Historic Restore Project needs Help

[twtracy]

Dug Nelson suggested I post this here:
I have an original framed 1906 photo of the 'Runes of San Francisco', taken from a kite (the 'Lawrence Captive Airship') high over Nob Hill. A copy of this photo is in the National Archives, but it is quite beat up with 3 fold lines. My photo is unblemished as new, except for the brown color changes of age.
I do not want to sell it, or release a copy for others to exploit. I like the fact that I have such a treasure. Just see it restored for preservation, and pass it on to family. I am 81 with early Alzheimer's and trying to organize wile I can. Have PS4, and Coral suite. Trouble remembering how to use them and looking for help, trial and error would take more time then I may have left. Vi sable portion is 24" x 30", so appreciate will need to photograph it. Help here also.
Have spent considerable time in site looking for relevant help, but not find. Hope you might lead me source if information I need.
Your consideration will be greatly appreciated, Tom

[Sweetlight]

TW, Show us what you have, maybe some of us can do work as a group on it, I just don't know how bad it is til you show me.

Chris

[0lBaldy]

Tom, Welcome to RetouchPRO Hope you enjoy your stay here and make lots of friends. have fun!

Hope we can help you

Do you have a flatbed scanner? if so scan it several times making sure that each scan overlaps some (so the individual scans can be put back together in Photoshop).. Scan in color at the highest resolution with everything automatic turned off.. (color adjustments, ICE.. dust/scratch/spot remover, brightness/contrast, etc... all OFF)

Attach one of the representative scans here so we can better assist you..

If you use Photoshop you can post fairly large pictures which are under 100k using the 'save for web' function in Photoshop as described here: Size, Quality and/or Format your Attached Images.. (Click here)

How to attach Files/Images to your Posts or Threads: (Click here)

If you want to post a larger resolution that is over 100K then you can host your image elsewhere and attach a link in the thread, but also please attach an under 100K version (so the thread remains useful in the future, regardless of external links).

Other Hosts if you do not have your own site: ImageVenue.com (3Meg max, free) pixentral.com (2Meg max, free) photobucket.com (1 Meg max free, 5 Meg PRO) mediafire.com (100 Meg per file, free) post a link in the thread to the site that is hosting the larger image.

[twtracy]

Hi Cris, absolutely no doubt that the Group could do the job, and have fun with it. But the problem is that the print seems to be the only known copy other then the Nation Arcives. Lots of info on how it was taken on the web. Could be of great $ value. A glass negative plate of Ansel Adams was just found and valued at $20 MIL. If I put a digital copy up for the public, then copies go all over the place and what I have is no longer unique. Its not for sale, just want to save it if I can. Lived in HI and found it 60 yrs ago, way back up in Monoa Valley (just jungle then), in a collapsed shack, in the middle of a banana patch. All I wanted was the wood frame. There was a poster in it. When I took off the back, the photo had been turned around and used to hold the poster. Been in my den ever since. Just recently became curious about the ' Lawrence Airship' and discovered what I had. Just dumb luck.

[tbergphoto]

Tom
Not sure how we can help you.
Sounds like photoshop may be too difficult for you - perhaps you can find someone local to work with you (so you don't have to let the print out of your posession)?
Is there a college or university close? I bet there would be a grad student or someone trustworthy that could advise you....

[mistermonday]

Tom, scan the photo or take a picture of it with a digital camera. Crop a section of the photo which is representative of the faded or stained area. Post that section or sections here by attaching it to this thread. That way you will not be exposing the entire photo. Many folks here will be glad to offer suggestions or show examples how retouch it. Then you or one of your family members who can apply the same techniques on the entire image.
Regards, Murray

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by twtracy

Just see it restored for preservation, and pass it on to family.

Hope you might lead me source if information I need.
Your consideration will be greatly appreciated,

Tom

Tom, I have some feelers out... so, if and when I hear back from the Museum of Art staff that deal with old photos, I will get back with you about preservation steps to take...

In the meantime... beware of fluctuations of humidity, it will give you problems with cracking and curling, and mold growth acceleration. The photo should be stored in a protective archival type sleeve and kept in an area where the temperature is around 60 degrees. Control the humidity in its storage by the use of whatever means is avaliable (Silica gel beads desiccant packed in a vapor-permeable plastic to control local humidity, might help here) Try to keep the RH at around 40%. The photo when displayed should be kept out of intense light--natural or artificial. Of course normal precautions like handling the photo sparingly with gloved hands making sure not to bend or crease it always applies.

