Matte vs Glossy

[chiquitita]

Many of the online printing sites that offer matte say that it will take an extra week. I have inquired and they say it is because most customers prefer glossy and there isn't much demand for matte, therefore they only change paper and print matte once a week.

Does anyone know of a photo print shop (upload and order online) that is cheap *and* prints matte more than once or twice a week?

The initial poll is asking if most of you prefer glossy or matte prints.

[DJ Dubovsky]

I'm not sure what you're asking specifically in the poll you started however, here is a thread started by Jill who did some online printing tests for quality, speed, and pricing. You might find this interesting. I think there is another one also I will see if I can find for you.
DJ

[chiquitita]

Thanks DJ, I edited my post and tried to clarify, however I cannot edit the poll (it would be kind of nice if the original poll poster had that ability).

Old threads are great, and that one had some helpful information, but I am always interested in the latest developments. Online services are coming and going like crazy and the competition certainly makes each one improve upon what the others have developed.

Is it better to post a newer, more specific thread, or to post new messages to one that is almost a year old? I am not aware of the "rule of thumb" on this subject...

[DJ Dubovsky]

Threads are never dead. If you have new updated info to an old thread then put it there or start a new one. I don't think there is any hard rules there. It would depend on the subject I guess and the posters judgement on where that info would best fit.

Now as to the poll, that clarifies it and is basically what I figured you meant but thought I should make sure first. Here's what I think. I used to love the look of the matte finish on photos so I ordered them alot. Then, I discovered what a nightmare they are when you scan them to repair. Now, I go glossy all the way. It makes sense when you're in our line of business.
DJ

[chiquitita]

I know the old matte finishes with lots of texture are a nightmare, but the matte finishes of the past few years are very fine - I guess you would call it satin - and I don't even see the texture no matter how far I zoom in when it is scanned. Also, there is less reflection in the scan so I find that they scan better.

Also, less fingerprints, more vivid color, and I find them slightly more durable, or maybe it just doesn't show the damage as much. Also restorations especially don't look right on glossy.

Just my opinon.

[Jakaleena]

I only use a satin (or lustre) finish on my restoration work. I've only had scan/texture problems when working with E surface, which has a deeper texture than satin.

I think my opinions on photo surfaces were formed from years of working at photo studios. I don't think I've ever seen a truly professional image on glossy surface (that I can recall), except for those done on Cibachrome. None of the studios I've worked for ever used glossy for anything except reproduction grade images to be sent to magazines or yearbooks. So I automatically equate matte with professional and glossy with amateur.

My own personal bias I suppose...

[chiquitita]

I have to agree. The difference in photos I have printed matte versus glossy is amazing. The glossy ones - especially restoration work of portraits - look like I have taken a picture of a picture - it looks unnatural to me. My matte prints turn out beautifully while the glossy ones always look blurry.

[Bob Walden]

Ouch! I consider myself professional after 30 some yrs and still use glossy. Backgroud is in industrial and commercial photography. If not 4x5 or 8x10 trans I always supply glossy. Much sharper image. For our portrait bus we use lustra because you do not want a tack sharp picture. Also its hard to copy proffs from lustra as we all know from trying to scan them.

Jakaleena, I still think you and your work are great though. Can't start an online romance though because I've been happily married for 30 some years. Boy rounding off the numbers on the low side sure makes them sound better.

Bob

[Jakaleena]

Ouch! I consider myself professional after 30 some yrs and still use glossy. Backgroud is in industrial and commercial photography. If not 4x5 or 8x10 trans I always supply glossy. Much sharper image. For our portrait bus we use lustra

Well, maybe my bias to matte/lustre is because the studios I've worked for didn't do industrial/commercial work - only portraits & people, weddings, etc. I've never really worked with industrial/commercial stuff.

[charles]

I wish I could get decent matte around here. All my local printers use a matte paper that is very rough and actually ruins the prints, one can see the roughness of the paper spoiling an otherwise smooth image.
Charles.

