totally different issue as it refers to the fact that you are colour managing a document twice once by the printer software and once by the application such as Photoshop. In that case with an Epson printer for instance you will likely see a big shift in colour cast to magenta. If you set colour management in your printer software to off or none and you select printer manages colour in Photoshop your are now printing a document with no colour management, again with an Epson you are likely to see a big shift towards green.

When you set custom soft proof in Photoshop and have the options to preview and simulate black and paper white you will see a change in your image. This is normal and to be expected, the paper and ink combination of the profile are/should be correct but of course the media is going to be reflective rather than the emissive nature of a monitor.

With experience of a particular paper you may find that you need to make very small changes to either contrast or colour or both to get the closest match

Quote:

>Double profiling on the other hand is related to your application and your printer driver both applying corrections usually with disastrous results this will be covered properly in the Print dialogue box

the Proof you use is using the profile that should be made by the ink maker to the paper you want to print on. which you will set in the Print dialogue box.
this way you should not be seeing any changes in the image in the Print dialogue box either.
As stated above you will see a change if you are managing your documents correctly

Quote:

>RelCol and Perceptual
i printed out 1 image every why possible. if those that print do the same setup as layed out. they should see the same thing when printing.

>You should in most cases actually see a change when you have custom proof switched on and you have selected the correct paper profile.

ya know. that's what i thought for years. until i learned the steps i listed in the 1st post.
what i see edited in PS, add a proof, give the driver the profile and print. zero difference on my monitor and print. a perfect match. its a miracle.
. I have to say that the steps you learned and listed IMO are poor colour management practice (voodoo moves!) in spite of you feeling that you are getting a good result.

Quote:

>There is no single correct rendering intent the best one is the one that gives the most pleasing result.

what i'm seeing in my prints. which are landscapes. Perceptual pulls out the shadows the best.
if i were printing a painting. i would use Relative to get the deeper darks of each color.
for fashion, i don't have a clue. my guess would be Perceptual because you don't want darken shadows. black or blond hair would blob together.
The pulling out shadows and the clipping of blonde hair has less to do with your chosen rendering intent and more to do with the ability of your printer to record discrete tones below and above a certain level.

For instance if your image has very dark tones say from 0 to 15 and your printer is only able to produce a discrete tone above black at level 10 then those tones below this will be recorded as complete black. Similarly with highlight areas values above a certain level will just blend into white without separation.

What you should do IMO is to test the tonal range of your printer and where you find the darkest black and brightest white points these will become your output levels in either a curves or levels adjustment layer.

I have attached an example of an image you may want to reproduce yourself - do not use this as your test. EDIT: When you produce your own do not use the grey background but just set to white - I did it this way as I wanted to experiment with photographing the chart!
Once printed and properly dry examine the print in bright light. Make a note of the blackest level that you can see before the next level goes completely black and also the highest level that you can see before total white. These will be the Output levels you will set in the Levels adjustment. On my HP printer the lowest level I can see for black is about 6-8 and white records all levels as discrete tones up to 254. Therefore when printing I will set output level to 8 for black point and white I will leave alone. These results are only applicable to a particular paper and will need to be tailored for each paper type you use

ME_wwwing 09-10-2012 09:26 AM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
[QUOTE=Tony W;310962] Remember also that inkjet printers may not have a fixed dpi laying down small to large ink blobs depending on image content.

the difference in ink spray size comes from how high of quality you are printing at. the highest setting the smallest droplet.


> I really believe your understanding of this is incorrect. AFAIK there is no such thing as double proofing and I believe what you are thinking about here is double profiling.

thanks

>If you set colour management in your printer software to off or none and you select printer manages colour in Photoshop your are now printing a document with no colour management.

ya i did go into the printer setting. turning Off (no color adjustment) is the right way to print.

> When you set custom soft proof in Photoshop and have the options to preview and simulate black and paper white you will see a change in your image. This is normal and to be expected, the paper and ink combination of the profile are/should be correct but of course the media is going to be reflective rather than the emissive nature of a monitor.

simulate paper just screws things up. just leave it off.
sending in a color patch will take care of that. just make sure you use the icm from ink maker.


> I have to say that the steps you learned and listed IMO are poor colour management practice (voodoo moves!) in spite of you feeling that you are getting a good result.

i've printed the way you have set the settings. And i've played the game adjusting colors to get good results in printing. those days are over for me.
printing a color patch and have a spectrophotometer read the ink to make the icm. takes the color adjustments out of the guessing game.

>The pulling out shadows and the clipping of blonde hair has less to do with your chosen rendering intent and more to do with the ability of your printer to record discrete tones below and above a certain level.

when using any sharpening on blond or black hair seems to blend some hairs together. it's the rendering intent that can cause more of this on a print.
the rendering intent also plays on darkening the shadow in low light shots. i know nikon can dig out a shadow and show a lot of detail. but at a certain point printing will take do its thing.

>For instance if your image has very dark tones say from 0 to 15 and your printer is only able to produce a discrete tone above black at level 10 then those tones below this will be recorded as complete black. Similarly with highlight areas values above a certain level will just blend into white without separation.