Now the question is... Do you want just the original preserved.... and/or... copied so the copy can be displayed and the original preserved and stored properly?

[Kraellin]

i agree with OlBaldy. have a conservator look at it asap and make sure you preserve the original with whatever care the conservator recommends. you might also ask the conservator to do a digital scan and make sure they give you a copy and that they destroy/erase the scan from their computer.

and, being that you dont wish to post a copy of the image here, you might point us to the national archive site where the other exists so we can see what you're talking about.

[0lBaldy]

I think this fits the criteria and might be the picture from the archives

[Kraellin]

that sure fits the description, right down to the four fold marks

[TommyO]

Tom,
We certainly appreciate your giving us the opportunity to chime in on such a wonderful heirloom. I agree with the others on some points, but started differing on some of the next steps to take.

I feel there may be some benefit for you to do two things. 1. Get an informal appraisal by sending a photograph over the internet to one of the big named art houses. Hopefully, one that mentions they will do free appraisals if you give them first look. That's Ok. 2. Have a good local photographer take some very clean high resolution photographs of the image for your own personal preservation and keepsake purposes (you keeps rights to those photographs).

With an appraisal in hand, you can then determine a.) do you sell the image and let them take on all the preservation work; or b.) do you not sell the image and you must then take on the preservation work at your cost.

Preservation is not cheap at all. You could easily spend $2k to $10k to preserve an image that size, then $2k again every 5 years. So, unless you just can't stand to sell the image, you should sell it and keep a very good reproduction in your home for sentimental reasons. When inking the deal, you could also ask that your family be given origination rights to the image in all signage or plaques they post at the photo. They are going to ask you to sign away all rights, leans, etc, to the image. You will have plenty of opportunity to insert your request for origination rights.

Hope this helps and let us know if we can help guide you more on some of these other ideas.

Here are two links that may be interesting to read. They also contain other links to good conservators.

The American Institute For Conservation
Northeast Document Conservation Center

[twtracy]

Gentleman, I am Overwhelmed and very Grateful for your responses. Yes, the project is to big for me. One of the big problems of dealing with AZ is Apathy. Have many hobbies and a great many unfinished projects. However your enthusiasm has lit a fire under my butt that is burning a hole in that blanket of Apathy. Thank you, you have given me a challenge.
The mind of an AZ is dying, the connection to memories and ability are being severed. However, the mind continues to create new memory cells that are ignored and just wilt, unless harnessed. There was a time that I could not dial the telephone. I discovered 'Plasticity' of the brain. The old brain is dyiing, so harness the new. Use it..or Lost it. Have BS & MS in computer science, but all is locked away. I use the computer to provide the projects to keep the mind challenged, active and functional. A person is told they have AZ, incurable, no help with cooping for them, friend & family takeover for the poor devils & they just gives up and deteriorate. What else can they do? I refused to let this happen. I have lectured AZ patients & caregivers, offering to help those who want to improve the quality of their lives. No one has ever accepted. This is certainly not the proper venue for such a lecture, But you will have family and friends who will get AZ. Encourage them to learn something they have never done. New learning creates new pathways & new memories. Also helps create new pathways to the old memories that had been lost.
So, I now have a most valuable new challenge. Have photo eqpt, 8 mg ram, CS4, lots of time to make and correct mistakes & figure things out.
Thanks again, will keep you informed.
Tom

[0lBaldy]

The Museum of Art suggested this website for general care, and restoration of old photos... Care and conservation of old photographs along with the restoration page. Also, there are numerous other links on the site which can be very informative. They also suggested you seek out a conservator of photos in your area so that if anything is to be done, it can be done properly...

[twtracy]

Hello Gentlemen,

Ref: Cris,
Sorry for delayed response, learning my way around a site of this type. Have never entered a group site of any kind before. You were the first to respond and I have been amazed with the response.

This update is for all who have so kindly responded, so perhaps you could spread the word, as I don't know how, yet.

I have decided to make available a section of the print for those interested. The condition being that they return to me a copy of their work, and the details of their changes. I can then learn by duplicating there schedule , until I can obtain the same results. They may keep the copy I had sent them.

To that end I tried unsuccessfully to photograph the print within frame: reflection. Then removed frame, removed matboard, attempted to remove print from backing expecting to find an ID of printer or framer. However print has bonded itself to the backing (age, heat, pressure, ?) and is quite brittle. I have taken snapshots for you and will post something tomorrow.

