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Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

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  #11  
Old 04-22-2016, 04:46 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by marameo View Post
I am considering buying an old flagship camera like the 1Ds2 for the jpg out of camera is said to be really good and that would let me skip the raw conversion also.

A regular AdobeRGB jpeg from the 1Ds2 is ~11Mb while raw is ~15Mb; it seems like the jpeg is a 8 bit kind of raw!

I wonder if I lower contrast (-2) and saturation (-1) and set the sharpening to a reasonable amount (+4) on camera will I get a good starting point for post production in Photoshop?

Thanks
1ds mkII is a great camera, but there is no such thing as "great JPEG" when compared to the endless possibilities that you have with a RAW file. Also, deluding yourself that you can skip the retouching because the JPEGs are so great can't be good in the long run, or at all, and you can just use the Canon RAW converter to get the exact settings your camera used when creating JPEGS, so you can have your cake and eat it, too.

Jpegs are for event shooting, news reporting, sending samples to clients, and any sort of shooting where the delivery time is more important then the end result. Not that you can't retouch a JPEG, you can, but RAWs are so much cleaner and you don't have to deal with all sorts of artifacts(you can save a compression free JPEG, I just don't think cameras even give that option?).

P.S. I'll repeat this for the n-th time, but do not sharpen or add drastic contrast in your raw conversion, you do that on top of your layer stack. It is much harder to clone on a super-sharp file, same goes for dnb, liquify will soften areas considerably, healing will produce artifacts etc.

Last edited by skoobey; 04-22-2016 at 04:54 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2016, 06:08 PM
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marameo marameo is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Is Canon DPP good for RAW conversion to Neutral 16-bit tiff?
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2016, 09:37 PM
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John Wheeler John Wheeler is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

I would suggest double checking the basics

1) Reset Camera Raw Defaults as you may have accidentally set the defaults to something you do not want. Do this per the image below

2) Reset Photoshop Preferences (may be overkill yet it would catch any other erroneous settings whether user error or software glitch

3) Note that the JPG or TIFF that comes into ACR needs to have an embedded profile. If you are taking the image OOC this should not be an issue. Setting ACR to Adobe RGB will be the color space that is sent to PS after ACR. If ACR sees a non-Raw file with no embedded profile, I believe it assumes it is sRGB. That would make Adobe RGB image desaturated if interpreted as sRGB. I bring this up because the image you posted to the forum did not have an embedded profile so if was anything other than sRGB, the colors will be interpreted as sRGB and off.

BTW, I do not believe that #3 is your issue because I tested out your image and this does not match

I got a pretty good color match just by shifting the Red slider in the Color panel to the left a bit. That is why I suggested #1

Not sure any of these will solve your issue yet thought they were worth mentioning.
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2016, 01:52 AM
klev klev is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Is Canon DPP good for RAW conversion to Neutral 16-bit tiff?
Canon's names can seem a little misleading at times, but yeah it does a decent job. It doesn't offer as much control as capture one or lightroom, and it's specific to canon files. 16 and 8 bit tiffs will look identical in color balance.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2016, 08:52 AM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Is Canon DPP good for RAW conversion to Neutral 16-bit tiff?
Try it, I believe it is, if matching the JPEG is your goal (I think it can be done in CR1 and LR as well, but this is a more direct approach).
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  #16  
Old 04-25-2016, 02:00 PM
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marameo marameo is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
(you can save a compression free JPEG, I just don't think cameras even give that option?).
As I said ealier, a jpeg (8 bit) from the 1Ds2 is 70% the size of a raw (12 bit); would that suggest it is a compression free file?

Anyway, I will stick with the Canon RAW converter although a 100MB tiff is huge to handle.
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  #17  
Old 04-25-2016, 09:54 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by marameo View Post
As I said ealier, a jpeg (8 bit) from the 1Ds2 is 70% the size of a raw (12 bit); would that suggest it is a compression free file?

Anyway, I will stick with the Canon RAW converter although a 100MB tiff is huge to handle.
Probably not, it just doesn't make sense to make it that large, but it could be(and it's 8 bit, so it just MIGHT be). Doesn't really matter, because if you're going to retouch a JPEG, you're probably going to do just a bit of clean up, an for that it makes no difference if it's compression free or not, you really need to push the file to get the benfits.

