Photo Restoration - - Ghostly image - Page 3

Caitlin · #31 04-27-2005, 06:16 AM

I'm afraid I can't see anything new in the bigger scan.

How frustrating. If only we had the technology of 'CSI: Crime Scene Investigations'

Kraellin · #32 04-27-2005, 08:50 AM

oh my. there's just a tiny bit more detail in this over the last one. umm, and why is it so bright? deadants, could you ask your english friend if this is fairly representative of the actual picture, especially as far as the brightness is concerned?

flora, my concern over your heavy blur isnt that you're making artistic arguement, but that the program is. with this photo being this faded, a heavy blur would tend to slur what little detail there actually is and possibly alter it. that's all. that that may or may not be the case, i dont know. all of these interpretations are quite fascinating, and yes, i'm beginning to think we're in an episode of a forensic television show

i dont see the basement thing either. like flora says, too many plants and too much lighting, but hey, for all we can REALLY tell, it might be inside the Taj Mahol

i'm working with the new scan, but i'm really not getting much more than before. i do have another possible look for Muriel, one where she's turned her head even more to our left, but it's stretching things, i'm afraid. i keep trying different filter combinations and contrasts and so on, but nothing more is really coming out so far. the plants on the right do seem to be true. the faucet still seems correct and the label over it. i think i can even make out some bit or ornate work above the faucet label, but it's pretty faded, so not real sure. the item on the far left does seem to be a bench and that 'planter' on the right of joan's head does seem to be a planter or large basket.

if i can get a good image out of this, i'll post it later on.

K.

Duv · #33 04-27-2005, 10:20 AM

Having looked at the picture some more and doing a little more research, I'm convinced the picture is exactly as Flora says. I now suggest that is not a Pot Belly Stove but a large garden urn. The highlight on the bottom right of the tub, the way the light falls on the childrens bodies plus the shadow detail under the right side of the tub and under the bench suggests a high noon sun slightly forward and to the right of the picture. I think this picture may also be from a wealthy family as least from what I gleaned from this historical note. All very interesting and seemingly plausible.

"In 18th century France, tubs were actually sometimes placed in the gardens of wealthy landowners as depicted in this antique zinc model. When they were drained, the water fed the vegetation.

Legend has it that later, luxury homes in England built baths that overlooked the gardens surrounding the estate, in rooms that came to be called "garden rooms." They are roughly equivalent to what today might be called a "sun room."

Ken Fournelle · #34 04-27-2005, 10:45 AM

I'm with Duv on this one. My contention is that it is taken outside. It is at mid-day, approximately. The lighting on the face and the strong shadows under the "bench" or "ladder" indicate that. Those are plants next to the tub. I also think the object behind the tub is a garden ornament much like those copies of Chinese Pagoda ornaments you can get here in the States.

k

deadants · #35 04-27-2005, 06:40 PM

I tend to agree that it was definitely taken outside in a garden. I think what we thought was a pot bellied stove is more likely to be a large flowerpot. Also the palm like leaves could indicate it was in a green house. Having this information, what can be done to give this photo a bit more impact? As Flora rightly alludes to, using artistic license is altering historical fact but in this case I think a certain amount of reconstruction is unavoidable if this photo is to be enhanced.

Kraellin, I will ask Jessica if the scan she emailed me is lighter than the original.

deadants

deadants · #36 04-27-2005, 08:04 PM

This might make things a bit clearer on the inside outside theory. I just received an email from Jessica with the following photographs.

Quote:

looked through some more old photos of that family for urns and I think I found the background--a prosaic alley or courtyard. Note the urn, steps and flowers in these pics, it seemed to be a favourite place to take pictures.

Jessica

Duv · #37 04-27-2005, 08:14 PM

Bingo Deadants. Also, not only do I agree with Flora that the pic is outside, I'm pretty sure that there is some pretty neat stuff out there that supports blurring as an excellent way to recover badly pixelated data. Don't ask me where I saw it though.

Cheers
Dave

Flora · #38 04-30-2005, 12:03 PM

Sorry to get back to this so late ....

Caitlin,

CSI is incredibly popular over here too!!! I've been watching it from 3 different countries.... Italy, UK and South Africa!!!! (that's where I got the 'forensic team idea...)

Kraellin, Dave, Ken, deadants,

I agree ... Bingo!!! .... one mystery solved!!!