As was suggested I will begin to scan the print, as high res as possible. It is a scan that I will make available. Have had this scanner for some time but have never hooked it up, so will have a learning curve to get over.

For OlBaldy (fellow sufferer, keep covered or spend a fortune sending your dermatologist on several topical vacations)
Your Tip: “Scan in Color” Thanks, never would have considered it., as print is B&W. Close call.
Hawaii and now Florida so unable to overcome the high humidity and heat. My options are limited as I now survive on Food Stamps. At one time I had a considerable museum level collection oriental art and wood carvings. After turning them over to my daughter, she had the painting professionally preserved. We gave no thought as to the value of this pic. I kept it simply because I liked it. As I had found it, it was free and If foolishly never added any additional value to it. Intend to now turn it over to her for safe keeping. Many great suggestions, thanks again.

Ref: tbergphoto.
Appreciate your concern. Important that I work it out myself, as explained prior. Much obliged, Tom

Ref: mistermonday.
Have adapted your excellent suggestion, as noted above. Took me awhile to accept the sharing, but it is a fair exchange. I never imagined that there would ever be such interest. Mahalo.

Ref: Kraellin
You found it, good hunting. Suggest that you Google the “Laurence Captive Airship” and see how they took the pic. Quite a feat in 1906 considering they used kites and a rare 19 inch focal length DAGAR lens made in 1905.
This is a dramatic example man positive progress:

“In 1905, George R. Lawrence, a photographer in the Chicago area, captured the attention of the US Army and Navy with his methods of aerial photography. President Theodore Roosevelt, fresh from the Spanish-American War, requested the US Army and Navy ask George R. Lawrence to demonstrate his “Captive Airship” method of aerial photography for potential military uses”

“After demonstrations to the US Government, both on land and from ships, the Navy report indicated that Lawrence’s methods had promise and the US Government should acquire rights to the concept and further develop the technique for military use.
”Lawrence, however, continued to improve a “train of kites” system and had his “Captive Airship” working when the 1906 San Francisco earthquake struck. Using a sequence of kites and guywires, a camera platform stabilized with three outstretched booms, and an electrical device to trigger the shutter, he was able to take some of the now famous aerial panoramic photos of San Francisco in ruins after the earthquake and fire. “
"In 1900, he built the world's largest camera to take a photograph of the Alton Limited locomotive, owned by the Chicago & Alton Railway. The camera weighed 1400 pounds (640 kg) and used a 4.5′ × 8′ glass-plate negative.

So gentlemen, tis all for now. Aloha, Tom

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by twtracy

Gentleman, I am Overwhelmed and very Grateful for your responses. Yes, the project is to big for me. One of the big problems of dealing with AZ is Apathy. Have many hobbies and a great many unfinished projects. However your enthusiasm has lit a fire under my butt that is burning a hole in that blanket of Apathy. Thank you, you have given me a challenge.
The mind of an AZ is dying, the connection to memories and ability are being severed. However, the mind continues to create new memory cells that are ignored and just wilt, unless harnessed. There was a time that I could not dial the telephone. I discovered 'Plasticity' of the brain. The old brain is dyiing, so harness the new. Use it..or Lost it. Have BS & MS in computer science, but all is locked away. I use the computer to provide the projects to keep the mind challenged, active and functional. A person is told they have AZ, incurable, no help with cooping for them, friend & family takeover for the poor devils & they just gives up and deteriorate. What else can they do? I refused to let this happen. I have lectured AZ patients & caregivers, offering to help those who want to improve the quality of their lives. No one has ever accepted. This is certainly not the proper venue for such a lecture, But you will have family and friends who will get AZ. Encourage them to learn something they have never done. New learning creates new pathways & new memories. Also helps create new pathways to the old memories that had been lost.
So, I now have a most valuable new challenge. Have photo eqpt, 8 mg ram, CS4, lots of time to make and correct mistakes & figure things out.
Thanks again, will keep you informed.
Tom

Yeee!! HAAAAA!! Three cheers for you Tom! HOOT! HOOT! HOOT! Keep on Keeping On!! Way To GO!

Positive outlook deserves positive feedback, You are an inspiration to us all!

Keep up the good work.... You Da Man!!

[twtracy]

Thank you, I appreciate that. As I live in Ocala,FL, may I inquire where in FL are you?

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by twtracy

Thank you, I appreciate that. As I live in Ocala,FL, may I inquire where in FL are you?

0lBaldy is in Kansas... 'Sweetlight' (Chris) and a bunch of others here at RetouchPRO are in Florida...