Perceptual and Relative using Black Point will cause more or less of this problem. what helps this and gets a better separation is a color patch read by a spectrophotometer. the best color patches to use have gradient colors.


> What you should do IMO is to test the tonal range of your printer and where you find the darkest black and brightest white points these will become your output levels in either a curves or levels adjustment layer.

see the above comment.

> I have attached an example of an image you may want to reproduce yourself - do not use this as your test. EDIT: When you produce your own do not use the grey background but just set to white - I did it this way as I wanted to experiment with photographing the chart!
Once printed and properly dry examine the print in bright light. Make a note of the blackest level that you can see before the next level goes completely black and also the highest level that you can see before total white. These will be the Output levels you will set in the Levels adjustment. On my HP printer the lowest level I can see for black is about 6-8 and white records all levels as discrete tones up to 254. Therefore when printing I will set output level to 8 for black point and white I will leave alone. These results are only applicable to a particular paper and will need to be tailored for each paper type you use.

the ink is matched to the papers i use. but i'll give it a go when i get time. it would be nice to know the answer.
thanks for replying to this thread.

Tony W 09-10-2012 11:29 AM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
I am really trying hard to understand where you are coming from with this workflow and I am not trying to be argumental.

But the whole workflow from Color Settings turning Off Off Off makes no sense that I can see. In fact turning off Preserve or Convert in Color settings does nothing other than leave you open to make mistakes with the document and will be of no help in stopping double profiling.

Quote:

the difference in ink spray size comes from how high of quality you are printing at. the highest setting the smallest droplet.
Not necessarily true with modern inkjets.
DPI is an output resolution used to describe device resolution and in an inkjet they represent the smallest physical size of the ink drop on the media. But multiple dots are needed to reproduce a single tone. The printer actually lays down ink in volume measured in picoliters (a trillionth of a liter). Most inkjet printers use variable drop size technology. Epson printers use a variable dot size which in practice gives the following:
Different ink droplets can be combined to achieve more tonal representation
The smallest ink droplet sizes can be used in the low density or highlight areas reducing the visibility of dots
Large ink droplets are used in dense coverage areas to improve print speed
Quote:

When you set custom soft proof in Photoshop and have the options to preview and simulate black and paper white you will see a change in your image. This is normal and to be expected, the paper and ink combination of the profile are/should be correct but of course the media is going to be reflective rather than the emissive nature of a monitor.
simulate paper just screws things up. just leave it off.
sending in a color patch will take care of that. just make sure you use the icm from ink maker.
Simulate paper is there for a good reason i.e. to obviously simulate how ink will look when printed to the white base of your paper which is very different to the light your monitor emits. With an accurate icc paper profile you will get a good simulation of the final print – turn it off if you want but you will lose accuracy in print to screen match.

You said ‘sending in a colour patch’, what does that mean exactly? Are you referring to having a custom profile made or making your own – which is far more involved than sending in a patch?

Quote:

> I have to say that the steps you learned and listed IMO are poor colour management practice (voodoo moves!) in spite of you feeling that you are getting a good result.

i've printed the way you have set the settings. And i've played the game adjusting colors to get good results in printing. those days are over for me.
printing a color patch and have a spectrophotometer read the ink to make the icm. takes the color adjustments out of the guessing game.
Again a colour patch just sounds wrong unless you mean producing your own paper profiles and then reading with your own spectrophotometer.

Quote:

>The pulling out shadows and the clipping of blonde hair has less to do with your chosen rendering intent and more to do with the ability of your printer to record discrete tones below and above a certain level.

when using any sharpening on blond or black hair seems to blend some hairs together. it's the rendering intent that can cause more of this on a print.
the rendering intent also plays on darkening the shadow in low light shots. i know nikon can dig out a shadow and show a lot of detail. but at a certain point printing will take do its thing.
Sharpening should not have much if any effect relating to rendering intent. If you over sharpen and blend hairs together in the process I am doubtful that any rendering intent will improve the situation. The loss of shadow detail similarly is related to your printers ability to produce discreet tones at low levels and these may need to be set as outlined in my last post with attachment. The bottom line is that if you can see highlight and shadow detail in your screen image then by adjusting your output levels to the printer you will see these details in print regardless of rendering intent.

Quote:

>For instance if your image has very dark tones say from 0 to 15 and your printer is only able to produce a discrete tone above black at level 10 then those tones below this will be recorded as complete black. Similarly with highlight areas values above a certain level will just blend into white without separation.

Perceptual and Relative using Black Point will cause more or less of this problem. what helps this and gets a better separation is a color patch read by a spectrophotometer. the best color patches to use have gradient colors.
How exactly are you employing colour patches with gradient colours?

Quote:

> What you should do IMO is to test the tonal range of your printer and where you find the darkest black and brightest white points these will become your output levels in either a curves or levels adjustment layer.

