masking and rotating questions

Jerryb · #1 10-20-2009, 08:24 AM

hi,
I hope this is the correct forum for these questions and thank you for any help you can give

1. the first 2 questions related to this tutorial which i am trying to help a person who has cs 4 , (i only have cs1) . the tutorial in question
http://www.rnel.net/tutorial/Photoshop/12838

2. the first question is more so for myself.... about layer mask and vector mask . now I understand about layer mask and to my understanding vector mask is used in those situations where you want very precise selections lilke maybe using the pen tool to select .... now in the tutorial, he uses vector mask.. the way he using the vector mask wouldn't the layer mask work just as well?

3. now ran into a problem using the vector mask on the temple 2 layer
a. the first instance of using the vector mask on the textured paper worked fine....
b. however when applying the vector mask to temple 2 did not work right.
instead of blocking out the bottom part of the temple, what we see is just a black blob on the temple and also it does not appear on the white vector mask thmbnail ...we get that result on both my cs1 and his cs4 ... so wonder what wrong... note: if i use a regular white layer mask i'll get the correct results....

4. this is trouble shooting question... on his cs 4, when he rotates temple 2 object ... it will some time leave a 2nd or 3rd duplicate temple 2 behind on the same layer!! it a intermittant problem... doesn't do it all the time but enough to cause problems.. smiling...
now he has 2 gigs of ram, and good nevdia graphic card...had him do a little cleanup and shut down down all startup programs but the issue remains... any idea on this one.. i have search the net and and adobe forum but haven't found anything related... could this be a bug with his cs 4 on his specific system?

mjmdigital · #2 10-20-2009, 06:03 PM

They look like layer masks, maybe he just used the wrong term. or maybe he is using a vector mask, But I would use layer masks i think it would be easier that way.

Jerryb · #3 10-20-2009, 06:19 PM

hi,
thank you for replying... my thoughts that in the tutorial the way he used them it wouldn't make any difference if layer or vector.. but i am novice was wondering if there was something special about the vector mask in the tutorial the way it was used that i wasn't aware of...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjmdigital

They look like layer masks, maybe he just used the wrong term. or maybe he is using a vector mask, But I would use layer masks i think it would be easier that way.

mjmdigital · #4 10-20-2009, 06:22 PM

To be honest i dont use vetor masks much, so hopefully some one will respond with a better answer than i can.

Der_W · #5 10-21-2009, 04:45 AM

The advantage of vector masks towards pixel masks is that layer masks are vectors (oh my gosh ^^), that means you can tweak your control points at any time and resize them to whatever size you want. Another benefit is, that the size compared to a pixel mask is much smaller (a pixel mask usually takes the size of one channel or a third of the original image).
The disadvantages are, that you can not brush into them, neither can you blur them (okay, works on CS4 with the masks panel, but its only in full steps), sharpen them or run any filter at all on them. They can not (again, just in CS4 but then globally) hide a pixel to 50% or so and therefore are bad for not fully opaque objects.

Does that help? :-)

Quantum3 · #6 10-21-2009, 06:22 AM

Vector masks aren't so useful unless you're trying to do some graphic desing, which's better Illustrator for that. vector masks work exactly the same than layer masks except that you control the mask by moving the anchor points you created with the pen tool instead by using the brush. In photography editing, hard edges are not welcomed usually, that's why, when doing some selection with the pen tool it's converted to a normal selection at the end.

Jerryb · #7 10-21-2009, 08:16 AM

hi Der W,
thank you for replying..... i definitely need help to understand layer and vector mask....lol .....

i am a little confused... when yo say pixal masks are you saying the selctions in conjunction with a layer mask or vector mask?

also are you saying that both layer and vector mask there both vector?

now the part about brushing into them ... confused here... you mentioned you can't, maybe it my point of reference in looking at it..

now i am able to paint into a white vector mask... in the tutorial i was able to do that the first time but when made a vector mask on a 2nd object , in the tutorial, i was not able to do that in fact i had to use a layer mask (instead of a vector mask) in order to accomplish the task of blocking out the bottom part of the tmep2 image......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der_W

The advantage of vector masks towards pixel masks is that layer masks are vectors (oh my gosh ^^), that means you can tweak your control points at any time and resize them to whatever size you want. Another benefit is, that the size compared to a pixel mask is much smaller (a pixel mask usually takes the size of one channel or a third of the original image).
The disadvantages are, that you can not brush into them, neither can you blur them (okay, works on CS4 with the masks panel, but its only in full steps), sharpen them or run any filter at all on them. They can not (again, just in CS4 but then globally) hide a pixel to 50% or so and therefore are bad for not fully opaque objects.