[twtracy]

Anyone in FL close to Ocala that I might visit for help?

Have taken Pics with Kodak Z740, doc setting, looks good. Now trying to send you (1) full print & (1) close up.

Have: Epson Perfection 4490 Photo Scanner, Never used it so will today install, learn and scan print for you. Keep you informed.
Aloha Tom

[Kraellin]

well, i love restoring old black and whites, so i took the one OB posted the link to and worked on that one. this is basically my standard routine with the exception that i did some patching on the fold lines and dark shadows in the sky before doing a fade correction. and after the fade correction it was back to standard fare of clone, airbrush and push. oh, and i used a hue/sat adjustment layer to take out the color.

[aartist]

Nice job Kraellin!

[twtracy]

Wow Kraellin, that is fantastic. Never would have thought it possible to do what you have done. Now I know what to aim for when I attempt it.

Finely have the scanner setup and working. Tomorrow I will scan the original print at: 4800 x 9600dpi, 48 bit color, and save as TIFF. Not sure what I'm doing but that seems to be the max available. Will end up with 8 sections. Plan to make available asap the center portion which has the large bldg surrounded by rubble. Expect it will take forever for me to patch them together.

[mistermonday]

Craig, nice job! And you are an inspiration.
Best regards,
Murray

[0lBaldy]

That looks GREAT Craig!

You made me go to my Recycle Bin.. because I had already done it and dumped it.. (I do em and dump em) any how, I had not cleaned out the bin yet so... I revived this copy to post and show some subtle differences in my approach..

I did a single image HDR before repairing the seams, desaturating, and sharpening.. it seems to have really brought out all the smoke and dust that was going on... sort of makes you wish there was a before picture to compare all the destruction... I tried to straighten the horizon but it just lost toooo much of the sides after cropping to clean the edges... so I left it slanted (which is better for a restoration any way)

[twtracy]

Attempt to upload snapshots ?? but failed, sorry

[Kraellin]

thanks, aartist

thanks, murray

thanks, OB

tom,

you asked me in a private message to say more about my process. i do this so much that i tend to just say 'my standard fare' any more. but, i'll post what i remember.

i start by duplicating the base image in another layer over the base/background image.

i then add a blank raster layer over these.

in this image, i started with the clone tool with the blank layer active. i generally start cloning at a fairly small size and an opacity of somewhere between 40 and 60%. i think i used 40%. the idea with cloning is to draw image data from one area and clone it into another area you want to fix or change. but, if you have the opacity up too high the cloned material will be harder to blend into the new area. so, keep the opacity down and dab in a little at a time and draw from many surrounding areas to keep things looking natural.

with your image i started on the sky. all that dark gray seemed more like photo damage rather than a natural occurrence. i took out most of the dark and smoothed these in by dropping the opacity down to as low as 28%. this allows one to blend cloned material into the surrounding area easier.

by using the same technique, including a new blank layer over all the others, but a smaller brush, i then cloned out the fold lines. i also used the 'push' brush, which in photoshop is like the smudge tool set to heavy. the push tool i use to blend things in tight spaces.

after those two areas, i did a 'copy merge' and 'paste to new layer' to put all these other layers into one. i then used the 'fade correction' filter to bring out the image more. it generally gives more contrast. i think i had it set to about 40.

over the top of this i added a new blank raster layer and i went back to cloning, pushing and airbrushing. airbrushing is similar to a real airbrush in that you are painting information into the layer. those three tools are my 'standard fare' in doing black and white restores. i worked on the ground. this was somewhat difficult because i was hardly ever sure if i was wiiping out real smoke in the image or just old smudges and blurs and such. there, you just have to take your best shot and hope you get it somewhat right. this is why the highest resolution a person can get on the image is so important. it helps to show the difference in real photo and damage.

to do the hills i added yet another blank raster layer and used airbrush almost exclusively. i set the brush to no higher than 3%, in other words, very low. i want to add just a little at a time and then i gausian blur this layer to spread the 'paint' out more evenly. i then take the eraser tool and erase any overflow into unwanted areas. i may also even erase some of the paint in places i want it just to make it look better. the eraser is set to no higher than 5%.

i then did the foreground using all three tools, airbrush, push and clone. there was a lot of tiny work and i'll also use the eraser on some of this at times. your best friend here is the undo button. i have my undo button set for unlimited undo's so i could conceivable undo 1000 actions.

