Ghostly image

[Caitlin]

I'm afraid I can't see anything new in the bigger scan. How frustrating. If only we had the technology of 'CSI: Crime Scene Investigations'

[Kraellin]

oh my. there's just a tiny bit more detail in this over the last one. umm, and why is it so bright? deadants, could you ask your english friend if this is fairly representative of the actual picture, especially as far as the brightness is concerned?

flora, my concern over your heavy blur isnt that you're making artistic arguement, but that the program is. with this photo being this faded, a heavy blur would tend to slur what little detail there actually is and possibly alter it. that's all. that that may or may not be the case, i dont know. all of these interpretations are quite fascinating, and yes, i'm beginning to think we're in an episode of a forensic television show

i dont see the basement thing either. like flora says, too many plants and too much lighting, but hey, for all we can REALLY tell, it might be inside the Taj Mahol

i'm working with the new scan, but i'm really not getting much more than before. i do have another possible look for Muriel, one where she's turned her head even more to our left, but it's stretching things, i'm afraid. i keep trying different filter combinations and contrasts and so on, but nothing more is really coming out so far. the plants on the right do seem to be true. the faucet still seems correct and the label over it. i think i can even make out some bit or ornate work above the faucet label, but it's pretty faded, so not real sure. the item on the far left does seem to be a bench and that 'planter' on the right of joan's head does seem to be a planter or large basket.

if i can get a good image out of this, i'll post it later on.

K.

[Duv]

Having looked at the picture some more and doing a little more research, I'm convinced the picture is exactly as Flora says. I now suggest that is not a Pot Belly Stove but a large garden urn. The highlight on the bottom right of the tub, the way the light falls on the childrens bodies plus the shadow detail under the right side of the tub and under the bench suggests a high noon sun slightly forward and to the right of the picture. I think this picture may also be from a wealthy family as least from what I gleaned from this historical note. All very interesting and seemingly plausible.

"In 18th century France, tubs were actually sometimes placed in the gardens of wealthy landowners as depicted in this antique zinc model. When they were drained, the water fed the vegetation.

Legend has it that later, luxury homes in England built baths that overlooked the gardens surrounding the estate, in rooms that came to be called "garden rooms." They are roughly equivalent to what today might be called a "sun room."

[Ken Fournelle]

I'm with Duv on this one. My contention is that it is taken outside. It is at mid-day, approximately. The lighting on the face and the strong shadows under the "bench" or "ladder" indicate that. Those are plants next to the tub. I also think the object behind the tub is a garden ornament much like those copies of Chinese Pagoda ornaments you can get here in the States.

k

[deadants]

I tend to agree that it was definitely taken outside in a garden. I think what we thought was a pot bellied stove is more likely to be a large flowerpot. Also the palm like leaves could indicate it was in a green house. Having this information, what can be done to give this photo a bit more impact? As Flora rightly alludes to, using artistic license is altering historical fact but in this case I think a certain amount of reconstruction is unavoidable if this photo is to be enhanced.

Kraellin, I will ask Jessica if the scan she emailed me is lighter than the original.


deadants

[deadants]

This might make things a bit clearer on the inside outside theory. I just received an email from Jessica with the following photographs.

looked through some more old photos of that family for urns and I think I found the background--a prosaic alley or courtyard. Note the urn, steps and flowers in these pics, it seemed to be a favourite place to take pictures.

Jessica

[Duv]

Bingo Deadants. Also, not only do I agree with Flora that the pic is outside, I'm pretty sure that there is some pretty neat stuff out there that supports blurring as an excellent way to recover badly pixelated data. Don't ask me where I saw it though.

Cheers
Dave

[Flora]

Sorry to get back to this so late ....

Caitlin,

CSI is incredibly popular over here too!!! I've been watching it from 3 different countries.... Italy, UK and South Africa!!!! (that's where I got the 'forensic team idea...)

Kraellin, Dave, Ken, deadants,

I agree ... Bingo!!! .... one mystery solved!!!

Alas it might be the only one ... at least for me .... I've been working on and off on the new scan (medium and large size) ... and, if possible, I could see even less than before ..... well some of the background has more details ..... but the main subject, the kids, are as elusive as before .... particularly Muriel .... the bits that count of her face are just not there!!!!

Sorry .... I'm posting what I got from the last scan to show what I mean .....

[Kraellin]

i think we've solved the puzzle over the item to the far left, the stairs/ladder item. i thought it was a bench, but the corralating pictures seem to say otherwise. as for the 'pot' behind and to the right of joan's head, i'd say we've now got collarborating evidence on that one as well. nice

yup, muriel is the connundrum. i've worked and reworked this thing and still cant definitively say for sure. i apply one technique and i get the face one way and then do another attempt and see something completely different. i shld post a series of pics to show you, but i might overload the site at this point

deadants, any additional info you can get from the originator would be useful. also, if the original photo is truly being represented in that latest scan, we may just be out of luck. on the other hand, perhaps she'd be willing to actually send you the original and let you scan it? it might turn up something else.

K.

