cities2forest

[doonee]

racc

the following questions may sound a little silly, but are typical production type questions.

there is *nothing* silly in what you are saying.....
keep it coming ....

1.

How important is it really to have absolute photorealism in the recreated historical photos?

I had asked myself that question.
I came to the conclusion that abstraction is a necessary part of the entire thing, and a great help to define a style and a technique.

To give one example, the area here is topranking in terms of biodiversity (440 species of trees on a single ha. in undisturbed forests, not counting other plants, which is actually world record), and thus approaching these scenes to a level where individual species become identifiable is outright suicidal, in several respects. (3D modelling and scientific acurracy, to only mention a few).

Maintaining a certain distance from the motives is thus simply necessary. ('abstraction as a healthy constraint'.)

Once this far, further abstraction is possible as long as
* it makes the project more makeable
* it still hits the recognition-nail on the head
* it maintains a CONSISTENT STYLE.

I could thus imagine the final pics looking somewhat similar to 'PIXAR Style' etc, (i doubt tho, in this case, that this would make anything any easier), but i could not imagine just one or two looking like that.

I feel that as long as such a style is not defined, the strive for photorealism should remain the guide, since it is helpful to find such a style ....

Do things really get "any better" with artistic rendering ?

Another point is, of course, that photorealism is in vougue and usually (if well done!!) good for PR, so i guess no stone should be left unturned to determine
whether it can or can not 'be done'.


2.

What if you were to present the more recognizable modern image first, then present them with the historical image (real or recreated)?

Yes i think that may be even necessary in some (most) cases.

(To make sure here, when we talk about before/after pairs, the after-twin
is always to be an original modern unaltered photograph.)

I lately did a small presentation for some folks who work for an environmental agency (prime audience, since, in theory, they read maps all the time)
and was a bit surprized how long it took them to get going ...

For urban areas, I also thought of placing small graphic icons (such as the lighthouse in one pic i sent you), or arrows, numbers, etc, and thus marking the notorious sights of scene with a legend. Such a 'legend layer' could very easily be drawn if the POVs are identical for the 2 pics.

would seem to lessen the need for true photorealism since you wouldn't be relying on the historical photo for that recognition.

see point 1.

3.

Concerning the need to have the historical photos look like modern photos...

I thought about this too, since it makes work so much easier and i guess
when historical is available, which it rather rarely is, there is no true need
too colorize the old pics.
Its more important to revert them back in time to even earlier stages, in a nice way.
And, of course, its essential to go to particular location and shoot a modern 'version' of the old photgraph or painting.
Mind that this proess is interesting because it produces triplets, not twins.

What speaks for colorizing is of lesser importancy, i would say it mainly has to do with PR, and since the project is totally non-comercial, that is *never bad*.

Anyways, i feel that this question poses itself (sadly) rarely, since not too much historical footage is out there.
If it does exist, it always shows somewhat already urbanized settings.
For plain forest pics, i would say as a first shot, and a second too, since i had thought about that as well, that artifically aging plain forest pics is 'too cheap'.


BTW, what would you recommend in the case of paintings ?

Racc, although im talking a lot, i stand speachless in front of all your concern and interest !

I hope I've answered all your questions more or less to your satisfaction ...

--Racc

[doonee]

@craig

along with what racc just said, i was thinking a rollover would also be a good way to show the 'before' and 'after', especially if the pov is the same.

for web applications, this is certainly true, but then i would prefer flash, where you roll over by pushing a button. I guess thats something i'll worry about once i have enough of anything i can 'roll over'.
But i got you, craig, when you say that rollovers emphasise the common-ness
of the pair, and thus reduce the need for realism, and i think thats a very good thought.

if they can see their house or surrounding area as a before and after, it personalizes it for them.

Youre right, but its unfortunately not always possible, hardly ever, infact.
I think this 'personalizing effect' may be best reached by choosing 'hardline' postcard motives, which is probably second best.
If I was to do such a thing with San Francisco CA for example, Id have a
pic of Coit Tower and Alcatraz, plus one of the Golden Gate and Sausalito....

(Chinatown at Night would be a pretty funny choice, right ?)

rgds
D

[Racc Iria]

Racc, although im talking a lot, i stand speachless in front of all your concern and interest !

Well... this touches on a few different areas of interest for me. Remember, I got involved on the other thread where you were asking about DEM imaging plugins. I used to tinker with DEM images. Then as the conversation evolved, I realized it was related to this thread.

I've never worked with anyone on another continent like this before, so that's kind of fun. And, I love this type of photo manipulation and don't get to do much of it at work.

Plus (not to go all Green Peace on you), I've always been concerned about the Earth's environment and saddened over the loss of so much rainforest. However, I've never felt like I'd be able to do anything about it. I don't live on the same continent and don't have money to contribute to organizations that are hopefully legitimate. So I guess that in some small way by helping you make people more aware of the issue, I'm helping to contribute to a cause that I never thought I'd be able to participate in.