Does that help? :-)

Quantum3 · #8 10-21-2009, 08:44 AM

A Layer Mask (LM) is composed by rasterized pixels that hides or show all or part of the layer where the LM is attached to. It works as an Alpha Channel (if you open your channels palette, you will see your mask there) and it's able to modify the transparency of the mask where the LM is attached to from 0 to 255 possibilities of translucency where 255 is opaque (all the layer is shown) and 0 is transparent (where all the layer is hidden). Gray values adds translucency to the layer.

1) Open a pic.
2) Duplicate it and blur it about 150px.
3) Add a LM to the duplicated layer.
4) Paint with a black and soft brush over the LM.

See the result.

Now Vector Masks (VM) cannot do all these things excepts for hidding and showing. Vectors are parametric mathematical process that are not rasterized more than for preview purposes. That's why vectors can be enlarged infinitely without loosing definition and they cannot show translucencies like does the LM. So these are good for making graphic things instead photographic ones. Also, you cannot apply filters to vectors. In Illustrator you can, but the filters but that's another topic.

Hope this helps.

Jerryb · #9 10-21-2009, 09:20 AM

hi quantum 3,
that a good explanation..... and i do understand the part about the layer mask the vector mask ....

and you brought up a intersting pint about the alpha channel never thought about that... i noticed yes it shows up when you add a layer mask but doesn't show up the channel pallet when you add a vector mask.. I can only only assume it because ps designed to show the vector mask under the channal pallet....

so if all you want to do is just reveal or hide and use the black brush... then it makes no difference if you use the layer mask or vector mask? is that correct .. infact it seems unless you have some specific selection procedure involved it better overall to use the layer mask, is that correct way to look at it.?

and that brings up the other issue about a vector mask problem i have., although i think i will use the layer mask instead (since it works) , and that is in the tutorial i was able to successfully use a white vector mask and paint with black brush, however, when applying a vector mask to to another layer in the tutorial it i could not paint with the black brush on the vector mask.... any thought on this... is there limiation on the number of vector mask you can use in document? or is this a glitch of some sort... this problem occurred in both cs1, and cs4 and looks like with a cs2 version also... maybe there something wrong with the tutorial maybe there leaving out some crucial steps.. any comments????? this whole layer and vector mask issue is getting very involved.lollol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

A Layer Mask (LM) is composed by rasterized pixels that hides or show all or part of the layer where the LM is attached to. It works as an Alpha Channel (if you open your channels palette, you will see your mask there) and it's able to modify the transparency of the mask where the LM is attached to from 0 to 255 possibilities of translucency where 255 is opaque (all the layer is shown) and 0 is transparent (where all the layer is hidden). Gray values adds translucency to the layer.

1) Open a pic.
2) Duplicate it and blur it about 150px.
3) Add a LM to the duplicated layer.
4) Paint with a black and soft brush over the LM.

See the result.

Now Vector Masks (VM) cannot do all these things excepts for hidding and showing. Vectors are parametric mathematical process that are not rasterized more than for preview purposes. That's why vectors can be enlarged infinitely without loosing definition and they cannot show translucencies like does the LM. So these are good for making graphic things instead photographic ones. Also, you cannot apply filters to vectors. In Illustrator you can, but the filters but that's another topic.

Hope this helps.

Quantum3 · #10 10-21-2009, 10:11 AM

"Let's go by parts" said Jack the ripper, haha.

- The vector mask is shown in the Paths Palette (window/paths). It's not shown in the Channels palette because vectors are not composed of rasterized pixels.

