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Input/Output/Workflow Scanning, printing, color management, and discussing best practices for control and repeatability

imbedded profile

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  #11  
Old 06-11-2004, 01:33 AM
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ljl269 ljl269 is offline
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Thanks Chip. I'm gonna respond in several posts commenting on ur points in order i've researched them the most.

1-'I later learned that double profiling was a common issue', It is possible to double count- apply your monitors profile 1st in nVidia driver & 2nd time in color management.

2-'I have a standard workflow for printing to the printers for which I have profiles".Ofoto, a Kodak site, has no profiles and suggested I adjust nVidia driver so monitor matched the prints.Turning on Color Management for any of 6 printer profiles I have always results in an overall dark shift since printing is a reflective process as compared to monitors which are closer to a transparent medium like slides.In fact, times I've done this I had to use gamma multiplier of ~.7 which makes web pages awful dark.

3-viewing HP's profile 4 my monitor in my nVidia driver , the gamma ( see attachment ) looks like none I've seen. Can ihis be right?

Comments/suggestions/corrections appreciated.
Thanks- bye- Larry
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File Type: jpg Frontier340-NYicc.jpg (82.0 KB, 8 views)
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  #12  
Old 06-11-2004, 02:00 AM
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ljl269 ljl269 is offline
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More re Imbedded

Hi Chip RE#2 & 'Originally, it's the capture device, usually camera or scanner, but it can be converted to any other device profile and saved that way'- R U saying that OUTPUT as well as input device profiles r carried with an indicator of color space(sRGB) & [(R,G,B) values for every pixel]. I suppose if my printer prints 126 on grayscale as red & urs prints it as 18% gray, u could lookup in my profile that I printed it as red and then look up red on ur profile as say pink.So withour my profile u print it as 18% but with knowledge of my profile u print it as pink? Perhaps its used in another way- this is only 1 I could think of.

I'll hae to think about what use my monitor profile would be to anyone but me.

Comments/suggestions/corrections appreciated.
Thanks- bye- Larry
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  #13  
Old 06-11-2004, 07:53 AM
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ljl269 ljl269 is offline
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Playing With Thumbnails

I took the 2 thumbnails and played with them seeing if I could do operations with both & if they have the same affect:

Notice that there is a difference in the profiled & non-profiled versions of GretagMacbethColorChecker even with Color Management OFF. Turning on Color Management & using HP's profile for my CompaqFS740 monitor darkens both & also produces noticable color shifts in both the profiled & non-profiled versions of GretagMacbethColorChecker . The shifts r in squares (2,1), (2,2), (2,6), (3,1), (3,4) but r minimal in the grayscale (row 4) & the greens. The RGB values of all pixels remain the same.

So now I know that imbedded profiles do NOT exempt the image from either visual driver effects (like gamma) or Color Management effects like soft-proofing.

The RGB values of images with imbedded profiles r only changed in the same ways as non-imbedded profiled images- levels, briteness,etc. The RGB values r correct for the image with the imbedded profile but not for the other image- (1,1) should be (114,81,64) but is (129,96,82) in the image without the profile but it may have just been created less accurately.

Comments/suggestions/corrections appreciated.
Larry
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  #14  
Old 06-11-2004, 09:32 AM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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Dude, you are working hard on this one aren't you! While I may not be of much help, I'm confident you will find what you're looking for. Here's my rather lame responses to your responses:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljl269

1-'I later learned that double profiling was a common issue', It is possible to double count- apply your monitors profile 1st in nVidia driver & 2nd time in color management.

That's interesting, makes perfect sense. I'm wondering if I had that problem a while back and didn't know it.

2-'I have a standard workflow for printing to the printers for which I have profiles".Ofoto, a Kodak site, has no profiles and suggested I adjust nVidia driver so monitor matched the prints.Turning on Color Management for any of 6 printer profiles I have always results in an overall dark shift since printing is a reflective process as compared to monitors which are closer to a transparent medium like slides.In fact, times I've done this I had to use gamma multiplier of ~.7 which makes web pages awful dark.

I think you should look in your monitor menu and set it to sRGB and leave the nVidia color management off. Use sRGB color profiles in your editing program and print sRGB... which may be as simple as telling the printer to not manage color. You will have to experiment. Like you say, the print can't match the monitor exactly but keeping everything sRGB should get you close. SRGB is a standard color space for web pages too.