[DJ Dubovsky]

Why is that anyway? When I think in terms of matte I think dull with no shine as in paint but in photo prints matte means shiny but on a bumpy surface to lesson it a bit. The old photos from years back were printed on matte paper that was true matte paper. Most printer can't even come close to that these days.
DJ

[Vikki]

I've been on a mini mission to find a good matte print.
From some online information I've read, I think what
I'm looking for is an "N" surface print. Does that sound right?

The paper I want is like Epson Heavyweight Matte, but I don't want an inkjet - just the same type of finish.
If anyone knows of an online place, or national chain, I would love to know.
Vikki

[DJ Dubovsky]

Back when I was using an outside printer and needed that old fashioned matte look, I got matte finishing spray for art and photos and sprayed the glossy photo. It worked great. It was the closest thing to an old fashion print I'd seen minus the thickness of the old time photo paper. Still would like to know a place as well but when I enquired I was told they don't make that kind of paper. Good luck on your quest Vikki and do let us know if you make any headway.
DJ

[Jakaleena]

N surface is a soft matte (Luster or Satin)
E surface is a hard matte with deeper texture (which may be what Charles was referring to)
F surface is glossy

(N surface is the type they use at Wal-Mart - at least it is at my local one so I'm guessing they all do...)

That all applies to color paper. With black & white paper, the surfaces with the same letter indications are a bit different in texture type. A good camera shop that sells darkroom supplies should have a sample book so that you can see actual prints made on each of the types of surfaces they sell. If they don't have one available, they should be able to get one. I know Kodak has sample books that they provide to resellers (you may even be able to contact Kodak yourself and get a paper sample book - not sure if they give those out to just anyone or what one would cost, but maybe a local camera store can even order one for you). I think Ilford provides sample books too, but that's BW paper. Even if you don't intend to buy photo paper and process images yourself, that should help you to be able to tell the lab you're using what paper it is that you want...

Art spray is a good option. I've used it myself and really like the look. But it's delicate and can be easily damaged when used on RC paper, which is something that clients should probably be told about so that they're careful when handling the prints. It should also be matted and never put directly against the glass when framing.

Modern color papers are virtually all RC, so I don't know of any that have that old fashioned, dull, truly matte look that was common in BW. The only way to get that look is to have a BW fibre print made and actually hand color it the old fashioned way...

[Bob Walden]

Hi all!

Maybe I can help a little. As Jakaleena was saying almost all papers used by labs are RC, meaning resin coated. In other words a plastic coating. When DJ was referring to the old fashion look that would be a fiber based paper. It had more depth to it. Also it allowed for many types of toning that the RC's can't absorb. Beautiful colors were available such as selenium, copper, gold and even sepia was done with toner. On the plus side this gave the prints almost a three dimensional effect. Really beautiful and long lasting. On the minus side (cough cough) VERY toxic. Most of us stopped using toners years ago. Also MATTE SPRAYS which can be toxic if inhaled.

Bob

[Vikki]

Thank you all so much for the information!
I'm going to give the spray a try on something I can part with, just to see what happens.
I'll also give Walmart a try.
Jak, how do you get matte prints from Walmart? I don't see that option at their online photo center.
Thanks again
Vikki

[Jakaleena]

Vikki,

I don't use the Wal-Mart online photo center - it's the local Wal-Mart in town that has matte prints in their one hour photo center.

[Vikki]

Thanks Jak.
But now I have another question.
Whenever I've spoken with someone at Walmart's photo center, they are clueless regarding digital, and even the online process.
So, my question is, what exactly do you say to the salesperson, and what media do you use, so that you can get a matte print.
Thanks again
Vikki

[cinderella]

The Wal Mart I use gives me no choice about the paper they print on. They have a FujiFrontier and print on FujiCrystal matte (with a lot of texture). It is so inexpensive that printing one or two would be a good way for you to try.

My daughter can get prints made at her grocery super store in Austin that has a Noritsu digi printer. The Kodak paper they use can be glossy or matte. Their matte is a satin version. Again inexpensive . So printing one or two would be a good way to go.

