Q: Cloning & background

[Jeanmilden1]

I have been using my digital camera for 6 months and working with a very old paint shop version. I just downloaded a newer version for a tryout - but think I will go with photoshop. Anyway, I am a newbie and I know how to clone but it leaves much to be desired. How do you all get that selected area in another photo without it looking like it has been copied. Mine always has parts of the remaining photo in it. Yes, I can smooth it in but it never looks right. Maybe there is a article I can read if someone can point me in that direction. And, I don't understand Mask and layers. Thanks for any information. Jean

[Andrew B.]

Hi Jean. I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about selecting and copying a person or background from one picture to another and it doesn't blend in right??? Or are you using the clone tool within an area on one picture and it's not working right?

Can you post a picture to show us the problem you are having?

[Jeanmilden1]

Andrew, I am having trouble with both. I take lots of pictures of shelter animals and put them on Petfinders - I would like to give them a nice looking background instead of the cages they are in - that is my main problem. Here is a picture I would like to replace the background - and I can't get him out looking professional. Thanks for helping.
Not too sure how to work this but the first picture is the original and I will post the next (Mess) in another post as I don't know how to upload two pictures at once.

[Jeanmilden1]

This is the one I used the clone tool on - I am sort of thinking I am way off base. Jean

[Blacknight]

I think what you're looking for can best be found in a mask, and in Photoshop it's really very easy. Here is a URL for Sarah's Watercolor tutorial, but it explains mask usage very well. I did the attached pic in about a minute using a mask. Once you do it, you'll wonder why you ever thought it was hard!

[Jeanmilden1]

Blacknight, That was Great - just what I am looking to do. I am using Paint Shop Pro Ver.3 from the days of yesteryear! I do have to buy a new program so I guess it will be Photoshop - do you think Elements will do it ok or will I need the 7. Thanks so much for your help - The picture looks great.

[Blacknight]

I think Big Al uses PSP. There may be others here who do also. I use Photoshop, and am not familiar with elements. Richard Lynch could no doubt answer the Elements question for you. They are both here, if you look under members, and I'm sure would be happy to assist you.

[Andrew B.]

Jean,

I think the photo you posted looks pretty good as is. Were it me, I would not remove the background. I would just remove the three objects sitting on the carpet. And the reason I would leave the carpet is it's pretty adorable to have a little dog looking at you with that look on his/her face, and the carpet there makes it feel almost real. I'm attaching what I would do.

But I have to ask you something. What will the output be. Will this be printed, photocopied, posted on a web page, something else? The output makes a big difference in what kind of photo you want to prepare.

BTW, I did a quick extraction of the dog from the background, and it's not one of the easier photo operations one can do. I'll attach it to the next message in case you want to play with it. I put it on a bright green background so you can easily select the green with the magic wand tool and remove or replace it.

Andrew

[Andrew B.]

And here it the extracted dog on a green background.

[pstewart]

Andrew, nice job with the extraction tool. That is not the easiest filter to use for a beginner, however, so maybe your first suggestion is the better one in this case. I too like the rug.


Jean:

As far as which program to buy, Photoshop is worth the money in the long run because it can do so much.

As far as dogs in cages, I see nothing wrong with picturing them that way... for a web page, I'm guessing. When I see an animal in a cage I am more likely to want to save it and give it a nice home. It makes the animals look like they need a home...and they DO! My sister-in-law runs a shelter also and she posts pics of her animals all the time...sitting in their cages or on the floor or anywhere they happen to be. They get adopted just the same, so I would not worry about "presentation" in this case...really.

Phyllis

[Jeanmilden1]

Originally posted by Andrew B.
And here it the extracted dog on a green background.

That looks great and I have been trying since Sunday to do this - I have now deleated Paint shop and need to try Elements - Guess I will have to find an elements person to ask - if I can do it or just get the Photoshop$$ - Why don't you do a 101 class on this. How do you extract the darn thing? I know how to get rid of the items in the picture I just wanted to know how to extract. Thanks.

[Jeanmilden1]

Jean:

As far as which program to buy, Photoshop is worth the money in the long run because it can do so much.

As far as dogs in cages, I see nothing wrong with picturing them that way... for a web page, I'm guessing. When I see an animal in a cage I am more likely to want to save it and give it a nice home. It makes the animals look like they need a home...and they DO! My sister-in-law runs a shelter also and she posts pics of her animals all the time...sitting in their cages or on the floor or anywhere they happen to be. They get adopted just the same, so I would not worry about "presentation" in this case...really.