once i had things fairly good, i did another copy merge and paste to new layer. i duplicated this and ran a hue/saturation adjustment layer over this and reduced the saturation to almost nothing. i rarely go to complete desaturation, but on this one i went close.

after that, it was a lot of touch-up. the borders needed work. i did this with the push brush. i drag the brush just a tiny little ways then hold down the shift key and move the cursor all the way along the border and set it so when i click the left mouse button the push effect will drag in a straight line from where i initially set it to where i ended setting it. this is very handy for making straight lines with an effect.

there were several blank raster layers in this final touch-up. i set the clone to 28 to 32% and clone-painted the sky smoother. clone-painting is where you use the clone tool like a paint brush, holding it down and moving it around. normally, i use the clone tool by dabbing, but in clone painting, i do the above. this smooths out bad transitions from earlier work and makes things look a bit smoother and cleaner.

all of this really boils down to some very simple actions. i often use a contrasting filter, in this case the fade correction, to bring out more detail. i follow this with clone, airbrush and push. i'll sometimes also use a brightness/contrast or a 'clarify' filter, both of which are used to help 'find the image'. if you can bring out the detail very early on, it makes working on the rest of it much easier. in your image, i decided to veer from this a tiny bit. the gray in the clouds was obvious and so were the fold lines, to i did most of the correction to those first. then, i brought out the image more with the fade correction filter.

so, find the image, then fix it. that's the basics.

i hope that helps.

if there are any terms up there you dont know, ask. it's entirely ok. bear in mind also that photoshop and other programs wont necessarily have the exact same tools and filters as paint shop pro (psp) (which is what i used). but i like psp for its easier interface, simple tools and easier learning curve. and, it does have a couple things photoshop doesnt have. but, since you have cs4, i'd go with that. folks here can translate psp tools into photoshop pretty easily.

the image isnt that hard to work on. it's a fairly good one to start on. there are some tricky areas, but there are also some easy areas you can affect in a big way relatively quickly, like the fade correction.

cloning, airbrush and push are all tools that take practice. the tendency is to try to do too much at one time. that was something i had to constantly fix when i was first learning. turn those opacities and sizes down and take some time to do it right. it'll pay off. lots of folks are looking for the quick fix on restores. i do too, but i've had to recognize that to do it right you often have to do it manually. that doesnt mean you cant use automated filters and such, but you do need to know when one process isnt working where another might. all of that takes practice and observation and like i said in the private message, learn each tool... practice, practice, practice!

[twtracy]

Very grateful Craig, Tom

[Kraellin]

you're welcome

i do expect you to post some of your work now

[twtracy]

I honestly have been trying Craig, over and over. As had been suggested, I have taken a picture of the entire print, and a closeup of the hotel. They are now in PS, untouched and excellent quality. But have been unable to transfer. Can't understand why. Decided to let the problem rest and tackle the scanning of the print. Tonight downloaded the Epson drivers, etc. for the Win7 64. Tested OK for trial scan, Home Mode. Tomorrow must learn to set up using the Professional Mode to get max resolution and total control of scan settings. My assumption is that more is better, and you can downsize to whatever you want, but not up. There will be 8 scans, in TIFF, so very big files. Will let you put them together as would take me months at the success rate I'm working at. It is my observation that my print is much clearer that those on the web. You may recall that I did not intent to make the copy available. However, you gentleman have been so generous with your assistance, this is my only way of saying Thank You. This project is the only thing I'm working on, but the mind doesn't retain the learning so thing go slowly. It is the Challenge of trying that is important to me, not the final result. However I do feel very much indebted to you gentleman to get you the results. Hang in there with me, and have patience.
Aloha, Tom (trying again: Sun 2:24 am)

Found the problem: "Your file of 561.8 bytes exceeds"", just one item. So, tomorrow will revise file size (another thing to learn, another delay)
Better to have tried and failed, if you learned from it.

[0lBaldy]

If you want to post a larger resolution that is over 100K then you can host/upload your image elsewhere and attach a link in the thread.

Other Hosts: ImageVenue.com (3Meg max, free) pixentral.com (2Meg max, free) photobucket.com (1 Meg max free, 5 Meg PRO) mediafire.com (100 Meg per file, free) post a link in the thread to the site that is hosting the larger image.

[twtracy]

If this works, thanks to Flora and Jeaniesa. Tis quite fantastic the time and effort that you folks have put in to provide help.

These are still photos: full size and closeup. Camera on tripod as recommended. Wow, what a struggle to get this far.

Miracle of miracles, it worked. Feel like a new father. Aloha Tom