Ghostly image

[deadants]

Hi Guys, This photo I’m posting is a real head banger.

I have been doing a bit of volunteer restoration work on a Genealogy forum. So there are some great old photos that people post for me to attempt to repair. Occasionally someone will post a picture that is, well almost beyond recovery, at least that is what I thought until I seen what was being achieved on this forum. I have had a go at this one but I only seem to be able to highlight the ghostly figures a little bit by selecting them and adjusting the levels.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as this sort of photo is being posted a fair bit.

Here’s a link the forum where I have been attempting to learn as I go.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...ard,298.0.html

deadants

[Caitlin]

Hi deadants, what a great forum - and a challenging photo!

Do you have access to a higher resolution copy? I tried trimming the photo (just to make it a quick attempt) and pulling out the blue channel which seemed to have the most information, but mostly what I get is a whole lot of jpg noise.

It's hard to tell what's possible at this low resolution, but I think most of it will just have to be painstaking retouching work with clone, heal etc.

ps. There is supposed to be another child in there?? I'll be really impressed if someone manages to pull that out of the picture!

[deadants]

Hi Caitlin,
Well the second figure eluded me for a while but I finally saw her on the left.

Unfortunately this is the only photo I was given so it’s a ‘go with what you got situation’. I will ask her if she can rescan it an send me a larger copy, but as my previous post says, most of these people have little knowledge of scanning or digital graphics at all, so it can be a bit frustrating at times. Anyway, here’s my attempt, poor as it is.

deadants

[Kraellin]

most interesting.... and i'll tell you why in a bit.

caitlin's right. a better scan would be quite helpful. in fact, on photos like this, you want to scan in the very highest possible setting, even if you end up with a 75 meg picture. the higher the better.

also, ask your friend to make sure the scanner bed glass is perfectly clean. this can make a big difference at times, and on this one, you want every possible data bit coming through correctly.

ok, now for the interesting bit. working with deadants 2nd attachment, i noticed something which didnt quite look right to me. the girl on the left seems ok, but the person on the right seems dis-proportionate to the tub they are both ostensibly in. so, i think what you've got here is something of a rare bird. it's a hack. but it's not a digital hack. it's a photo/darkroom hack. the person on the right was placed into the shot AFTER the shot. now, bear in mind that that photo is so deteriorated, that i could well be wrong. so, this is only a guess. there are a couple of other clues to this, but again, that photo is so far gone, that those other clues could just be deteriorated film and not clues at all. still, every time i look at this photo, it just doesnt quite look right. cute.

K.

[Sean2]

I am definitely going to have to get my glasses checked!!

Here is my "hack" with a little photo magic for the face. however, I saw the left child with arms over the tub (elbows leaning on it so to speak). Anyway, I missed the cat's face, so, i expect i have this one wrong too

Anyway, here it isssss

Sean

[deadants]

Hi Kraellin,
Yes, I totally agree about the scanning to maximum size, I have asked her to rescan it so I can have a good look at the detail. Your theory of the photo being doctored may be correct but I thought I could see her knees tucked up in front of her.

Do you think this may be a case of artistic license is taken to recreate from scratch

deadants

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by Sean2

Here is my "hack" with a little photo magic for the face.

Oh - for a minute there I was stunned to see the other little girls face, and was wondering what you had done to bring it out, but is that 'magic' a bit of creative addition??

[deadants]

Originally Posted by Caitlin

is that 'magic' a bit of creative addition??

No magic about it. She was always there. You just have to look at the original for a while. If you clink on this link below you can see her original post and that's what I was looking at.

deadants

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...html#msg196270

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by deadants

No magic about it. She was always there. You just have to look at the original for a while. If you clink on this link below you can see her original post and that's what I was looking at.

deadants

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...html#msg196270

Ah - but I think Sean's version has the detail of eyes, nose and mouth that isn't appearing elsewhere?

[deadants]

I'm confused, whose Sean

Sorry I now know who Sean2 is, Thathat's wat happens when your doing three things at once.

[deadants]

Originally Posted by Sean2

I am definitely going to have to get my glasses checked!!

Here is my "hack" with a little photo magic for the face. however, I saw the left child with arms over the tub (elbows leaning on it so to speak). Anyway, I missed the cat's face, so, i expect i have this one wrong too :

Sean

Hi Sean,
Wow that's a completley different perspective on the second girl. It's funny how everyone sees different things in these photos.

deadants

[Caitlin]

Actually deadant that link to the original image did help - though the version you have posted here is bigger (file size wise) I think the second compression may have added a lot of extra jpg artifacting. That's the big problem with JPG - everytime you save you add rubbish

I had another go - now I can see that knee as well I think! In fact the second girl is starting to become reasonable clear as well (Ain't photoshop great!!)