[Kraellin]

here's a VERY speculative other look at this thing. i'd almost always seen her right arm (muriel's) as being down like her left arm seems to be. but on working on this again, i saw something a bit different. what if her arm is up, cocked so that her elbow is on the tub rim and her hand up against her head?

also, i found something new in the pic a few days ago, but hadnt posted about yet. there is an insect wing and leg that appears to have been impressed into the photo at some point. it's not part of the original photo; it's an insect that got actually got onto the photo and died there and left an impression of its wing and leg. i've marked it in this upload, along with the muriel parts i mentioned.

amazing what we all 'see' isnt it

K.

[deadants]

Well it certainly has been a different and interesting exercise. But as Flora points out, the detail in Muriel’s face is just too far-gone to do anything with. But I must say Flora, you have done a great job with the limited information you had to work with and I'm sure if I post your effort on the rootschat forum, Jessica would be pleased to see how far it has come.

Kraellin, I think it will always be a mystery as to the true position of Murial's arms and head. Maybe if we had all that fancy lab equipment the CSI team have, we could tell if she had a birthmark I wonder what it would look like under ultra violet or infra red, would it show any hidden details? I must admit I still can't see the insect but I'll take your word for it.

Hopefully a technique will be available in the future to resolve the hidden detail, I suspect that it would have to be a chemical process on the original photo as digital reproductions would be useless. I don't think raw Photoshop muscle is going to get us much further, short of artistic interpretations.

Anyone who wishes to add some artistic interpretations, go for it. I would be interested to see what could be done. Consider it a challenge.


deadants

[yuppicide]

I don't have anything to offer in regards to helping restore the picture, but I must say reading this whole thing was very interesting. The picture has an eerie feel to it being old and discolored. The stuff you guys have done to the pictures were really good. I especially liked the one Flora did off the new scan. Good work guys.

[deadants]

Well, right location wrong time. Here is Flora's version in the location we think it should be. The scale of the two pictures may be a bit out but you get the idea.

deadants

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by Flora

Sorry to get back to this so late ....

Caitlin,

CSI is incredibly popular over here too!!! I've been watching it from 3 different countries.... Italy, UK and South Africa!!!! (that's where I got the 'forensic team idea...)

And enjoyable except that you are laughing at how implausable the use of technology it is every 5 minutes!

I don't know if anyone has seen Stephen Poliakoff's Shooting the Past. This discussion has reminded me of the series - particularly of the memories and history lingering in images. What a fascinating story this photo could take us on - how did these little girls live, what were their dreams. One child went on to take her own life - what did she dream of that never came true. This photo is really quite haunting and evocative, particually with their little faces and bodies fading away.

Shooting the Past also made you think of the lives of the long gone faces looking out at you from faded images - though of course it was another series where I coudn't help but go 'oh - come on!' at the rather far fetched research discoveries that could be made in a photo archive (working in a film archive myself - I know it just isn't quite that neat!)

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by deadants

Well, right location wrong time. Here is Flora's version in the location we think it should be. The scale of the two pictures may be a bit out but you get the idea.

Fascinating. I think you've got it dead on there.

*edit* cool - I just became a 'senior member'! That wasn't hard!

[Flora]

Hi,

Kraellin,

I usually define myself as a "bloodhound" .... once I get my 'nose' on a 'scent' I follow it to exhaustion ..... ..... but you are a born researcher!!!

deadants,

great idea of merging the pictures .... it really gives us a very clear view!!!!!
If/when you decide to post my 'effort' on the rootschat site, please, tell Jessica I'm sorry I couldn't help more .... but, suddenly, the 'scent' had vanished!!!

yuppicide,

thank you so much for your great comment!!!

Caitlin,

unfortunately I haven't seen that series .... hope to get the chance!!!
Congratulations on your becoming a 'Senior Member' !!!

[Kraellin]

Kraellin,

I usually define myself as a "bloodhound" .... once I get my 'nose' on a 'scent' I follow it to exhaustion ..... ..... but you are a born researcher!!!

flora,

well, that was the kind way of saying it. i call it compulsive to an extreme but thank you

deadants,

most interesting combination and it gives me another idea. oh, and the 'insect' circled in that pic is actually an 'insect wing' and back leg. the rounded back part of the wing is facing left and it tapers down a bit to the right. the 'leg' sticks down from the back and bends to the left. it's circled in that pic. oh, and deadants, did you ever get a reply from the owner about the luminosity/intensity question i asked?

congrats, caitlin

K.

[Kraellin]

alright, like i said, deadants gave me an idea. here's what i did:

i took the tubkids-1 image and made a duplicate image. i turned one of them into a complete negative image. i then combined the two images using the 'arithmetic' feature in paint shop pro, with the 'add' arguement as the combining routine. this produced a very interesting result. sadly, to post here, i had to cut it down in resolution by quite a bit, so a bit of detail is lost, but i think i can now say that muriel's right arm is definitely down into the tub, and not cocked like i had in my last picture. her entire outline seems better in this one, though facial detail is still quite lacking. even the way her head may or may not be cocked or turned is still speculative. but i do like this result.

i do have server space at a remote server if someone wants the uncompressed version.

