1940 B&W photo, dark detail will not scan

[jim.orrell]

I've done lots of basic photo touching up with photoshop. I'm no professional; my "technique" is scan high, fix what I can without spending too much time. But this time I am really stumped.

I have a large wedding photo of my parents. 1940, black and white, been on show behind glass for many years in a shady room.

There is a lot of detail on the photo that just won't scan. I've tried lots of variations on my canoscan 9900f. For example my father is wearing pin striped trousers, but the stripes just do not appear on the scan, yet there is lots of fine detail in my mother's dress that shows OK.
Copy attached, but the 100K upload limit obviously does not show much detail and the "black" areas show even less detail and so become merged.

The photo does not look faded, but looks as if it has "lost its shine, but I'm sure it was matt originally.

At many angles the photo is not easily seen, especially the dark areas, yet at certain angles the picture looks fine and the detail is perfect.

The only solution I've seen so far is to take a photo of it with light in the right direction, but I don't have a camera that would do it justice.

Is there any preparation that can be done to the photo to stop it "shining"? Any special scanning techniques? Is there a way of changing the light direction in scanners? Are some kinds of scanners better at this than others? Could it simply be a thin layer of dirt, but I'm reluctant to do too much cleaning?

I'm no perfectionist, but I don't like to loose detail when I can see it in front of me.

By the way, great site, why have I not discovered it before.

Jim

[0lBaldy]

Jim, welcome to RetouchPro. Have a look around and enjoy. Nice to have you onboard.

Have you scanned in color with all adjustments turned off?

Even if it is a B/W or Grayscale picture it is always better to scan in color since the color channels may contain details (like the stripes) that might otherwise get lost...
So change to Color, True Color, Vivid Color or whatever color settings you have.
Turn off "Fare" and all dust & scratch removal, and any denoising, despeckle etc.. and off on all automatic settings like levels, brightness/contrast, color, etc.,.

You can also turn the photo 90 degrees and 180 degrees to scan with a different light angle.

[crazyfly1]

What OlBaldy said, and try scanning 2 or 3 times each exposing for different parts of the image. Blend them togather in PS.

[jim.orrell]

Many thanks for those suggestions.

2 things seem to have helped.

<> the scanning in colour (800 dpi), then convert to greyscale; has made a big difference, but not there yet. Is that because the scanner reads 3 different colours from different angles?

<> I cleaned a corner of the photo with a damp cloth which left a grey/brown deposit on the cloth. The scan of the table was almost perfect after that. But I am reluctant to clean the whole picture yet.
- What was the grey/brown deposit I was removing? Is it anything important that would upset the long term stability of the photo?
- If I do clean the photo, what is the best solution/solvent? I've seen references to isopropyl alcohol for cleaning slides and moldy prints, but that sounds a bit strong.

[0lBaldy]

Make sure you have the best scan possible before attempting to clean the photo... you may wind up with a bunch of muddy streaks and/or missing emulsion, or a lot of uneven areas at best..
The deposits left on the cloth could be dust, silver deposits from the emulsion, or mold spores which may have eaten into the face of the photo.. If you are intent on cleaning proceed with extreme caution and make sure you have a back up copy!

I will leave it to others to suggest ways to clean the print.. but it would seem to me that if you can see all the detail as you stated above with the naked eye, then it should be possible to make an acceptable copy without taking the chance of ruining the original.. Remember the first rule in restoration.. Never work on the original! Always work on a copy!... you will always need the original later for something... T'is Murphy's Law!!

forgot to add... don't just convert to grayscale.. check the channels first and see which ones have the most detail then try channel mixer

[jim.orrell]

I've searched further on the web for solutions that might be used for cleaning and it looks like I've got a common case of SILVER MIRRORING. Common it might be but there seems little documentation outside academic circles, and even less for treatment. I did come across this site:
http://www.ischool.utexas.edu/~arfried/glassbib.shtml
which suggests that some of the silver migrates to the surface, hence causing the shiny reflection.