Alas it might be the only one ... at least for me .... I've been working on and off on the new scan (medium and large size) ... and, if possible, I could see even less than before ..... well some of the background has more details ..... but the main subject, the kids, are as elusive as before .... particularly Muriel .... the bits that count of her face are just not there!!!!

Sorry .... I'm posting what I got from the last scan to show what I mean .....

Kraellin · #39 04-30-2005, 12:12 PM

i think we've solved the puzzle over the item to the far left, the stairs/ladder item. i thought it was a bench, but the corralating pictures seem to say otherwise. as for the 'pot' behind and to the right of joan's head, i'd say we've now got collarborating evidence on that one as well. nice

yup, muriel is the connundrum. i've worked and reworked this thing and still cant definitively say for sure. i apply one technique and i get the face one way and then do another attempt and see something completely different. i shld post a series of pics to show you, but i might overload the site at this point

deadants, any additional info you can get from the originator would be useful. also, if the original photo is truly being represented in that latest scan, we may just be out of luck. on the other hand, perhaps she'd be willing to actually send you the original and let you scan it? it might turn up something else.

K.

Kraellin · #40 04-30-2005, 01:03 PM

here's a VERY speculative other look at this thing. i'd almost always seen her right arm (muriel's) as being down like her left arm seems to be. but on working on this again, i saw something a bit different. what if her arm is up, cocked so that her elbow is on the tub rim and her hand up against her head?

also, i found something new in the pic a few days ago, but hadnt posted about yet. there is an insect wing and leg that appears to have been impressed into the photo at some point. it's not part of the original photo; it's an insect that got actually got onto the photo and died there and left an impression of its wing and leg. i've marked it in this upload, along with the muriel parts i mentioned.

amazing what we all 'see' isnt it

K.

deadants · #41 04-30-2005, 05:49 PM

Well it certainly has been a different and interesting exercise. But as Flora points out, the detail in Muriel’s face is just too far-gone to do anything with. But I must say Flora, you have done a great job with the limited information you had to work with and I'm sure if I post your effort on the rootschat forum, Jessica would be pleased to see how far it has come.

Kraellin, I think it will always be a mystery as to the true position of Murial's arms and head. Maybe if we had all that fancy lab equipment the CSI team have, we could tell if she had a birthmark

I wonder what it would look like under ultra violet or infra red, would it show any hidden details? I must admit I still can't see the insect but I'll take your word for it.

Hopefully a technique will be available in the future to resolve the hidden detail, I suspect that it would have to be a chemical process on the original photo as digital reproductions would be useless. I don't think raw Photoshop muscle is going to get us much further, short of artistic interpretations.

Anyone who wishes to add some artistic interpretations, go for it. I would be interested to see what could be done. Consider it a challenge.

deadants

yuppicide · #42 04-30-2005, 11:47 PM

I don't have anything to offer in regards to helping restore the picture, but I must say reading this whole thing was very interesting. The picture has an eerie feel to it being old and discolored. The stuff you guys have done to the pictures were really good. I especially liked the one Flora did off the new scan. Good work guys.

deadants · #43 05-01-2005, 12:29 AM

Well, right location wrong time. Here is Flora's version in the location we think it should be. The scale of the two pictures may be a bit out but you get the idea.

deadants

Caitlin · #44 05-01-2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flora

Sorry to get back to this so late ....

Caitlin,

CSI is incredibly popular over here too!!! I've been watching it from 3 different countries.... Italy, UK and South Africa!!!! (that's where I got the 'forensic team idea...)

And enjoyable except that you are laughing at how implausable the use of technology it is every 5 minutes!

I don't know if anyone has seen Stephen Poliakoff's Shooting the Past. This discussion has reminded me of the series - particularly of the memories and history lingering in images. What a fascinating story this photo could take us on - how did these little girls live, what were their dreams. One child went on to take her own life - what did she dream of that never came true. This photo is really quite haunting and evocative, particually with their little faces and bodies fading away.

Shooting the Past also made you think of the lives of the long gone faces looking out at you from faded images - though of course it was another series where I coudn't help but go 'oh - come on!' at the rather far fetched research discoveries that could be made in a photo archive (working in a film archive myself - I know it just isn't quite that neat!)

Caitlin · #45 05-01-2005, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadants

Well, right location wrong time. Here is Flora's version in the location we think it should be. The scale of the two pictures may be a bit out but you get the idea.

Fascinating. I think you've got it dead on there.

*edit* cool - I just became a 'senior member'! That wasn't hard!