3-viewing HP's profile 4 my monitor in my nVidia driver , the gamma ( see attachment ) looks like none I've seen. Can ihis be right?

It looks like the nVidia color correction dialog is for tuning the display. It seems like it should include a visual tool to aid in making the adjustments. I use Adobe Gamma but you might not have it. It gives you a dialog with grey references (two types) and you adjust brightness and contrast using the controls on your monitor proper; then you adjust a gamma slider in the dialog based on a visual judgement of one of the references; then you can save those settings in a monitor profile.
I'll respond to the other post too.
Good luck.
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  #15  
Old 06-11-2004, 11:37 AM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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OK, next one, this is more technical and there's lots of room for me to explain wrong... just keep that in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljl269
Hi Chip RE#2 & 'Originally, it's the capture device, usually camera or scanner, but it can be converted to any other device profile and saved that way'- R U saying that OUTPUT as well as input device profiles r carried with an indicator of color space(sRGB) & [(R,G,B) values for every pixel]. I suppose if my printer prints 126 on grayscale as red & urs prints it as 18% gray, u could lookup in my profile that I printed it as red and then look up red on ur profile as say pink.So withour my profile u print it as 18% but with knowledge of my profile u print it as pink? Perhaps its used in another way- this is only 1 I could think of.

You just have one profile embedded at any given time and it is either an input profile or an output profile. An input profile is a very specific description of how a camera or scanner see and records color. The CMS needs it to know how the recorded color numbers compare with the internal reference model so it can convert the colors for another device like a monitor or printer. Input profiles are one-way, they are useful only as a source, not a destination. You can convert the embedded profile to an output profile, like sRGB, CMYK, or Adobe RGB (these are all general purpose profiles) which is more versatile. Output profiles are also color recording information specific to hardware devices. They go two ways so they can be used for source or destination conversions. This may have raised more questions than it answered. If you want to learn more of the technical/theoretical stuff, try the book 'Real World Color Management' by Fraser, Murphy & Bunting. The bottom line answer is one embedded profile and it's used by the CMS to render colors similarly on other devices that have their own profiles.

I'll hae to think about what use my monitor profile would be to anyone but me.

You got it. Your monitor profile is only useful to render colors on your monitor using the embedded profiles as a source for conversion. That's why sRGB was invented, it's a general purpose characterization of the average Windows monitor. The problem is, very few people adjust gamma or even know how their monitor is color balanced, plus monitors vary, windows color palettes vary... everything varies. With sRGB its usually possible to render a pleasing image on lots of monitors but don't expect them to match.
I hope this is helpful to you.
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  #16  
Old 06-11-2004, 10:17 PM
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ljl269 ljl269 is offline
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Some On + Some Off Point

1st Some Off Point:
1- I tried to dupe how u post but the QUOTE just contained "Dude" part. I'm new here so maybe u could advise what Gregorian chants u use in ur posts (:
2-Any relation to Bob Hildreth who worked 4 Kodak in Rochester,NY 65-95?
3-I plan to open a Calibration post which is the parent of this 1 so replies that would go deeply into that I'll refrain from.(ala KISS principal)

Now some On Point:
1-'look in your monitor menu and set it to sRGB ' No such animal anywhere that I can find. Ulead CMS says I'm in sRGB but no option to change it. Maybe its set by fact all my profiles relate to sRGB?
2-'tell the printer not manage color' I forgot to say I prin no color. That work goes to Rits(Frontier prts). I have a B&W laser for text.
3-'It looks like the nVidia color correction dialog is for tuning the display. It seems like it should include a visual tool to aid in making the adjustments." THe pic is the driver is their tool & it stinks.
4-' I use Adobe Gamma but you might not have it. ' I dont
5-'It gives you a dialog with grey references (two types) and you adjust brightness and ...then you can save those settings in a monitor profile.' 3 sites have similar tools & my BP,WP, and Gamma agree with all 3. Now I am trying to apply my acid test since I know many (WP, BP,Gamma) combos will play well in 'gray boxe tests' but give outlandish results on real pics.
5-I was questioning if HP's prifile made sense- the gamma ( in previos attachment ) looks like a bent paper clip. It looks like u may even get 2 values of Y for 1 X so it may not even be a math function. That ADD button in driver imports ICC monitor profiles only. But I've never seen any other such profiles.

Any & all replies appreciated. Thanks- Larry
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