The only cure seems to be to wipe it of with various solutions:
"filtered tap water (pH 7.2), a 1:1 mixture of water and ethyl alcohol, and a dispersion of the proprietary surfactant Kodak Photo-Flo 200 Solution in water (1 drop Photo-Flo to 100 ml. water)."

This might cause fading (or rather show the hidden fading), which might be curable digitally.

Also referenced here:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1227370.html

[crazyfly1]

Jim, if OlBaldy was too subtle, let me try and help. Stop. You’re working with a one of a kind, 68 year old family heirloom. Just stop. Leave the original intact and just do what you can in storing it to assure that no further damage takes place. Your children, nieces, nephews etcetera may like to have the photo. It could happen that in your lifetime scanners will get much better. Photoshop just jumped to 32 bit and there are companies working on 64 bit. You may decide to take the photo to a professional to have it scanned on professional equipment that has much greater capability than yours. Point is, any inadvertent damage you do to your photo is permanent. No one will ever have a better copy of their Great great grandparents wedding than the one that old Grandpa Jim left for them way back in the double zeros.

The photo you posted looks decent for it’s age. Post the best scans you can get on a site outside RP at full resolution and I’m sure someone here can walk you through the edit so you end up with something that you are very happy with.

[Mike]

Might want to read through this

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/pho...ent-photo.html

Also do a search for silvering and read the rest of the threads that cover this.

And I agree with the others, keep your cotton pickers off the original.

[jim.orrell]

Many thanks for the warnings.

Believe it or not I am a very cautious kind of guy. I'm also aware that the research I've seen is not conclusive, which surprises me as it seems to be a well known problem in the "archive" world. And after all it might be something different!

So as I don't need it yet, I'll leave it a while. However, what I do have is 2 sets of 2 photos. I think when granddad died we also inherited his copy. One of the duplicate photos is a in a very marked state so I could eventually experiment with that.

If anyone is interested I've uploaded a better image (just a portion of it to show the offending parts) to:
http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_470lo.jpg
(something else I've learned about).
This is better than the original greyscale scan, as suggested I scanned in colour, and converted to greyscale. The detail is better on this, but nowhere near the original print. The problem with the scan is easily seen where dark meets dark. e.g. dark suit meets dark backcloth. The original has real definition around the suit. I'm sure it's not my scanner as on other photos I have no problem getting the detail.

Thanks for all your help, I've learnt a lot already.

[0lBaldy]

I hate to be a PITA but could you put up the colored scan also?

[jim.orrell]

my pleaseure:

http://img194.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_496lo.jpg

[crazyfly1]

I took a quick try at it. Multiply layer, screen layer and masked back in light areas. Shadow highlights with a high radius on shadows to bring i shading and high contrast. Hi pass sharpen.
Not the best that can be done. It's a fun image to work on, I may give it another try later.
Oh forgot black and white filter and then lens filter put origional tint back.

Oh, and about your scan. You saved at a resolution of 800 ppi. That isn't nessacary. The best your printer might be able to print is 360. You could cut the file size in half.

[0lBaldy]

Jim thanks for the color version.. as I stated above "check the channels first and see which ones have the most detail " this is just the Cyan channel in CMYK mode with a levels adjustment.. a larger version is <here>

How to copy CMYK Cyan Channel into RGB layer (the way I did it anyway!):
With colored layer version selected.. selected Image>Mode>CMYK Color
Select Channels menu
selected the Cyan channel..
Ctrl+A (select all), then Ctrl+C (copy) then back to top and select CMYK to highlight them all.. then back to the layers menu
Shft+Ctrl+N (new Layer) Then Ctrl+V (Paste) the cyan channel should now be copied into the new layer
Image>Mode>RGB (back into RGB Mode)
It looks like a good place to start your restoration.. Sooooo, Continue restoration..