- There is no difference among showing or hidding the layer with the mask, whichever you use: vector or layer mask. The difference is that vecotor only does that while LM can be adjusted or edited in several ways. Also, vectors can be reshaped very accurately. It's good when doing templates and other designing stuff.

- "use a white vector mask and paint with black brush". Photoshop isn't able to let you paint over vectors whichever version you have (that's a nice charateristic of Illustrator).

Tip: you can turn vectors into selections and viceversa by selectig (making active) the vector/selection and Cmd+Intro/Ctrl+Enter.

Hope this helps

Jerryb · #11 10-21-2009, 10:16 PM

hi quantum3,

ok.... the last part addressed..

- "use a white vector mask and paint with black brush". Photoshop isn't able to let you paint over vectors whichever version you have (that's a nice charateristic of Illustrator).

that one there i am sort of confused on.. because it looks like you can...
or am i overlooking something.......
in the tutorial he using vector mask and he using the black brush and you can see the black on the white thumbnail vector mask ..... i can duplicate that on my cs 1 .... what am I overlooking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

"Let's go by parts" said Jack the ripper, haha.

- The vector mask is shown in the Paths Palette (window/paths). It's not shown in the Channels palette because vectors are not composed of rasterized pixels.

- There is no difference among showing or hidding the layer with the mask, whichever you use: vector or layer mask. The difference is that vecotor only does that while LM can be adjusted or edited in several ways. Also, vectors can be reshaped very accurately. It's good when doing templates and other designing stuff.

- "use a white vector mask and paint with black brush". Photoshop isn't able to let you paint over vectors whichever version you have (that's a nice charateristic of Illustrator).

Tip: you can turn vectors into selections and viceversa by selectig (making active) the vector/selection and Cmd+Intro/Ctrl+Enter.

Hope this helps

Quantum3 · #12 10-21-2009, 10:57 PM

I opened photoshop and it's impossible to paint over a vector mask. When you add a vector mask you can: paint over the layer, not over the VM or, adding a Layer Mask to paint over. So your layer will look with a layer mask attached to it and a vector mask. May be you're confusing that visual thing. But's impossible to paint over a vector mask since the vector is just that. It'¡s like trying to mix oil with water in other terms. Let me know if this helps or send me the tutorial 'cause I don't see nothing related to the problem you have in the first link you posted.

Jerryb · #13 10-22-2009, 10:15 AM

I think your your right...
i was starting to think it was visual perception... hence i don't why the person used the vector mask vice the standard regular mask... .. smiling...

oh well thank you very much for taking the time with me......

oh do you have any suggestion on the issue that my firend is having with his cs4 where as he rotate his object, duplicate object is left behind... it not all the time but sometimes... it doesn't do it consistantly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

I opened photoshop and it's impossible to paint over a vector mask. When you add a vector mask you can: paint over the layer, not over the VM or, adding a Layer Mask to paint over. So your layer will look with a layer mask attached to it and a vector mask. May be you're confusing that visual thing. But's impossible to paint over a vector mask since the vector is just that. It'¡s like trying to mix oil with water in other terms. Let me know if this helps or send me the tutorial 'cause I don't see nothing related to the problem you have in the first link you posted.

Quantum3 · #14 10-22-2009, 11:00 AM

Mmmhhh... Rotating a vector delays th way it's shown. Firstly, rotates the vector and after rotation, the rasterized preview of the vector. That's a normal behavior.

Reading again your first post, itr seems he's duplicating the layer that he's rotating. That cannot be possible. He probably is doing something wrong or misunderstanding PS.

For example, when adding a new vector shape sometimes it's added to an existent vector layer instead a new vector layer but usually happens that PS adds a new vector layer for each new vector added to the thing.

If you can upload a video with the problem you're having would be much more clear.

Mart

Jerryb · #15 10-22-2009, 11:58 AM

hi,
it a selection,, he selects the object from one file and then copies and paste into the main file he working with...... now not sure if he using the pen tool (which he then would have to convert to a selection) or just maybe just use one of the regular selection tools... but the object is not vector based ...

not sure if he know how to make a video of what he doing.... been trying to to get him to send me a screen capture.... hopefully when get home from work and online get him to do that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

Mmmhhh... Rotating a vector delays th way it's shown. Firstly, rotates the vector and after rotation, the rasterized preview of the vector. That's a normal behavior.