Phyllis [/B][/QUOTE]
Phyllis, Thanks for the tips about the animals - These pets go on Petfinders.org. I Mainly wanted to know how to extract - I can remove items from a picture but I can't extract. What would you do with this picture of a very laid back cat named Romeow! I am just trying to learn so could I take out the background and make him look like he is lounging over something else? Thanks,

[Jeanmilden1]

I looked at Sarah's tututorial and am lost - I need Photoshop for that. How did you do that Picture in one minute? Did you use a mask? If you know of a newbie tutorial on extracting like you did , please let me know. And, did you spray paint that background?
Sorry for all the questions - I know I have to start at the begenning but this one function I want to do now if I can. Thanks, Jean

[tyeise]

Is this the sort of idea you had?

I used PSP8 beta, and promoted the cat to a layer. Then I removed the background, added another layer behind that one, added a gradient, then added a bit of noise so it would match the rest of the image. I also removed the seam from the shoulder so that it would look like he was draped over a cloth instead.

Tyeise

[Stephen M]

A link to further links on masking/extraction:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binar...V_links.html#M


Stephen Marsh.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/

[Jeanmilden1]

Tyese, That came out perfect and Yes, it is just what I am trying to learn how to do. Thanks so much. - I will try the links Stephen left for learning.

[Jeanmilden1]

Stephen, The links are what I am looking for and will let you all know when I can do this on my own. Thanks to all for their kind replies and patience.

[tyeise]

Glad I could be of help, Jean. PSP 8 has a new background eraser. It takes a little practice getting just the right settings, but I used that for the majority, and then cleaned up the rest with the regular eraser.

Tyeise

[Andrew B.]

Originally posted by Jeanmilden1
How do you extract the darn thing? I know how to get rid of the items in the picture I just wanted to know how to extract. Thanks.

Hi Jean. I posted the dog with green background so you could use whichever program you have to delete the green, then you could put any background behind there you want, and see if you really think it's better than carpet. But it looks like you decided to go the extraction route so here are some initial tips.

1. Doing a good extraction is not based on using an Adobe product. Even with Photoshop is can be very difficult to extract hair, and impossible to do a good job if you don't have some practice at it.

2. If one wants all the tools at hand needed for extractions, Elements doesn't hack it. The software must have direct access to channels to do this, and that's not Elements.

3. One of the most important things to know before trying extractions is the nature of pixels where your object meets the background. For example, if you have someone wearing a tan hat with a blue sky behind, the pixels at the extraction point will each be a mixture of blue and tan. And when the background is removed, there will be a bluish fringe around the hat that will stand out against a different background. This can be dealt with, but it can be confusing to see for the first time.


I went out on the web and found a few tutorials that cover different ways to extract. The reason I am not writing up a method myself is one method does not work on all pictures, and these links should give you a good overview and some good practice. If you run into problems with the tutorials, feel free to ask for help.

Tutorials

Here is an article about tools and techniques for removing backgrounds. The one that covers Photoshop techniques is probably the best one to read. Much of it can be done with other software too.

http://graphicssoft.about.com/librar.../aa000607a.htm

I picked this next one because it seemed like a good overview of masking in channels. I also like the way it shows the final messy result that sometimes happens, and explains how to clean it up. Although, I think there are easier ways to clean it, and so I guess no tutorial is perfect.

http://dancingbones.org/xena/tips/te...s/masking.html

Anyway, this should get you off to a good start.

[Jeanmilden1]

Andrew,
Really appreciate your advice and Glad you told me about Elements because someone else said It could do about 90% of what Photoshop 7 would do - with his book.
As far as the Rug goes - I just picked a picture and really wasn't particular what was in it. However, you did a great job - I printed it out and it looks beautiful (I printed the one you sent me with the taupe background). I take lots of pictures of animals and like the one I am attaching I think the cat is pretty but don't like the bars behind. Some of these pictures go on our local access tv channel - they really don't care about the bars but , my objective was to learn how to remove the background or extract the main object. Thanks for the Tutorials. Tyeise did a great job with the laid back Cat. This little guy I am attaching is falling asleep . Right now I am using my old paint shop ver 3 - deleated Paint ShopPro and tried to download Elements - but don't have enough room - So now I need a computer plus photoshop 7 - Maybe I can make a deal - new computer if they lanyappe photoshop!lol
I don't have a tool for removing that green background - by the way - all the fur on my little doggie came out perfect so you did a great job. Have a Great Weekend -

[Andrew B.]