A large PSD showing ALL 10 different channels with levels adjustment applied is <here> on Rapidshare (click "Free" then wait) when time is up follow instructions.. (83752KB) 80MB Looong download time!!

[Kraellin]

ok, NEVER wipe your old photos with anything!

hi jim, and welcome to RP

as ol baldy said, make a good scan of your photo BEFORE doing any cleaning attempts!

use canned air (the kind without the oil lubricant in it) or use a VERY soft brush such as a very fine, soft lens brush and if you use the brush rather than the air, dont press down very hard.

in the event that you wash the photo, do NOT wipe it off. again, use the canned air (or equivalent) to blow it off. even a soft brush is not recommended if you've used anything wet on the surface of the image.

the older the photo, the more important these things are. you might think because you can wipe a new photo off with no problem that the same would be true with an older one. nope! ok, most folks already know that, but it needs to be said anyways papers, emulsions, and yes, even tintypes lose cohesion to each other with age. emulsions peel, get eaten by fungus, get loaded with dust and dried out to flaking by the sun and lack of humidity (yes, a little humidity can actually be good for a photo if it's always exposed to the air).

paper types varied throughout the history of photography. some werent even true papers and some were metal or glass. emulsions also varied. to be truly safe in cleaning, if you're not a conservator, find one and get a professional cleaning or at least a consultation on what can be done.

i am NOT a conservator! so, anything your conservator says take that over anything i've said!

judging from your image posts my guess is you've got both dirt and a tiny bit of surface damage. the damage doesnt appear to be very bad yet, but definitely keep your fingers off and do not wipe with anything. air or brush only and when i say 'air' i dont mean a tornado blast from a high powered air compressor

[crazyfly1]

I tried again. Pretty much same as before only with different settings.
I reserve the right to try again .

[pixelzombie]

Originally Posted by jim.orrell

This is better than the original greyscale scan, as suggested I scanned in colour, and converted to greyscale. The detail is better on this, but nowhere near the original print. The problem with the scan is easily seen where dark meets dark. e.g. dark suit meets dark backcloth. The original has real definition around the suit. I'm sure it's not my scanner as on other photos I have no problem getting the detail.

Thanks for all your help, I've learnt a lot already.

if it's a one of a kind print, spend the money for a scan from a high-end flatbed scanner, you will be astounded at the difference...

[Kraellin]

you're running a little dark there, crazyfly, on both of them. the guy's suit is blending into the background. try a levels, curves or brightness/contrast adjustment layer.

[crazyfly1]

Originally Posted by Kraellin

you're running a little dark there, crazyfly, on both of them. the guy's suit is blending into the background. try a levels, curves or brightness/contrast adjustment layer.

I agree. It's tuff trying to take out the sivering but not darken the suit too much. I'll try again tomarrow.

[0lBaldy]

Jim, because this is only a small cropped sample of the original I did:
no cloning
no healing
no sharpening

I used the magenta channel and Imagenomic Noiseware Plugin at the default settings on the first..
and used the Cyan Channel with Imagenomic Noiseware, default also, for the second..

(there is a community edition of Noiseware that is free and a stand alone.. <here>)

Hope this helps!

~Magenta~ Cyan ~

[jim.orrell]

Again, thanks for the suggestions. I'm afraid some of the techniques are beyond me at present, but it will give me some practical ideas for training.

Jim

[0lBaldy]

Jim at RetouchPro we will help you if we can..
You have my curiosity up now and I would like to see the finished project from you!
Have fun, enjoy your time here, any problems just ask as many questions as you want!
What techniques are you having trouble with..?

[Kraellin]

i had a go at this, also.

[philbach]

I quickly improved the photo by using the image that was scanned in color. Swiching to CYMK mode and then using a channel mixer adjustment layer. I found that output to grayscale and 100% Cyan and 68% Magenta with zero to the other parameters improved the print.