> I have attached an example of an image you may want to reproduce yourself - do not use this as your test. EDIT: When you produce your own do not use the grey background but just set to white - I did it this way as I wanted to experiment with photographing the chart!
Once printed and properly dry examine the print in bright light. Make a note of the blackest level that you can see before the next level goes completely black and also the highest level that you can see before total white. These will be the Output levels you will set in the Levels adjustment. On my HP printer the lowest level I can see for black is about 6-8 and white records all levels as discrete tones up to 254. Therefore when printing I will set output level to 8 for black point and white I will leave alone. These results are only applicable to a particular paper and will need to be tailored for each paper type you use.

the ink is matched to the papers i use. but i'll give it a go when i get time. it would be nice to know the answer.
Being able to see discrete tonality in the shadows and highlights has little to do with ink matched to paper but as described above how your printer handles both high and low values which you will establish after running similar tests

One final question where will your reference source to this workflow be found?

ME_wwwing 09-11-2012 01:55 PM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
>But the whole workflow from Color Settings turning Off Off Off makes no sense that I can see. In fact turning off Preserve or Convert in Color settings does nothing other than leave you open to make mistakes with the document and will be of no help in stopping double profiling.

what it means to me is the image i open is not getting any extra Color Management.

> Different ink droplets can be combined to achieve more tonal representation
The smallest ink droplet sizes can be used in the low density or highlight areas reducing the visibility of dots
Large ink droplets are used in dense coverage areas to improve print speed

i agree with what you wrote.
all i was saying is when you turn the printers highest quality on. the printer will use only its finest spray.

> Simulate paper is there for a good reason i.e. to obviously simulate how ink will look when printed to the white base of your paper which is very different to the light your monitor emits. With an accurate icc paper profile you will get a good simulation of the final print – turn it off if you want but you will lose accuracy in print to screen match.

i don't print on a lot of different papers. turning it on and then editing the color. then printing it out and the print still doesn't match means more editing. so i take it out of the loop.

>You said ‘sending in a colour patch’, what does that mean exactly? Are you referring to having a custom profile made.


yes

>Again a colour patch just sounds wrong unless you mean producing your own paper profiles and then reading with your own spectrophotometer.

actually the ink company needed it done. so their INK can match up with the paper.


>Sharpening should not have much if any effect relating to rendering intent. If you over sharpen and blend hairs together in the process I am doubtful that any rendering intent will improve the situation.

true, the printer can compound the problem by using Relative or Perceptual. that is why printing out a test image with different setting lets you see for yourself which setting is better for what kind of image.
like you say later. - related to your printers ability to produce discreet tones at low levels-.

> these may need to be set as outlined in my last post with attachment. The bottom line is that if you can see highlight and shadow detail in your screen image then by adjusting your output levels to the printer you will see these details in print regardless of rendering intent.

i didn't know that. thanks for the tip.

>How exactly are you employing colour patches with gradient colours?

the patch has the colors in gradient.

>Being able to see discrete tonality in the shadows and highlights has little to do with ink matched to paper but as described above how your printer handles both high and low values which you will establish after running similar tests.

again. thanks. i learned something today.

>One final question where will your reference source to this workflow be found?

its not on the web. but from a guy that does competition printing.

Tony W 09-11-2012 07:18 PM

Re: Printing matching ink, paper, monitor
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

>But the whole workflow from Color Settings turning Off Off Off makes no sense that I can see. In fact turning off Preserve or Convert in Color settings does nothing other than leave you open to make mistakes with the document and will be of no help in stopping double profiling.

what it means to me is the image i open is not getting any extra Color Management.
Color Settings does not apply any extra colour management at any stage with any settings.

The dialogue box that opens is there to give you the opportunity to either use the images embedded profile or convert directly to your working space which in your case is aRGB?

The other option is to discard which is not usually to be recommended as unless the embedded profile is the same as your current working space you will probably see incorrect colours. I cannot think of one good reason to turn these settings to off in your scenario.

There is also no need to go back to alter things in the Color Settings dialogue. If you bring in an sRGB image as you can convert it to your working space aRGB or use the embedded profile to leave alone. You can see from the attached image that the Embedded dialogue box is the same but the default options change depending on your settings in the Color Settings dialogue

Quote:

>Again a colour patch just sounds wrong unless you mean producing your own paper profiles and then reading with your own spectrophotometer.

actually the ink company needed it done. so their INK can match up with the paper.
So you have a paper profile from an ink company for a paper that is not theirs?
How do you know that it is actually a good profile?
Is it as good as the printer manufacturers ink and canned profiles and when did you last test this?
I know there is a great temptation to save money but often problems can be had with third party providers as there batch to batch variations and general quality control may not be as high as it should be.
Quote:

>How exactly are you employing colour patches with gradient colours?

the patch has the colors in gradient.
So you are not actually measuring the patches yourself but this is what you provided to the ink supplier and they gave you an profile for that particular paper and also profiles for any other paper you may use?

Quote:

>One final question where will your reference source to this workflow be found?

its not on the web. but from a guy that does competition printing.
I will refrain from comment on this


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