K.

[Kraellin]

wow. this 'arithmetic' function is great. here's another rendition of the negative image and the tubkids-1 image combined with yet a different arguement; this time with the 'and' arguement. this one is even better than the last!

K.

[Kraellin]

and here's another with the blue and green channels combined from the last image. there's very little compression on this one due to the limited color array.

K.

[deadants]

I started to reply to your comments early on today but it has been a crazy day. Well the arithmetic' function is new to me as I only have Photoshop CS on my Mac. But it has produced some interesting results. I haven't as yet got an answer on the luminosity/intensity question but I will send her a reminder. I have still been playing around with this image and as Caitlan says, it is haunting in a way. I'll probably be still comming back to it this time next year to see if I have learned anything new that I can add to it.

deadants

[Kraellin]

deadants,

yes, the arithmetic function is new to me as well, but it was getting to be a case of when all else fails, read the freaking manual....so i did (well, parts of it) and that led me to the arithmetic tool. i do wish the manual had provided a bit more detail about exactly what they do in that tool, but it did produce some interesting results.

re the luminosity/intensity question, ok, let us know when she replies. that last scan just seems too bright and i just want to check if that's how the actual photo is also.

and yes, i tend to put this one down for a while and then come back to it also. the 'haunting' aspect is true for me as well. there's just something about a good mystery that makes it difficult to walk away from

K.

[Kraellin]

bump!

any more info on this one, deadants?

K.

[deadants]

Hi Kraellin,
Nothing yet. I do hope she hasn't forgot. I will send her a PM on the rootschat forum and jogg her memory.

[Kraellin]

sometimes you just have to walk away from a work and let it simmer.... or learn new techniques and then come back. well, i've been studying and have some new tools so i thought i'd give this one another try. i can now see a bit more and can also say that i have to agree with flora's assessment of muriel. she does seem to be facing to our right with her head tilted down a bit.

i ran this starting as normal with a dupe layer and contrast/brightness applied to darken the whole.

then i ran the fast fix filter plugin to get a bit more detail

then i ran channel mixer to bring out just a bit more.

but then i veered. i saved what i had as a new image and ran it through the polaroid dust and scratch program. i ran this several times concentrating first on the white specs then the black and doing various sizes and detection levels. after the very first pass i got a LOT more detail out of the background, but i didnt save this by itself. instead i kept making more passes and saving over the last ones for a cumulative effect to try to 'find muriel'. as each pass was made it became more and more clear that muriel was as how flora saw here with her gausian blur.

it's still not totally conclusive. there's just too much gone to ever be so, but i think flora had the right of it the only question left is why did i ever think otherwise

Craig

[deadants]

Hi Kraellin,
I must say you are like a dog with a bone with this image. I think this photo is at the extreme end of the photo restoration spectrum. To have resurrected Muriel to this level is an achievement in itself.

I went and had a look for the fast fix filter you mentioned, but it is only available for the Mac in the old OS 9 software, so it won’t work in my version of Photoshop. I hope they upgrade it to OS X standard soon.

I haven’t been around the last few weeks as I have had the flu. When I thought I was over that, I came down with a head cold. I’m now looking for some good cleaning agent for my new 20” Apple widescreen display, as I sneezed and sprayed the monitor. I hate winter.

deadants

[Kraellin]

deadants,

you can find the plugin filter here: http://www.cybia.co.uk/fastfix.htm it lists it for windows and mac but i dont know what versions of the mac it will work for. if you already went to this site, why then, i guess yer out of luck on that one. it really doesnt do anything photoshop cant do already; it just does it all within one filter interface.

hehe, yeah, that was one of the first ones i worked on when i came here and it just bugged me that we couldnt do more with it.

hope yer doin better soon, mate

Craig

[Panpan]

Here's my interpretation of the picture in this fascinating thread.

The left side of the attachment is the original photo (cropped) in the genealogy thread. This is the best copy I think. The right side of the image is slightly retouched to make what I see clearer to you.

First, I was looking for knees. That tub is very small for two little girls, more so with that spigot in the way. Whatever position Joan and Muriel come up with, their knees are going to be up. Also, no matter how limber, they have to change position often to avoid cramping, so creative posture is not surprising.

Second, I think it likely that Muriel's hairdo is similar to Joan's. I assume they're sisters.

That's why I call this an interpretation. I "found" features I expected. They might not be there.

My biggest problem is not Muriel, but Joan's right shoulder. It doesn't quite look right. I thought this might be because Joan is holding her shoulder with the same-side hand, but is this anatomically possible without visibly bending the wrist? The biceps is in the way, but maybe a little girl with thin arms can do this?

[deadants]

Hi Panpan,
I really like the idea of the hand on Joan’s shoulder. I hadn't thought of this till you pointed it out. I would love to see it at a larger size so I can have a good look at your interpretation.

[Panpan]

I now think it's her left hand crossing over; the elbow is behind the knees. Joan is protecting her modesty (or she's just cold).