I bring a CD .In the WalMart store , leave it .At the other store one loads the CD oneself ,makes selections and then comes back later for the prints.

For me the big problem has been getting back prints that have similar color to what I see on my monitor. The forum has been a great help with that and there is some discussion on the InputOutput thread as well as on this topic about that.

[Jakaleena]

Whenever I've spoken with someone at Walmart's photo center, they are clueless regarding digital, and even the online process.

Unfortunately, I think you find that problem in a lot of consumer labs that have gone digital. Either the people that work there are knowledgeable about photo printing but haven't made the knowledge leap into the new world of digital, or the people that work there are just minimum wage workers with no real photo knowledge in the first place.

Fortunately, it's not a global truth. There are labs to be found out there where the people are both knowledgeable and helpful. But they are rare gems and seem to be getting rarer as technology advances.

For the most part, the way things are currently, the consumer needs to know enough to educate the lab employee if necessary. I know it shouldn't be that way, but that's what things seem to have come down to.

Now I'll fess up.

I am currently working at my local Wal-Mart so I end up making my own prints. The Frontier is a wonderful piece of equipment. I've been working in labs for about 20 years now (mostly pro labs & capture labs but they do often have minilab equipment in them for making machine prints), and the Frontier is by far the best thing I've seen yet for the type of work it does. But (and this is a big "but" here) the machine is only as good as its operator.

Even before I started working there, I was a big fan of the Wal-Mart photo centers in my area (there were 3 that I used prior to getting a job there). The people there were great, they bent over backwards to do my stuff for me, and the prints they made were just beautiful. Maybe I just got lucky and maybe not all Wal-Mart stores are as good, but the quality of the work and helpfulness of the employees was one of the reasons I accepted the job offer...

The thing I've found most often that's the problem when a print off of my Frontier doesn't match what I was expecting is that my monitor is out of calibration.

One way to get good prints from a lab is to find a lab you like and will stick with, have a few prints made from your digital files and then go home and calibrate your monitor until what you see on the screen is a good overall match to what you got from the lab. You'll need to repeat this calibration as often as you would any regular calibration. NOTE: this will not work for you if you switch regularly between several different labs since you are in effect calibrating your monitor to specifically match a particular lab's equipment! (This is how we've calibrated our lab monitors internally at labs I've worked for previously).

I personally have never had to match my own monitor to the prints at the lab. I just do a normal monitor calibration and (for me) the prints match fine as long as I keep my monitor properly calibrated using the Adobe Gamma utility.

Another thing to remember is that a print (reflected light) will never match a computer screen (transmitted light) perfectly. It is the modern equivalent dilemma of trying to get a print from a slide to match the actual transparency. It can come close, and the print can have its own beautiful qualities, but they can never truly exactly match because they are apples and oranges. If you keep in mind as you're working on your computer that your end result will be paper, and not a mass of glowing pixels, you can get good results. You can know that your colors may look slightly different in print than they do on your monitor (photo paper has a hard time interpreting bright primary colors, especially red). You can also know in advance that the subtle difference between 00000 (black) and 1A1919 (almost black) that you can readily see on your computer screen is not going to be "seen" by the emulsion on photo paper and can adjust as necessary to get a good print.

There seems to be this huge quest for the perfect ICC profile among people who work with Photoshop. I see discussions about it on Usenet all the time, and I've had several conversations about it with members here. From my point of view, as someone who's never done anything except work in photo labs, it is a search for a holy grail that doesn't exist. I work strictly in sRGB. I've never used a color profile. I don't even know how to use them. And even before I started working at my present job, the prints I got there from my files were wonderful. Yes, there were a few "clinkers" along the way, but I took them back, explained what I didn't like and what I wanted instead, and the communication between myself and the lab eventually resulted in them being able to make an excellent educated guess about what kinds of corrections to make on their end to give me exactly what I was looking for on mine. The biggest issue for me was that they were happy to go out of their way to work with me to be sure they gave me what I wanted. If you can find a lab with that attitude, any other problems that exist can usually be surmounted through good communication.