>>Glad you told me about Elements because someone else said It could do about 90% of what Photoshop 7 would do - with his book.<<

Ah, that's right. Richard Lynch found ways to add features to Elements. I'll have to ask him what kind of interface he can put on Elements channels. Maybe it will be enough. I'll check.

>>I printed it out and it looks beautiful (I printed the one you sent me with the taupe background).<<

I think someone else did the taupe one. I posted a green one and a rug one.

>>I don't have a tool for removing that green background - by the way<<

Turns out I made a big mistake. With that green background and nothing else green in the picture, I assumed it would be easy to select and remove. I just tried and it is not. The green merged so well with the partially transparent fur pixels that its fringing with simple extractions. If you still need one with a transparent background, I still have the original extraction I made.

Anyway, good luck with the tutorials.

...Andrew

[tyeise]

If you're used to PSP, why don't you download the trial version of their newest version? You'd be amazed at what you see - I doubt you'd think its the same program. They have really added so much to it!

If you download the beta version of 8, it's still a little buggy, and not everything works perfectly yet. But it would give you an idea of all the wonderful tools it has.

Tyeise

[Jeanmilden1]

Andrew, Thanks for checking with Richard about elements. And, Danny Raphael is the one who sent me the cat with the taupe background - so did blacknight - Geeeee so many nice folks trying to help I can't remember all their names.



(( With that green background and nothing else green in the picture, I assumed it would be easy to select and remove. )) - By selecting I am assuming you mean like a lasso tool tracing and then copying to a new color background? Have the feeling that is not what you mean. I am attaching a picture of the cat with the bars and this is about what I can do - sorry to have to post this
But this shows about what I can do. - I will read all the information - everyone sent

[Jeanmilden1]

Originally posted by tyeise
If you're used to PSP, why don't you download the trial version of their newest version? You'd be amazed at what you see - I doubt you'd think its the same program. They have really added so much to it!

If you download the beta version of 8, it's still a little buggy, and not everything works perfectly yet. But it would give you an idea of all the wonderful tools it has.

Tyeise

--
Tyeise, I have Ver 3 of Paint Shop from 1992 - and it is sooo very different that I decided to go with Photoshop since there is more written information for I can access. I would have to start all over again anyway with the new Version of PSP.
Jean - I have Your Rendention of the Cat on my board and sent it to the shelter workers and they were amazed at what you can do. - Well, Don't know how long it will take me to get there - it would be much easier to go to a class. Have a Great Weekend

[winwintoo]

Hi all, I've had to give up on PhotoShop 6 since I've moved to OSX and PS6 won't run under OSX except in "Classic" mode and that causes me big problems.

I downloaded PS Elements 2 this morning and am seeing if it will work for me. So far it's done everything I wanted, but I hadn't noticed that there is no direct access to channels (I rarely used them anyway) but when I found that there was no "layer mask" I became a bit concerned - I used layer masks all the time.

This doggie picture got me thinking, so I tried to see if I could "fake" a layer mask and it turns out it's very simple.

I won't bore you with the details, but if anyone wants to know, just ask.

Here's my effort with this little doggie. I'm not that thrilled with the background - it always seems to me that he's levitating but I managed to extract him from the original background and that's what I was trying to do

Take care, Margaret

[tyeise]

Here's your kitty without the bars, using the clone tool. :-)

Tyeise

[winwintoo]

I couldn't resist trying with the kitten too. Jean, you were almost there - it's not hard, just takes a bit of practice.

Take care, Margaret

[winwintoo]

I guess I should have attached the image

M

[Andrew B.]

Jean,

>>(( With that green background and nothing else green in the picture, I assumed it would be easy to select and remove. )) - By selecting I am assuming you mean like a lasso tool tracing and then copying to a new color background? Have the feeling that is not what you mean.<<

Well, the one I had in mind was Magic Wand. I thought you would just be able to click anywhere on the green and it would select everything green. Didn't work.

>>I am attaching a picture of the cat with the bars and this is about what I can do

Were it me, I would not extract this. I'd do the same thing Tyeise did and use the clone tool to copy adjacent parts of the picture over the bars. This is probably the most natural look without bars.

Andrew

[jeaniesa]

Jean,

I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but you might want to check out this challenge from a while back. I submitted a picture of my two cats that I wanted to extract from the background and there were quite a few submissions with different ways of doing it - along with explanations of course. You might want to find a few submissions that you particularly like and see how they were done.

Hope this helps a bit.

Jeanie