A Reflection Problem

[hillfolk]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here. I've looked around for a problem similar to mine but haven't seen anything. An older relative has a couple large, 13" x 19", photos. They are behind bubble glass and I'm afraid to remove the glass and possibly damage an irreplacable image. I thought I could take a photo with a digital camera and the problem would be solved but didn't realize how badly reflection would play a part. Absolutely could not take an indoor photo with or without flash as photo lost too much detail. Placed outside in direct sunlight long enough to snap a couple of photos and this is about the best I could come up with.

I am totally new to Paint Shop Pro version 8, it is my daughter's program. I have used Adobe Photodeluxe 3.1 for years to repair tears and such but my attempt at removing the reflection from this photo turned out very badly. Is there any hope of removing the reflection without sacrificing too much quality? The originals were professionally cleaned approximately 15 years ago so the original is very clear. I wish that a photo outside the frame had been taken then but I was unaware that the cleaning was being performed so I could not request.

Any hints or help would be appreciated. Here are a couple links to the photos in question. I could probably get more photos taken if needed but am still extremely reluctant to try and remove photos from behind glass.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...ecPSmith10.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...JaneCouch2.jpg

[hillfolk]

Forgot to mention that the eye problem in the picture of the lady is caused by a glass eye and doesn't require touching up. The spots are caused by bubbles in the glass itself but those are reflected clouds in her hairdo.

[cscalfani]

This appears to be a more of a capturing problem.

My first thoughts would be "How do I remove the frame without removing the picture from behind the glass?"

If that's possible, then I'd test another picture (one that isn't as important) with the glass from it's frame on a flatbed scanner to see if I could get a good non-reflective scan.

Another thought is can I setup my camera on a tripod for an extremely long exposure with very little light (not from a flash) and put a black cloth over the picture and the camera during the exposure.

The real trick to solve is how not to get reflections in the glass and still light the image.

So if nothing else worked, I'd take the picture in a dark room near a blank white wall and take the picture with a light source off axis so that the light reflects off the glass but not back into the lens of the camera.

The easiest way to do this is to setup a light let's say the right side of the camera. To the left side is my white, blank, wall. My camera's on a tripod and ready to go.

Then I'd look through the lens (if it's an SLR) and see if I can see the light.

For a point and shoot, just take a test shot.

Then I'd move the light until it's reflection is not showing up in the shot.

One other thing, if you can control the light from spilling onto the camera that would be great, otherwise it'll reflect into the glass.

This is going to take some experimentation. I wouldn't expect to solve it the first time and I'd also expect to have to invent some unique solutions to get the best capture.

Good luck

[hillfolk]

OK, that leads me to believe I might be better off attempting to remove the glass. It had to be off when the photo was restored so they would have dealt with any contact issues and hopefully set up something to keep it from occuring again. If it was my photo I would almost be willing to at least "see" if the pictures would come apart easily but as it is not I hesitate again. I will think on changing the light source direction problem and see what I can think of. I had considered using a lower light setting to try to overcome the issue but am not a photographer so quickly decided I was out of my depth.

[Kraellin]

before you risk wrecking the photo, there are more threads about doing this sort of thing. do a search on this forum, the restoration forum. i seem to recall something about indirect lighting and shooting from an offset to avoid reflections. so, do a search first.

[hillfolk]

I saw a post about reducing silvering that involved "double polarized light" I wonder if that would reduce lightsource reflection? I am totally not a photoghrapher so I don't have the right kind of camera but could possibly find someone locally who could take the photos.

[secretagents]

Try shooting with a polarizing filter maybe ? I am not an expert but that's the kind of thing they are supposed to remove or am I wrong ?

[0lBaldy]

Polarize both lights with polarized film and the lens.. (lights vertical and the lens horizontal).. use a f-stop for best depth of field.. do not shoot at an angle.. make sure things are lined up and the center of the lens is at the same level as the center of the photos and parallel to the pictures..

You might also check this thread which discusses the curved glass..

[hillfolk]

I am definately going to have to find someone who is more photography savy than I. I have heard of f-stop but that is about the extent of it. Maybe I should see about having it professionally done offsite. I hate to haul the photos around but I only have a point and shoot digital camera.

I did read up on tenting to reduce glare, sounded like something I might employ in one fashion or another to stop the reflections from overpowering the actual picture. I will think on things awhile.

I have seen several demos here that I think would help the picture quality without resorting to buying new camera gear or possibly harming the photos by trying to remove them. Some covering manipulating photos with varying degrees of fadedness and some techniques on manipulating in certain color schemes that help balance clarity without affecting the color scheme. Maybe manipulating the photos in grayscale before colorizing would reduce the visibility of the reflective images. Right now I just don't know enough to be sure.

[Kraellin]

i think you're on the right trail with the double polarizing.

[pafcook]

There are some basic methods to avoid reflections that work for flat glass. Mostly, place two lights at 45 degrees off center, and the camera straight head on.

The curved glass may make that approach less successful. If so, take lots of photos with the lights at various angles, and then some areas will be clear in some shots and not others. Build the final version in photoshop, one pair of layers at a time.

I've never done it, so count this as a guess and a speculation, but it might just work. Obviously, getting the photo out of the frame would be best. The 45-degree rule still applies.

[Verywierd]

The reflection comes from the environment. I am only speculating, but the reverse of a photographic light tent might help. It is like trying to photograph fish in an aquarium.

In either a completely dark room, or under a heavy light proof black cloth, place the photo frame on a flat surface (the floor would do) place two light sources (a very small camera flash unit with and infrared trigger or some kind of directional light like an LED torch) right up firmly against the glass of the frame at opposite sides. Fix them in place with tape, blu tack, plasticine etc. You may need to cover the lens of the lights with several/many layers of white tissue paper to reduce the brightness and "hot spots" on the pictures near to the lights. With the camera on a steady tripod, take your photos. With the lights dimmed down so much, you may need to use fairly long exposures. If you are using a digital camera it should be easy (and inexpensive) to take some shots and experiment to find the best exposure setting. Good luck.