Getting good prints means building a working relationship with a lab. Relationships take work, even that kind. What customers are looking for is so widely varied and subjective that you have to have quite a few "dates" before you even get to know one another well. And as you get to know one another, you get to know each other's limitations and strong points, likes and dislikes. But giving up on a lab before that relationship can form just builds frustrations on both sides - you don't stay long enough to get a good print, and the lab loses you as a customer before they have a chance to get a "feel" for what your particular likes and dislikes are.

Give the lab manager the address for RP and ask them to check it out. This would be a good place for lab employees to visit, even if they don't do retouching or restoration themselves. It would put them in touch with a slice of their potential client base and allow them to learn some things that may make them better able to give you the kind of service you want.

They have a FujiFrontier and print on FujiCrystal matte (with a lot of texture).

The Fuji Crystal Archive Lustre paper is actually an N surface finish. Much less texture than an E surface paper. It does have more texture than an N surface in some other brands though. If you can find an Agfa lab nearby, you might like Agfa's lustre paper better if the Fuji has too much texture for your taste, since the Agfa has a bit less texture to it. I personally don't like the colors produced by Agfa paper as well though...

[Vikki]

Thanks again for the info.
I just called our local Walmart. They only accept film for the 1 hour process - no digital, cd or otherwise. Darn!
I'll have to check in the next, nearby town.

[cinderella]

If you go to this web site you can use
the locator to find the digital camera
developing service provider nearest you

http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epa...jsp?flash=true

[Vikki]

Thank you for that link!!
I found a store in my area, and called.
The person I spoke with seemed very knowledgeable, and I think I may be able to get what I'm looking for.
I can't wait to try them out!
Thanks again
Vikki

[Lampy]

Hi

I prefer my photos to be Matte. I just like the look of them and the surface isn't marred as easily (finger prints etc.). However, these days most of my prints are glossy because it's easier when ordering on-line.

For digital retouching of vintage images it depends on the project/age of the original and preference of the client.

Has anyone looked at Consumer Reports this month? There is a comparison of on-line photo printers. They don't mention matte vs. glossy but it's interesting to see the print and quality comparisons.

--Heather

[Schwartzie]

Walmart online prints are glossy and from the store what they call matte. I dont consider bumpy-glossy to be matte myself but i guess they do. The people here dont even know what a tiff file is but they are pleasant and do know how to print an unprinter corrected photo and can use a zip or other disk for the one hour prints.

[Juliana Ross]

Hi there everyone,

At my lab we do mail for a lot of our customers.
website is www.showcaseinc.com
and you can reach processing at 800-325-7676
we do both glossy and matte all the time six days a week, and our techs have at least 16 years experience.....
I'll check with the boss lady and see if we can set up a discount for RetouchPro members if anyone is interesed
and heck I can personally print your stuff if you send it to my attention


Juliana

[Lampy]

Well I might be interested. I went to the website but couldn't find a price list and shipping cost estimate. Maybe I need to be logged in. Could you give us some of that info or point us to the right page?

Of course I'm sure everyone here would be interested in discounts! Those are always good incentives to give something new a try!

--Heather

[Juliana Ross]

[QUOTE=Lampy]Well I might be interested. I went to the website but couldn't find a price list and shipping cost estimate. Maybe I need to be logged in. Could you give us some of that info or point us to the right page?

Of course I'm sure everyone here would be interested in discounts! Those are always good incentives to give something new a try!

--Heather


ah sorry the evil ones who control the website swore they had my price list posted.....I'll get the PDF file from our ad girl tomorrow......
can i upload a pdf file here?
Juliana

[Juliana Ross]

Hi everyone,

I am still working on getting a PDF file of the price list for you.

I talked with the boss lady and she says I can set up our members here with a 25%discount on stuff (the VIP discount excludes: process only on film, b&w contact sheets, b&w custom prints and prints larger than 12x18)

pdf coming soon as I catch the advertising chick

juliana

[ACTUAL iMAGE]

I've had great luck with EZPrints.com. You can choose matte or glossy--same price and same processing time. Good luck!