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Model usage of photos

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  #11  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:20 AM
txphotog txphotog is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Since this is a retoucher's forum,l let me try to put it into retoucher terms.

1. A model comes to you with a photo done by a photographer you don't know. She wants it retouched to use for her self promotion.

2. There is no contract in writing between the model and the photographer which discusses the limits to which she may use or retouch the pictures (which is normally the case).

3. How much, if any, retouching may you legally do for her in such a situation?
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2010, 10:33 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

I am not a lawyer but I think as a retoucher you can do whatever she/he wants you to do - the responsibility is on the model side.

In some countries copyright law sais that is pretty legal to change original work as long as you will improve it. As I understand you will change something in a better way and you will create new artwork and copyright will be on your side (for this new artwork) as long as you are not employee .. In most countries if you are independent artist paying your tax on your own, copyright belongs to you. If you are employee - copyright belongs to your company ...

But how do you want to prove that your new artwork is better than the previous one if the previous artist will say he/she does not like it?
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  #13  
Old 12-09-2010, 01:21 PM
txphotog txphotog is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
I am not a lawyer but I think as a retoucher you can do whatever she/he wants you to do - the responsibility is on the model side.
That doesn't work very well. If you retouch a picture and the photographer decides to sue, lawyers will almost always include as defendants anyone associated with the issue. My question, broadly put, is "on what criteria can you defend your work as having been legal?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
In some countries copyright law sais that is pretty legal to change original work as long as you will improve it. As I understand you will change something in a better way and you will create new artwork and copyright will be on your side (for this new artwork) as long as you are not employee .. In most countries if you are independent artist paying your tax on your own, copyright belongs to you. If you are employee - copyright belongs to your company ...
I'd be obliged if you could let me know some of those countries. I am not aware of any.

A new copyright would be created only if the retouching was to a standard which created a "derivative work", under US law. And you can't do that without the copyright holder's position.

I don't think we should be discussing "other countries' laws" without specifying which countries those are, since copyright law varies quite a bit among countries.
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  #14  
Old 12-09-2010, 01:34 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

i have found this in the Czech copyright law a few years ago.

I do not see this problem so interesting and I would suggest to you to find a lawyer who will be able to give you more informations and prepare special contracts so you do not have to be afraid anymore.

As I wrote earlier everything is about the contract between you and your client.
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  #15  
Old 12-09-2010, 02:07 PM
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Godmother Godmother is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by txphotog View Post
That doesn't work very well. If you retouch a picture and the photographer decides to sue, lawyers will almost always include as defendants anyone associated with the issue.
If you don't use it/display it, you have nothing to worry about.

Does it answer your question?

It's up to you if you do it or not. I've never done work for a model without written consent from the photographer.
And I will never do it either.
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  #16  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:25 PM
txphotog txphotog is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
I do not see this problem so interesting and I would suggest to you to find a lawyer who will be able to give you more informations and prepare special contracts so you do not have to be afraid anymore.
I'm not afraid, I'm a photographer, not a retoucher (although I do retouch my own work.)

The question is one that should be of interest to models and retouchers who want to understand what the legal boundaries are on what they can do. Assuming they are not in the Czech Republic, which is true of most people.

Last edited by txphotog; 12-09-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:29 PM
txphotog txphotog is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
If you don't use it/display it, you have nothing to worry about.

Does it answer your question?
I don't see how. The whole purpose of pictures for the self-promotion of the model is "display". If you just want to put it in the bottom of your desk drawer and drag it out every Easter to admire, I don't suppose there is a problem. But that's not what models typically do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
It's up to you if you do it or not. I've never done work for a model without written consent from the photographer.
And I will never do it either.
That's probably a wise policy, but it avoids the question when someone wants retouching done, they don't have permission from the photographer, and they want to know what they legally can do without it. Which is my issue.
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  #18  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:44 PM
txphotog txphotog is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
In some countries copyright law sais that is pretty legal to change original work as long as you will improve it. As I understand you will change something in a better way and you will create new artwork and copyright will be on your side (for this new artwork) as long as you are not employee . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
i have found this in the Czech copyright law a few years ago.
This is the relevant section of the Czech copyright statute. I don’t read it at all the same way you do.

Quote:
(3) The author shall have the right to the inviolability of his work, especially the right to grant consent to any alteration of, or other intervention into his work, unless stipulated otherwise by this Act. Where the work is utilized by another person, the utilization may not be executed in a manner that depreciates the value of the work. The author shall have the right of supervision over compliance with this obligation by the other person (author’s supervision), unless ensuing otherwise from the nature of the work or of its utilisation, or unless it is not possible to fairly require of the user to allow the author the exercise of the right to author’s supervision.
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  #19  
Old 12-09-2010, 04:05 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Czech Republic joined European Union in 2004. This is not the identical text which I found a few years ago and not in the czech language.. But still:

"Where the work is utilized by another person, the utilization may not be executed in a manner that depreciates the value of the work."

and:

"The author shall have the right ..."

I am sure there is a diference between "shall" and "must" ...

From my experience if models like photographs once retouched by photographer they do not look for retouchers.

I would be more worry about big companies which are using photographs without any permissions or contract ...
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  #20  
Old 12-09-2010, 04:18 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Model usage of photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by txphotog View Post
I don't see how. The whole purpose of pictures for the self-promotion of the model is "display". If you just want to put it in the bottom of your desk drawer and drag it out every Easter to admire, I don't suppose there is a problem. But that's not what models typically do.



That's probably a wise policy, but it avoids the question when someone wants retouching done, they don't have permission from the photographer, and they want to know what they legally can do without it. Which is my issue.
Godmother is a retoucher and I think she wanted to say if you as a retoucher do not use the photograph you do not have to worry. It means if retoucher does not use the photograph for his/her self-promotion nothing is going happen as model is using the photograph (not a retoucher)
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