[deadants]

I think that's the Tub rolled edge at the back. If I can get a really good scan from the owner maybe we can have a decent look.

I agrre with you about jpeg artifacts. They make great for emails but nightmare for restoration.

deadants

[Kraellin]

deadants,

i've been studying this pic for a while and i took what you said about the knees being tucked up and you may be right. that does explain some of what i'm seeing. dont know

i've also been trying different filters and effects and so on and i believe i've come up with yet another version of the girl on the right. interesting that we all are seeing her in different ways. also, i dont see the evidence for sean's version, though, the evidence for ANY way is pretty scant.

i'm including an outline pic and without the outline. see if you can see what i'm seeing without the outline.

also, i'm pretty sure that dark smudge on what appears to be the top left part of her head is not actually part of her head, but rather some sort of deterioration mark. it could just be the hair color went bad on the film there too, since it does seem to trace fairly true to what her head form seems to be.

shld be quite interesting to get a better scan and see what this really looks like

K.

[deadants]

Hi Kraellin,
Gee, this photo has more twist and turns after everyone has a look. I think whichever position the left girl is in, a heck of a lot of artistic license is going to be used. Did you use a pencil tool and graphic tablet to trace around the edges?

The owner of the picture emailed last night asking me how high to scan the photo, so hopefully in the next day or two I may have something we can have a good look at.

Getting away from the girls for a bit, is there any ideas on what that thing on the right in the background is?

deadants

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by deadants

Getting away from the girls for a bit, is there any ideas on what that thing on the right in the background is?

You mean behind Joan? Looks like it might be a pile of towels/sheets/laundry? I wonder could they be outside on a veradah? (Just based on the plant in the other corner)

[deadants]

Towels and sheets would make sense. I think the objet on the left is some sort of table or trestle.
I don't know whether it's inside or outside, but the owner of the photo lives in England so if it's outside it would probably be mid summer. Living where I do, anything below 19 degrees C is nippy.

deadants

[Kraellin]

yup. this one is a toughy and definitely interested in seeing if a better scan will bring out more.

btw, i didnt even include the other view i thought maybe was there. in your reddish image you posted earlier, i could also see the girl in question with her head turned to her right, looking to our left, with her right hand up in front of her face.

yes, i just penciled in that outline to show what i thought i was seeing in the un-penciled image. it's just a rough sketch to guide you where to look in the other image.

no doubt, if we do get a better scan, we'll see the real image is the girl with her head underwater or something

oh, and what did you do to get that reddish image you did?

K.

[deadants]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

oh, and what did you do to get that reddish image you did?

All I did was select the rough outline of the girls and look at the levels histogram and just darkened the levels of the selection. Nothing fancy, just a quick highlight trick.

deadants

[Flora]

Hi,

deadants,

Welcome to RP!

Just to stir a bit more confusion , here is what I saw in your picture...
in my opinion the girls are in an outdoor tub (could be in some South Mediterranean country (or some exotic part of the world...). At the sides of the tub I made out only plants (some long leafed(? did I say that right?)) .... and I think that the 'feature between the girls' heads is an ornate outdoor wall water tap....

Muriel seems to concentrate on something hidden in the tub or to be sulking .... and, in my opinion, her arms are kept close to her body .... Joan seems to be holding one knee...

I strongly blurred some of the body parts to emphasize what I saw ...

[Kraellin]

plant to the left of muriel, yes. and to the left of that, a bench.

hadnt seen the faucet before, but yes, and in doing some work around that, i could even make out some writing above the spigot... 'LAGREB' ?? ... 'LARUL' ?? the manufacturer maybe?

plants on the right, yes. one is a daisy-like flower in full petal.

to the right and up from joan's head, i'm guessing not towels, but a cut rock face of some sort.

i concur on joan's knee now also and am abandoning the idea of a hacked photo...mostly

i cant quite buy the image of muriel yet. what i've been finding for myself is that i tend to use filters that enhance my first impression, thus backing up my own suspicions. i also think that too many filters and so on can give you just about anything. at one point i was seeing flowers growing up the side of the tub still, it's fascinating to see what everyone else is seeing that i didnt. i also get the impression i'm working with one of those images where if you look at it one way you see one thing, but look at it another and you see something else, like the old vase and the woman's head image.

i also did some google searching on that faucet to see if i could find anything that matched. no luck. couldnt find anything relevant on 'LaGreb', 'LaRul', or a few others either

ok, i'm pretty much spending too much time on this one gonna have to wait for a better image.

K.