I am working on the city image you sent me to see what I can do with it. I have a lot of deadlines coming up at work right now, so progress has been slow. But, I am about a quarter of the way finished and the results (so far) are not bad. Once I've finished I'll post it here and if it's what you're looking for I'll tell you what I did. Also, so far I've used no other source pics, just what's in the picture already.

--Racc

[doonee]

Well thats really nice to hear.

For this particular area down here, southern Bahia state, the issue is rather of qualitative than of quantitative nature. In terms of quantity the loss is pretty much a matter of fact, since apr. 90% of the vegetation cover has already been lost, mainly since the 1950s (in terms of quality the few remaining patches still boast high rates of endemism and biodiversity).
Analysing the story of these landscape changes as pieces of Frontier History is not equivalent to actively protecting rainforests. It's rather trying to put the finger on how and why it happens as it does.
Whenever that leads to better understanding of these processes, it may, in the best case, amount to beeing helpful in terms of protection.
Anyways, working with these pictures fascinate me since i've seen how they make people reflect and forget less rapidly, which is already something, I guess.

I am working on the city image you sent me to see what I can do with it. I have a lot of deadlines coming up at work right now, so progress has been slow.

Dont worry, racc, theres no rush.

Best regards and thanks
D

[Racc Iria]

We have similar issues up here in the States, especially near larger cities. We call it "urban sprawl." Forests (although not nearly as biodiverse) and farms are paved over with concrete parking lots, strip malls, and Wal-Marts. Patches of green can get pretty scarce if a city and its suburbs aren't careful.

Actually I read somewhere a while ago that the U.S. actually has more trees now than it did when the Pilgrims arrived back in the 1600s. Only problem is, there is not nearly enough biodiversity when the forest industry replants. And that's what's hurting the ecosystem. And combine that with the urban sprawl....

--Racc

[doonee]

racc ...

(I'm holding back a little here, cause this is a Photoshop thread after all, and im worried about me chatting away too much on history and ecology ....

MD is for Maryland, and thats practically DC, right ?
I could imagine a fair deal of urban sprawl ....

3rd world tropical urban sprawl exists as well, i reckon ..
tho its slighty different looking ..

rdgs
doonee

[Racc Iria]

As a matter of fact, Rockville is about a 5-10 minute drive from the famous/infamous (depending on your feeling about politicians) DC beltway. Baltimore is about 20-25 minutes up the highway from DC. And I live smack-dab between the two.

I'm going to hold off working on the City image until I have the higher res version. No offense, but I'd rather just do this once and give you something you'd actually be able to use if it comes out well.

--Racc

[doonee]

racc
sure ..
plz check your msg. box for details .........
rgds
d

[Racc Iria]

I did, and sent replies. I replied before, too. Don't know what happened.

--Racc

[doonee]

hm, yea, answers to the latter 2 of the last 4 msgs arrived here.
strange.
anyways, pic is in the mail, and ill add more later ...

[Cameraken]

Doonee

I don’t think many people apart from Racc can help with this project But I like, probably others, have been reading and following along.
Please don’t forget to post some results here. I’m sure others would like to see them.

Ken

[doonee]

@cameraken

I like, probably others, have been reading and following along. Please don’t forget to post some results here. I’m sure others would like to see them.

Absolutely, goes without saying....

Actually, im as curious as you ...

Also, if you, or others, have any ideas or suggestions, you're more than welcome to share them...

[Racc Iria]

From Cameraken:
I don’t think many people apart from Racc can help with this project But I like, probably others, have been reading and following along.
Please don’t forget to post some results here. I’m sure others would like to see them.

Well, I finally have doonee's higher res city image that I was working on. I've also got back to the same point I was before and perhaps a little further.

Once, I've finished I will most certainly post a before and after and explain what I did to it.

As it turns out, what doonee wanted to do was nothing more than a photo manipulation. To take a current aerial image and add the forest back in as it might have been in the past. Thus, creating a past and present set of images from the exact same point of view. He plans to create a series of these image sets. I'm, so far, only working on one of them.

I know there are others here at RetouchPro that could help, too. All the discussion about DEM elevation data and 3D renderings from Terragen, etc. were all different possibilities he was considering to help get the manipulation done. So far, I've just used what's available in the source image.

--Racc

[Kraellin]

i fell asleep somewhere back there and they carted me off to the photo art forum.

now, if we're just talking PS or PSP photo-manip, i'll sit up in class and offer what i can

Craig

[doonee]

k,
i just reread the thread and noticed that, infact, the pic that racc is working on is not yet posted, so here it is...

its the same scene as the other cityscape covered with forest-footage, but from a somwhat closer and more lateral angle.

The city is Salvador Bahia Brazil ....

@craig
yes, i guess were "just" talking photo manip right now. .
btw, did you see the foto of how the landscape we discussed earlier
looks today ?

rgds
d