High school graduations, birthdays, weddings, casual portraits, sports and other events> noone cares if it's a raw file, if the JPEG looks great, use it.

Campaigns, catalogues, magazines, other publications and advertising> raw is a must.
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  #18  
Old 04-26-2016, 12:32 PM
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marameo marameo is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
Campaigns, catalogues, magazines, other publications and advertising
Is this a lossy VS lossless issue or more-bit VS less-bit or kind of both?

Would I suit well those categories If I retouched on a neautral 8 bit tiff from the Canon raw converter?
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  #19  
Old 04-26-2016, 01:01 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

It's all of the above.

Yes, you would. As long as you can't tell it's all good. 8bit vs 16bit difference is noticeable when you start pushing the tones, as you get more transitions.
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  #20  
Old 04-26-2016, 08:00 PM
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John Wheeler John Wheeler is offline
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Re: Importing Adobe RAW Color Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by marameo View Post
I am considering buying an old flagship camera like the 1Ds2 for the jpg out of camera is said to be really good and that would let me skip the raw conversion also.

A regular AdobeRGB jpeg from the 1Ds2 is ~11Mb while raw is ~15Mb; it seems like the jpeg is a 8 bit kind of raw!

Thanks
Thought I would jump in with some information/answers on the ~15MB Raw vs the 11MB JPEG on the Canon 1Ds Mark II camera body.

The raw size is a lossless compressed raw file and contains all the information (actually a tad more) than what is in the ~100Mb TIFF file.

So first off, comparing quality just by the file size of different formats can be very very misleading. Not a good comparison across formats - not even close.

If you want a more full discussion about Raw vs JPEG, you can check out this link (a post of mine on another forum): http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55734325

Bottom line is that JPEG is 8 bit depth vs the 12 bit raw of the 1Ds MarkII and as well, the JPEG has lossy compression. At high levels of JPEG quality, the luminosity is fairly well maintained and the compression primarily occurs in the chromiance channels and mostly in the dark luminance areas.

Using a wider gamut color space with JPEG can also be problematic as you can also get more banding because you are trying to fit in more color gamut an already smaller bit depth.

JPEG at high quality settings have the least issues if you use sRGB and do not need to make any real adjustments to the image (i.e. pretty much spot on OOC).

-------------Now for the geek stuff on files sizes--------------------------

The 1Ds Markii is a 16.7 Mpixel sensor yet as with most DSLR sensor in is what is called a Bayer Array sensor where those pixels are divided up with 8.3 Mpixels of Green, and 4.15 Mpixels each of Red and Blue. The sensor does not give your RGB at each sensor pixel location.

Each sensor pixel does have 12 bits of resolution which each is 1 1/2 bytes of data.

The raw demosaicing process or a raw processor is where these individual pixel colors are converted algorithmically into 3 pixel colors at each pixel location.

The TIFF RGB format to retain all the bit depth actually uses two bytes (16 bits) of information for each color and each pixel location. So two bytes by three colors is 6 bytes per pixels. Total size is then 16.7 Mpixels x 6 = 100.2 Mbytes.

If you created a 8 bit dept TIFF file instead you would have a 50.1 MByte file.

The JPEG file gets created from this 8 bit version so your 11 MByte JPEG file is compressed down from the 50.1 Mbyte file or to 22% of its original size and that is a lossy format. So you know, you have to be losing some real data even from the 8 bit version from the demosaiced sensor data.

Note that the 11 Mbyte file size is only if you manually set the quality level in the camera to level 10. It actually provides levels of compression all the way down to 1 or extremely compressed. The specifications for file size in the 1Ds MarkII manual are when quoting what fits in a memory card are ~5Mbyte JPEG file because they are assuming a level 8 quality setting for compression. If you get the 1Ds MarkII, unless you want even more compression. You probably have to go into the settings and change it to quality level 10.

------------------------

Now for the Raw size. You start with 16.7 Mpixels at 12 bit depth (1 1/2 bytes). Without any compression, that would take ~25 MBytes to store all the original raw data from the sensor. The ~!5 Mbyte raw file size is after compression down from the 25Mbytes to 60% of the uncompressed size. It does not matter because this is lossless compression and when uncompressed, restores exactly the original data.


Hope this helps in your understanding of file sizes and quality.
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