Reading again your first post, itr seems he's duplicating the layer that he's rotating. That cannot be possible. He probably is doing something wrong or misunderstanding PS.

For example, when adding a new vector shape sometimes it's added to an existent vector layer instead a new vector layer but usually happens that PS adds a new vector layer for each new vector added to the thing.

If you can upload a video with the problem you're having would be much more clear.

Mart

Quantum3 · #16 10-22-2009, 12:32 PM

How it's related the action of copying and pasting with vectors and selections? I don't get the message.

Jerryb · #17 10-22-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

How it's related the action of copying and pasting with vectors and selections? I don't get the message.

it was really seperate issue......

in his cs4 , after the temple 2 selection was pasted into the document the tutorial called for then rotating it... but as it rotates it would sometimes leave behind duplicate object object... to me it wierd that it does that.... i am still having him do some more testing...... see if can find some commonality

Quantum3 · #18 10-22-2009, 02:37 PM

I saw the tutorial, where it says "Vector Mask" is incorrect and it doesn't show the layers palette (it's a must showing how goes the layer structure).

When you rotate the figure and it creates a duplicated, are you sure that duplicated is in the Layer Palette too? Because it could be just a on screen bad rendering by some issue with the video card as someone else said.

Jerryb · #19 10-22-2009, 03:18 PM

hi,
yes am sure.. i had him save the file and then reopen the psd file and sure enough yo see the duplates objects and in the same layer... not different layers...

like i said it really stange to me... i have searched all over the net and on adobe forum boards but haven't found nothing like it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

I saw the tutorial, where it says "Vector Mask" is incorrect and it doesn't show the layers palette (it's a must showing how goes the layer structure).

When you rotate the figure and it creates a duplicated, are you sure that duplicated is in the Layer Palette too? Because it could be just a on screen bad rendering by some issue with the video card as someone else said.

Quantum3 · #20 10-22-2009, 04:10 PM

Why not a keyboard problem?

The only way I found rotating an object with the transform tool which generates a duplicated in a new layer is by Cmd/Ctrl+Alt-T and then rotating. However you say is in the same layer... I think reinstalling PS will solve the problem or maybe, reseting the keyboard preferences inside Photoshop but I think re-installing should work.

Tell us when solved and how you did it.

Jerryb · #21 10-22-2009, 05:18 PM

hi,
it looks like that maybe h is only choice... we look at ram, we looked his cache levels,,, i had him look at several things... and eveyting else appers ok.... what left is reinstalling i guess...

again thank you very much for taking the time with me you were very helpfull you have a good weekend..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

Why not a keyboard problem?

The only way I found rotating an object with the transform tool which generates a duplicated in a new layer is by Cmd/Ctrl+Alt-T and then rotating. However you say is in the same layer... I think reinstalling PS will solve the problem or maybe, reseting the keyboard preferences inside Photoshop but I think re-installing should work.

Tell us when solved and how you did it.

Quantum3 · #22 10-22-2009, 05:32 PM

No problem, mate. If you need something, the comunity is here

Jerryb · #23 10-22-2009, 06:10 PM

hi,,
thank you... i have learned a awful lot since i have signed up from the people here.... and thankfull for that.. it a great board... I just wish i was as skill and as fast as they were...lol..... so i can contribute more.....

but still have a way to go..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum3

No problem, mate. If you need something, the comunity is here

Quantum3 · #24 10-22-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerryb

hi,,
thank you... i have learned a awful lot since i have signed up from the people here.... and thankfull for that.. it a great board... I just wish i was as skill and as fast as they were...lol..... so i can contribute more.....

but still have a way to go..

So do I. I'm even not the same guy than when I joined here. By the way, I just noticed that Nick Nolte and gary Busey looks quite the same. I thought They were the same person since my 14 years old, so Imagine how surprised I'm...