[deadants]

Thanks Flora for the welcome to the forum. I have been meaning to join in since last year when I first registed on this forum, but I have just been to busy on the genealogy forum http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...ard,298.0.html As I said in one of my first posts, these people are more interested in researcing their family history then learning how to use graphics software so that's what I have been doing, helping them with their old photos that they are finding from lost relatives etc.

Gee that strong blur gives a good idea of what is going on in that tub. She's probably looking for her rubber ducky I'm realy impessed by what you guys are coming up with, I have had to look at this from a whole different angle.

I can't seem to make out the writing on the spigot Kraellin. Could you attempt to highlite it so I can see what you mean. I think the broardleaf plant could possibly be an aspidestra, they were a popular Victorian indoor plant.

I have just sent the photos owner another email asking how the enlarged scan is going, so we will have to wait for the reply. Also I have put a link to this forum on The Rootschat forum so some of it's members who are just starting out in photoshop, can come and join in here. They will learn more from you guys than anything I can teach them.

deadants

[Flora]

You are most welcome deadants!

Glad you decided to join in, and what an interesting place is rootschat.com !!

Originally Posted by Kraellin

...i tend to use filters that enhance my first impression, thus backing up my own suspicions. i also think that too many filters and so on can give you just about anything...

I couldn't agree more .... I've seen it done a lot .... but that's not what I usually do ... I always tend to remain as close as possible to the original .... Given the terrible conditions of this particular image, I did partially 'overblur, but only what was there in first place ....

[Kraellin]

flora,

my apologies. i meant no accusation of anyone or their techniques, unless maybe of myself and when i said the thing about not being convinced of muriel, i simply meant of anyone's version, including my own. it's just too inconclusive yet.

deadants,

i had a pretty good render of the faucet, but killed the pic by mistake in an undo sequence. i'll try and get another. something about sharpen lightly, clarify, high contrast, despeckle, de-interlace, light median filter, light texture preserving smooth...or something like that i've done so many on this pic that i've lost track. i do have one saved that shows it a bit, but not as well as the one i killed. if i cant re-make a better, i'll post the lesser one.

and just as an aside, i was in the store today, Staples. they had photoshop cs...$649. tempting, but not yet

K.

[Kraellin]

ok, i did another one, deadants, and labeled it a bit. i also noticed that where i put the faucet and faucet label text, seems to be over yet another plant. i think that whole back area is a rock wall with garden on it, which would well fit the mediterranean theme we've assigned to this. i'm dying to see how wrong or right we've been on this

K.

p.s. looking at this again just after i posted this last pic, what i was calling a rock wall may well be a planter of some sort, or even a cistern? it seems to have more of a defined shape than just some cut rock.

[Duv]

While it could be outside as Flora suggests, it looks to me like it is in a strongly lit basement. To the left is some machining equipment, perhaps a lathe? There's nothing interfering with the bottom of the tub which suggests it's sitting on concrete. To the right and above the girls head looks like a classic Pot Bellied Stove. Or not.

Cheers
Dave

[deadants]

Hi Duv,
The pot belly stove sounds like a good possability. It makes sense to have a ready supply of hot water on the go.

I have just received the file from Joan in England and this is what she had to say.

It was very interesting to read the discussion on the other forum and it would be fun to see where it is taking them. It certainly is a very faded photo. Attached is a larger scan of the original, if you need a bigger please email.

The picture was taken after 1909 likely in Kent, England where the family was living. The two girls are the half-sisters of my great-grandmother and at the moment I don't see to have dates for them.

Looking forward to seeing what else everyone comes up with !

Thanks
Jessica

So mabe our mediterainan thought have just flown out the window.

Hopefully with the larger version we will see a bit more detail.

deadants

[Caitlin]

Originally Posted by deadants

Hopefully with the larger version we will see a bit more detail.

No attachment here? Will you be posting it?

[deadants]

Hi Caitlin, here it is

deadants
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../TubKids-1.jpg

[Flora]

Kraellin,

no problem .... ... It's just that I feel very strongly about it .... Surely the fact that 'in real life' I am a professional translator, mainly of legal documents, and any kind of 'poetic license' is an absolute NO NO in my job, has greatly influenced my attitude ....

As for our 'Mediterranean' theory .... I fear it has been shattered by Jessica's informations about the probable location!!! ...

Dave,

Your 'Pot Bellied Stove' sounds like a very good possibility .... even though I can't really warm to the basement idea .... I don't know if at that time you could have 'strongly lit basements' .... but what really makes me doubt is the presence of plants and flowers .... Gosh .... this is really getting very interesting!!!! It feels to me like being on a forensic team ....

deadants,

....thank you so much for taking the time to keep us informed and for posting the larger scan ....